1. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

Why Palpatine returning makes sense.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Adam812, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    3,878
    Likes Received:
    15,095
    Trophy Points:
    142,767
    Credits:
    15,174
    Ratings:
    +19,016 / 59 / -39
    I'm sure it was used before, but I remember hearing "Skywalker Sage" first around the time of Rogue One's release.

    I like the idea, as it sort of elevates those movies while allowing for other Star Wars content to exist without feeling like it's infringing on the original stuff.

    That said, as much as I liked the Sequel Trilogy... TROS didn't particularly feel like it ended the Skywalker saga. Leia was in it a bit (and handled relatively well, IMO) and Palpatine was a wise choice as a villain in that regard... but I can't help but feel that even with granting more time to the new cast, Luke was pretty badly underused in this movie... though I guess that's getting off topic.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  2. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Posts:
    1,797
    Likes Received:
    4,184
    Trophy Points:
    12,317
    Credits:
    4,299
    Ratings:
    +6,472 / 31 / -9
    Yeah, I don’t recall ever hearing the phrase until Kathleen Kennedy’s interview back in 2015 when she was distinguishing between the episodes and the spinoffs.

    "The Saga films focus on the Skywalker family saga...The stories follow a linear narrative that connects to the previous six films. The Force Awakens follows Return of the Jedi and continues that generational story. The Anthology films offer opportunities to explore fresh characters, new storylines and a variety of genres inside the Star Wars universe." Source

    I never ever personally considered the hexalogy ‘the Skywalker story’. It was just ‘Star Wars’ to me. But when you’re talking about diversifying a product, branding becomes pretty important. The ST works to reengage the consumer by continuing the familiar line while also concluding it so as to broaden the scope. Increase marketability. Makes good business sense.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  3. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2019
    Posts:
    371
    Likes Received:
    691
    Trophy Points:
    4,067
    Credits:
    1,065
    Ratings:
    +981 / 14 / -1
    I totally respect your opinion, so I'm not attacking you, FYI. What do you see in TFA or TLJ that hint at Palpatine returning? For me, it is what you mentioned: a bizarre, out-of-left field event. I haven't watched TFA in years, but I did watch TLJ not long before TROS came out. I didn't see anything that hinted that Palpatine would return or that he was even a factor in the time period of the ST.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  4. Porco Azzurro

    Porco Azzurro Force Attuned

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2019
    Posts:
    418
    Likes Received:
    8,222
    Trophy Points:
    15,942
    Credits:
    3,923
    Ratings:
    +8,893 / 1 / -1
    I know you’re not attacking anyone, it’s all good :)

    Some examples (a lot of Snoke stuff!):

    Kylo’s statement “The Supreme Leader is wise” had people discussing Plagueis because of “the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise” that Palpatine told Anakin. Obviously now we know Snoke was a puppet of Palpatine this quote still has resonance, arguably even more so, because we know Kylo ends up as Supreme Leader, and Palpatine presumably contained Plagueis within him (in fact that whole scene in ROTS is incredible to consider again now and serves as hints for his return even then, before he’d been defeated or even become Emperor!).

    Likewise, the music behind Snoke was noted to be very like the music at the ‘Squid Opera’ of the same scene in ROTS. I think that functions very nicely as a little nod at who is behind Snoke in retrospect.

    Snoke’s arrogant statement in TLJ “I cannot be defeated” surely is worth reconsidering now too. It always seemed like he knew something we didn’t. Perhaps he did! I am still personally a little unsure about how directly Snoke was controlled - was he independent but brain-washed into serving Palpatine? Was he literally a puppet, speaking Palpatine’s own words, controlled with dark Sith powers? Whatever the case, if Palpatine made Snoke, it was surely with the purpose of holding onto own power while he bided his time for a full comeback. I’m getting off the point a little. But it strikes me Palpatine had a very similar overconfidence to Snoke.

    Another thing is the use of Snoke as a holographic projection. Of course we see other characters as holos, but it is notable I think that we see the likes of senior bad guys like Kylo and Hux interacting with Snoke as a hologram, because that is something we saw a lot from Palpatine/Sidious in the previous trilogies. It’s in his M.O. to not meet people in person too much. And in TRoS we see him discussing things with Pryde as a holo.

    I’m not saying any of these things are individually slam-dunk, concrete ‘smoking guns...’ - (how could they be when it wasn't a definite thing?... of course...) but I am saying they all add up to working as hints towards the eventual reveal.

    Also, let’s consider the First Order. Some complained that they were too similar to the Empire in terms of uniforms, ship designs, the fact Starkiller Base was like ‘yet another Death Star’... and one can partly explain this away by the remnants of the Empire being the basis of the FO, sure, but doesn’t it make more sense that the ultimate reason the FO is still so Empire-like in so many ways is that it was still being secretly shaped by the same mind (or I guess minds?!)?

    What we saw in previous films was an Empire that liked a lot of black and white with occasional red flourishes. These splashes of red became more regular for the First Order of course, but think about the Emperor’s guards in RotJ. And then the obvious similarity to those guarding Snoke in TLJ. And then the Sith Troopers of TRoS. Again, I’m not saying having red-clad guards is some obvious flag everyone should have immediately been saying ‘oh! Palpatine in Ep IX confirmed!’ in 2017, but now we know what we know I think there things like that which do serve as forward-looking hints, even if they were only ever intended as backward-looking ones.

    Lastly for now, a more tenuous one which works for me but I’m sure others will scoff at (that’s fine!)

    Phasma. Phasma now seems like a blaring siren that Palpatine is returning to me!
    Her armour is made from one of Palpatine’s old ships (not stated in movie, but canon. Regardless, it still works as looking a bit like a Naboo cruiser’s shiny metal though). She (apparently!) dies falling a long way after returning from almost dying on a Death Star like base the film before. Her whole character is about survival before anything else. Also, her name itself is at least a little reminiscent of the word Phantom, no (as in Menace of course)? In fact if you take the words Phantom Menace and crush them together, you can almost get the name Phasma out of them (Pha- and the soft -ce as a then ’as’ sound).

    Again I’m not saying that any of these mean it was ever obvious or necessary that Palpatine was at the end of the story. I’m just saying because he is, there is quite a bit one can now see as little hints or echoes that can function in that way. None of this is ‘compelling proof’, rather just supporting / cumulative evidence that I think helps make his return a lot less out of left field for me.

    MTFBWY :)
     
    • Great Post Great Post x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  5. SuperBenKenobi1992

    SuperBenKenobi1992 Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2015
    Posts:
    258
    Likes Received:
    287
    Trophy Points:
    1,617
    Credits:
    804
    Ratings:
    +452 / 5 / -3
    Yeah ive been saying that the story hasnt needed to be 7-9 for a while... only the inclusion of palpatine does it become more necessary to do so. You make this story but without skywalkers and its not really changed. I agree 100 if you are going to make a skywalker story then do that if you're goung to do something brand new them dont call it a continuation of what came before and start freah
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 24, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 24, 2020 ---
    The only thing that i can think of is in The Last Jedi John Williams used Palpatines theme in Scene with snoke amd Rey
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 24, 2020 ---
    My point was this:

    Rise was 2hrs and 22 minutes. However it was really only like 2 hr 13 min because end credits wer about 9 minutes. Would adding 5 minutes to that to explain how palpatine was there really have made the film that much longer. All they would have had to do is at the end have him say i am alive because my hatred kept me moving but my body is broken. Like 10 seconds of footage and that is all we would need to be less curious about that. He could have said to Ben Solo at the beginning in regards to his armada. Upon my death i had a conigency plan. A secret an army was put into motion and over seen by my serveant Snoke. Again another 10 seconds that could have helped explain. Adding the 30 minutes could have just given them more time to do it with. And sinces its the Epic conclusion why not make it longer and gives us more to enjoy. Give us a final lightsaber dual. Gives more dogfught above them. Make the battle with the knights of ren longer. Give us more knights of ren. Youd be surprise how little time fight sometime are of actual screen time. I think that ren v ben fight was literal maybe a minute footage
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Posts:
    5,258
    Likes Received:
    29,980
    Trophy Points:
    155,167
    Credits:
    22,380
    Ratings:
    +37,836 / 149 / -96
    Yes, if the scene is not a good scene. If it's clunky or just brings the film to a halt, yes adding that five minutes could be a major problem to a film that is already bloated.

    This should have been a plot in the movie. Palpatine surviving in TROS :: Time Travel in Endgame

    Ditch the wayfinders (it's literally only done to put Poe, Finn and Rey on an adventure together bc people were weirdly upset they weren't in TLJ) and make this the plot of the first act instead. Finding how he's back and how to stop him. Not complicated. Which do you think makes for a more compelling film, chasing useless macguffins that only exist to be found or doing a deep dive on how a dark force user was able to resurrect himself after being believed dead for 30 years?

    \
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  7. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Posts:
    2,223
    Likes Received:
    4,232
    Trophy Points:
    13,687
    Credits:
    5,512
    Ratings:
    +6,437 / 172 / -37
    Star Wars has been an evolving story since 1980 so the ‘Saga’ is never going to flow perfectly like The Lord of Rings’ narrative.

    While many argue bringing back Palpatine undoes alot in ROTJ, you can say the same about Deathstar 2 undoing the events and celebration in ANH. The Deathstar IS the macguffin of the original 1977 Standalone film, and yet that same macguffin pops up in ROTJ.

    My point is I never look too deeply into the story when it comes to something like this topic, because the Saga has much more to offer in another way.

    SW to me is really a character study and the macro story (including Palpatine) is just the backround music. So I choose to focus on the characters and their journey and just ‘go’ with the macro story. That’s why I’m fine with Palpatine returning (but I do understand fans that have a problem with it).

    I hope that makes sense!
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  8. iostream

    iostream Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2019
    Posts:
    99
    Likes Received:
    251
    Trophy Points:
    597
    Credits:
    325
    Ratings:
    +369 / 2 / -6
    It does make cohesive sense for the guy pulling the strings through the saga to continue to be the guy pulling the strings through the saga, ultimately to his own undoing.

    Yeah and the opera scene isn't just planting one TROS seeds, but two: the Palpatine seed of cheating death and the Skywalker seed of saving the one he loves from dying. Those two seeds in that opera scene become the bookend flowering of TROS - Sidious cheating death at the beginning and Ben saving Rey from dying at the end.

    To me, the TROS ending to the saga is "better" than the ROTJ ending. I'm using "better" as a word describing an objective effectiveness, as opposed to a subjective use as in "blue is a better color than green". The TROS ending does far more for the saga in terms of narrative movement and closure in regards to all of the characters coming before. It weaves together many threads which ROTJ doesn't, creating an ending which - while maintaining the likeness of the conclusion of ROTJ - is more robust. That is to say, it "rhymes" in a way that provides newness and depth to that which was prior. Instead of just the Skywalker redemption, there is the Skywalker-Palpatine redemption which concludes the TPM theme of the mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship to a fuller extent.

    This is of course counting the ending of TROS as the celebration ending which parallels ROTJ; but TROS has the coda of Rey on Tatooine which elevates the conclusion to an even greater degree in relationship to the Skywalkers as an abstract "spiritual" family as opposed to one based soley in blood. Naturally, regarding whether blue is better than green, there's no functional meaning and that will come down to personal likes.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 24, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 24, 2020 ---
    It's not even terribly different (narratively) than Kenobi's return in the OT. How did it happen? Magic. The only difference in the story is that the Jedi magic return is "natural" while the Sith magic return is "unnatural". But both are narrative "magic" and don't need an explanation beyond "magic" - odds are that the people wanting an explanation of the latter magic are the same ones who balk at midichlorians as unnecessary explanation of the former magic.

    It makes brilliant, beautiful sense.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  9. Lord of the Rens

    Lord of the Rens Jedi General

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Posts:
    1,726
    Likes Received:
    24,596
    Trophy Points:
    149,617
    Credits:
    22,446
    Ratings:
    +26,990 / 116 / -38
    "Plagueis planned to be appointed Co-Chancellor of the Republic so that he might advise Sidious from the dark and devote himself to his own research." - for the ST, Snoke filled Palpatine's role while he replaced his former Master.


    "Everything done here has been for a single purpose: to extend our reign indefinitely." ―Darth Plagueis to Darth Sidious

    ***

    https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2014/05/speculation-case-for-darth-plagueis-in.html - looking back, I would have preferred the Sith Lords instead of Palpatine with some random clone puppet with zero ties to the SAGA.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. Chris182

    Chris182 Rebel Trooper

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2019
    Posts:
    21
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Credits:
    161
    Ratings:
    +70 / 0 / -0
    In the Aftermath Trilogy, they did kinda POTENTIALLY seed it with the whole Acolytes of the Beyond and Yupe Tashu who himself didn't beleived that the emperor was dead...intentionnal or not that's a good enough piece of foreshadowing in my book...
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  11. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2014
    Posts:
    3,568
    Likes Received:
    7,832
    Trophy Points:
    88,637
    Credits:
    18,378
    Ratings:
    +11,114 / 60 / -6
    The term Skywalker saga was actually used relatively early on to help differentiate those movies from the Star Wars stories.

    I also feel like it was chosen so that when this saga ended they could create new “sagas” that can then be differentiated from I-IX
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  12. Obi5Kenobi

    Obi5Kenobi Rebel General

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2019
    Posts:
    371
    Likes Received:
    691
    Trophy Points:
    4,067
    Credits:
    1,065
    Ratings:
    +981 / 14 / -1
    That's cool, but kinda, potentially, in a novel isn't good enough for me, personally.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  13. Darth Chewie

    Darth Chewie Rebel General

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2015
    Posts:
    233
    Likes Received:
    656
    Trophy Points:
    4,472
    Credits:
    1,661
    Ratings:
    +933 / 14 / -0
    Disney got in the way to stop 5 minutes of exposition dialogue that explained how Palpy survived? Highly doubt it. For starters Disney didn't make these movies, Lucasfilm did. Yes I know they are owned by Disney, but they are still an independent film company. These "JJ's cut" and "Disney getting in the way of his true vision" rumours are ridiculous and nothing more then a way for people who disliked the movie to feel better, thinking there is a better version of it out there. Kinda like people who choose to believe in life after death. Are there cut scenes? Yes? Where there some rewrites while in production? Likely. JJ and Kasdan were in constant rewrite mode while filming TFA. But there is no evidence that points to JJ wanting one thing and Disney coming in right at the end, and forcing him to change the entire movie in editing to suite some kind of agenda. The script and main plot would of had to been approved long before cameras starting rolling. So the idea that Disney waited until the last possible minute to decide they didn't like his "vision" is also ridiculous. Remember, no one is saying they were unhappy with the film as a whole or the quality of acting and writing. The rumors specifically state they crapped on his vision of the movie. So unless JJ lied to them by showing them a fake script and filmed another movie in secret before getting caught (when you say it out loud like this it truly sounds dumb), I would suggest people stop believing most of what they read on the internet and they'll be better off. ;)
     
    • Wise Wise x 3
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
    1030th Junior * (Mod)

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Posts:
    1,755
    Likes Received:
    20,930
    Trophy Points:
    148,717
    Credits:
    12,343
    Ratings:
    +22,870 / 68 / -20
    A 5 minute exposition scene on how Palpatine survived sounds awful (and obviously never existed). Even the ANH exposition scene in Ben's hut took less time than that, and that scene set up the story/plot, the characters, the setting/universe, for the entire film, not to mention for the franchise!

    Exposing how Palpatine survived should, even if it was needed (which it absolutely was not), take no more than 30 seconds or so. In fact, you could do it in one or two lines of dialogue, (it would be bad, expository dialogue, but you could do it... I'm glad they didn't 'cause the film is packed enough as it is). The only thing that we need to know in TRoS is THAT Palpatine survived to carry on his schemes and machinations; HOW he did so is for comics and novels or whatever.
     
    • Like Like x 7
    • Wise Wise x 2
  15. DigificWriter

    DigificWriter Rebel General

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2019
    Posts:
    730
    Likes Received:
    1,135
    Trophy Points:
    4,742
    Credits:
    1,262
    Ratings:
    +1,841 / 90 / -29
    A few things:
    1) Disney does not tell Lucasfilm how to make movies
    2) JJ Abrams himself was a Producer on TRoS, and you can't take control of a film away from yourself
    3) I'm pretty sure that the term "Skywalker Saga" was first used in the 1980s, which is also the first time that the Star Wars films were described as being a 9-part series comprising a "trilogy of Trilogies" (the latter definitely happened in the 80s, and on the packaging for the Vinyl release of the The Empire Strikes Back soundtrack)

    Palpatine's return wasn't explained in the final cut of TRoS because JJ Abrams and his editor Maryann Brandon decided that such an explanation wasn't necessary.
     
    #55 DigificWriter, Jan 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 2
    • Wise Wise x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2016
    Posts:
    1,977
    Likes Received:
    2,488
    Trophy Points:
    8,842
    Credits:
    3,613
    Ratings:
    +4,289 / 290 / -147
    Rather one defends the JJ Cut is real or not one thing can't be disputed. Several reliable news agencies (London Times I think among others) orginaly posted the TROS runtime as 2:35:00. Not just the click sites reporting it too.

    Where did those 13 minutes go?
     
  17. SuperBenKenobi1992

    SuperBenKenobi1992 Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2015
    Posts:
    258
    Likes Received:
    287
    Trophy Points:
    1,617
    Credits:
    804
    Ratings:
    +452 / 5 / -3
    To be honest im not sure i believe the part about disney interfeeing and making him do different cut ecxept in the sense of the possible list of check marks they felt they needed to "saitisfy the fans". I do believe there is a veesion of the film they JJ wishes he could have released but more than likely felt himslef that fans or disney may not like it.

    Also keep in mind that dianey pays lucasfioms checks right now so disney has a lot of weight to throw around. If the felt the powees at be wrent being very good stewards of the product and potentially loaing dianey money or causing the product the fall through, you ben dianey will steo in for damage control. Which was definitely necessary after The Last Jedi.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 28, 2020, Original Post Date: Jan 28, 2020 ---
    Yeah i think on imdb it poatee 2:22.00 or something like that.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 28, 2020 ---
    I said 5 minutes as an arbitrary small amount of time. Really it could have taken 1 or 2 additional lines which coukd taken leas than a minute.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2017
    Posts:
    1,209
    Likes Received:
    3,162
    Trophy Points:
    10,667
    Credits:
    3,735
    Ratings:
    +4,297 / 50 / -22
    What does it matter? Do you think they deliberately cut stuff to either piss people off or make a good movie not as good. When people throw stuff like this around I always need to know what is the motive? Like the whole happily ever after discussion. People seem to think that at the end of November Disney took over and cut out a HEA ending. This is Disney the HEA studio and they want to take away a HEA ending. Why? Did they want to spite some people? What is the motive?


    Came into this thread to say really everything in TROS does make sense. Nothing should be that controversial. Maybe a few things really werent needed, but the whole flow of the movie and the major events are not controversial in the Star Wars Universe.

    Back at Celebration we found out Palpatine was back and JJ and KK talked about it as a movie that involved a quest by the so called big 3. That didnt change. Originally I thought somehow Palpatine would be in a weakened state and slowly over the 30 years had been brought back and been regaining strength. I thought the quest would be to find clues that lead to Palpatine and stop him from being 100% back. Really the only change in what I thought would happen was that he was already back and the quest was to find him to defeat him rather then to stop him coming back.

    The other major things in the movie to me were never a big whoop.
    Leia was trained. Of course that should have happened.
    Rey is a Palpatine. Ok they did foreshadow that she sometimes acts with anger.
    Rey takes Skywalker name. To me the biggest non issue in the history of Star Wars.
    Bendemption and Reylo. Of course it was setup in 2 previous movies.
    No HEA. Sorry that just wasnt in the cards. Previous films and books would not support that Ben could just come back and be accepted.

    The biggest issue that the film presented to me when I 1st viewed it was the pace. That totally went away subsequent viewings and I really appreciate it since I tend to watch and re-watch Star Wars films and nearly all of them have dead spots that seem to crawl. Watch them to late or to tired and fall asleep I will.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Rude Rude x 1
  19. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel General

    Joined:
    May 16, 2018
    Posts:
    307
    Likes Received:
    653
    Trophy Points:
    4,142
    Credits:
    1,274
    Ratings:
    +1,009 / 18 / -6
    I agree. I’m okay with a little mystery. And obviously so is JJ. I’m actually perfectly fine to simply have the call-back line to ROTS about unnatural abilities. I even finished the line out loud in the theatre before Palpatine did.

    I just don’t see the need to have every little thing spoon-fed to us.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
  20. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2017
    Posts:
    1,209
    Likes Received:
    3,162
    Trophy Points:
    10,667
    Credits:
    3,735
    Ratings:
    +4,297 / 50 / -22
    One of the great things that my 42 years of fandom has been driven by is we werent spoon-fed everything. This is a prime reason we have all the forums, message boards, fanzines and who knows what through all these years. Without mystery and everything answered why do we discuss and speculate.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Wise Wise x 2
    • Great Post Great Post x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
Loading...

Share This Page