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Why Palpatine returning makes sense.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Adam812, Jan 23, 2020.

  1. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Rey absolutely denies her inheritance.

    You cant get much more denial than to openly choose a different surname that literally embodies the values cardinally opposite of your patriarchal inheritance.
    She didn't, at any point, say anything about honoring her parents or being like them. They were a mere footnote in the story's narrative.

    The link between Rey and Palpatine is the focal point; not her parents. This isn't like Vader to Luke in the presence of Palpatine.
    There's no three way generational relationship going on. It's collapsed to two. Palpatine and Rey. Rey's parents are kicked out to the side and not focused on in the story's narrative much at all. She doesn't call upon them during her struggle with her Grandfather.
    She calls upon the Jedi as he calls upon the Sith, she looks to Ben who is a Skywalker by proxy, and then she looks off into the horizon and says she's a Skywalker while looking at Luke and Leia.

    She doesn't go to find her parent's home, which they could have written. The narrative could have gone anywhere.
    But that's not what they chose to focus on. They focused on Rey choosing to deny Palpatine and her rightful place on the throne as his replacement - literally what she is offered. She's not offered to stand by his side, like Luke. She's literally offered the throne itself and to be imbued with all Sith within Palpatine. The entire lineage of the Sith itself is offered to her. She turns it down. That's what the story focuses on. Her choosing to deny all of that and instead choosing to claim the name of Skywalker and going to Luke's old home on Tatooine.

    How much louder must the denial be exactly?
    Does she need to say, "I deny my inheritance that you offer me Palpatine, and choose to be identified for evermore as your enemy, Skywalker!"
    I mean...that's what she basically said by action and some of the dialogue's subtext. Do we need a neon sign saying the subtext?

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  2. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel General

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    Ok, but then why does the backup clone has Palpatine VI's disfigurations? At least I think I remember it having his face injuries in TROS. Unless this clone is not generated from birth, like the stormtrooper clones of the PT and is a direct copy of old Palpatine VI instead? The only reason that comes to mind is that they applied the same characteristics to this clone so that Palpatine X could look like Palpatine VI, because of his followers or because of we, the audience.

    I do prefer the idea that Palpatine did die in VI, and he even says so in TROS: "I died before". However, it seems that his essence could be kept up to date in a backup "server" of sorts (which is easy to believe), so as its DNA (also very easy to believe). This could allow "Sith magic" to "install" the backup essence/spirit in a new body/clone built with the same DNA. However, a clone would not have any acquired physical disabilities by other previous instances, unless they would want it to have them.

    Also, why the decrepitude? Couldn't they just build a new body for the Emperor from the PT days and transfer his spirit there? I understand he wanted to "acquire" Kylo Ren and/or Rey, but he could have done so in good physical shape. Unless he couldn't sustain the cloned body(ies) for long, for some reason.
     
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  3. delph

    delph Rebel Trooper

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    I believe that a comeback of Palpatine is quite unrealistic because also there could be one or more clones of Vader. Or even clones of everyone, good or evil. I believe that clones is just an excuse to recycle the same villains. I would expect a little bit more of imagination from Disney.
     
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  4. Messi

    Messi Force Attuned

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    "At this time, Luke Skywalker had reached Byss, a Deep Core world enveloped in the power of the dark side. There he met face-to-face with the Emperor reborn; he revealed that for many years, he took to transferring his mind and consciousness to clone bodies to attain immortality. However, the clones were one crucial step from long life; they were more ravaged by the dark side than sustained by the Force. Luckily, Palpatine had numerous clones to laugh in the face of death itself, allowing him to rule indefinitely. The Emperor offered him apprenticeship and the prospect of controlling the enormous fleet of Devastators, as well as the rest of the Imperial fleet."

    This is from a summary of Dark Empire comics that I found on Wookiepedia. Is basically the same plot of TROS, or a part of the plot.

    Byss = Exegol
    Luke = Kylo
    Emperor offering Kylo/Luke a fleet of ships.
    The Emperor in both stories is (are) a clone.

    I just think it workd it better in the comics because Palpatine can transfers his essence or spirit to a new bodie. In the movie we only see an old one.
     
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  5. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Jedi Commander

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    In order to prevent the possibility of Palpy's return, they should have included a scene of a frustrated First Order IT guy saying "What?! You didn't back up your emperor?!"
     
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  6. Phil J

    Phil J Guest

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    Sounds like something from a Tag and Bink comic.
     
  7. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Something being unrealistic In a Star Wars movie?
    [​IMG]

    :p

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  8. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Palpatine: The time has come. With your hatred, you will take my life, and you will ascend!
    Rey: All you want is for me to hate, but I won't. Not even you.
    Palpatine: Weak, like your parents!
    Rey: My parents were strong, they saved me from you.

    Just as Luke accepts being like his father, but not in the way Palpatine meant, Rey accepts being like her parents, but not in the way Palpatine meant.

    Rey’s parents are quintessential and inseparable to Rey’s development as a character.
    • It’s the absence of her parents that creates her core desire for belonging and core fear of abandonment that serve as principle motivation.
    • It’s the promise of their return that leaves her shackled to the pedestrian life of insignificance on Jakku.
    • It’s their specter she must overcome in order to begin her own independent journey of consequence.
    • It’s the prospect of discovering their identities that leads her to the darkside cave that results in the disillusionment that bonds her commiserate dyad with Kylo/Ben.
    • It’s the revelation of their callous monstrousness that challenges her resolve and sense of value.
    • It’s the augmented revelation of their martyrdom at Palpatine’s hands that fuels the hatred she must surmount in order to transcend.
    • It’s the recognition of their selfless sacrifice that strengthens her determination in the face of corruptive influence.

    Rey’s parents are a key component informing development at every step of her journey. I don’t mean to be rude, but I’m flabbergasted by your statement “They were a mere footnote in the story's narrative.” This is a very uncharacteristically myopic position from you and demonstrates an astonishing misinterpretation of the text.

    Actually it is. For Luke, ‘Vader’ isn’t the name of his father. It’s the name of the darkness that took his father from him. For Rey, ‘Palpatine’ isn’t the name of her family. It’s the name of the darkness that took her family from her. Rey doesn’t reject her family anymore than Luke rejects his father. What she rejects is the darkness which, just like Luke, is personified by the figure of the Emperor. That’s what’s defeated. That's what's denied.
    Not explicitly ‘generational’, no (unless you want to count Palps as Anakin’s pseudo-father and Luke’s pseudo-grandfather, but best not to kick that hornet’s nest :)), but there absolutely is an analogous triad of interrelation at play there.
    Of course. Rey’s key motivators aren’t the same as Luke’s, so the resolution can’t play out in exact duplication. Luke’s core desire was to become the hero he believed his father was. His core fear was failing to live up that lofty ambition. He succeeds and is resolved by exceeding his father’s legacy. He becomes an even greater hero than his father was. He’s isn’t just A Jedi now. He is THE Jedi. THE guardian of peace and justice.

    Rey’s core desire is belonging. Her core fear is abandonment. She succeeds and is resolved by embracing the continuum of the Jedi - an order where she will always belong and a collective that will never abandon her.

    What her parents had chosen was to be “nobody”. Not because being nobodies is so super terrific, but in divorcement from the legacy of Palpatine. They weren’t Dick and Jane Palpatine. They were their own anonymous identity out of necessity. Rey honors their choice and then exceeds them by choosing the most recognizable surname in the galaxy. She isn’t disowning them. She’s doing what they couldn’t: living in the light - on the biggest stage imaginable. She is now THE Skywalker, THE Jedi, THE guardian of peace and justice.
    You realize that was just bait, right? Palpatine had no intention of handing over his throne to his “heir”. It was a lure - a temptation from the snake of Eden. From what I took from TROS, this is how the Sith propagate. The apprentice literally becomes the master. Luke was to become Sidious’s new disciple - his future vessel. No difference. Blood relation only modified the sales pitch.
    Sheesh. I think so, man. You seem to have missed some.
     
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  9. Phil J

    Phil J Guest

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    Oof. I felt that.

    [​IMG]
     
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  10. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Yikes! I hope that's not how that came off. I respect @Jayson way too much to make our difference of interpretation confrontational :oops:
     
  11. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    This was pretty clear to me Palpatine didnt care that she was his granddaughter. He simply wanted the host with the most. Was it Kylo or was it Rey? Palpatine wanted to find out. So he tells Kylo to go kill Rey. He succeeds and Palpatine attempts to take over Kylo body, he fails and Palpatine attempts to take over Rey's.

    I think what LFL did was explain more of the Rule of Two without being explicit. Masters dont train apprentice to take over when he dies. Master's train apprentice to have a new host to move into. Palpatine wanted Anakin, but Anakin got destroyed by Ob-Wan. Yes he survived, but Palpatine wasnt ready to take over that battered body. Then Palpatine wanted Luke and Anakin stopped it.
     
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  12. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    Actually, if you listen to the commentary track for ROTJ, George flat out says this. Not with respect to ‘body swapping’ and such, but that Palp’s aim was to trade up with Luke. Vader was damaged goods and could never be the true apprentice that he’d wanted. His full potential could never be realized hampered as he was.

    Now, with the new light from TROS, it brings that concept into sharper focus. Palpy wasn’t grooming a new agent. He was pressing a new set of clothes :D
     
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  13. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Hmm.
    I'll have to think about this for a while.

    I still vividly feel Rey is openly denying her inheritance where Luke is not, but you lay out a good argument that I need to watch the film with to consider better if I'm off on my impression.

    And no, I didn't take offense.
    We argue strongly, but positively, and with respect. :)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  14. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    I theorized a couple months back right after TROS release that this is why Plagueis novel wasn't made canon. Really nothing in it conflicts with what has became canon since, except for how the Rule of Two is handled.
     
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  15. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    That’s a pretty cool observation.

    But wouldn’t that imply there was some sort of . . . . <gulp> . . . . PLAN? We know that couldn’t possibly be true. Kathleen Kennedy said "No plans. Never. I hate 'em and I hate you . . . all of you." That's a direct quote. Don't ask for the source :D
     
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  16. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Shhh....We wouldnt want that to get out. You know that a huge mutlti billion $ investment by a company that plans everything out, yet keeps them secret would have planned things out. You know company that kept Project Luminous planning secret for nearly 6 years didnt have initial planning and arcs for ST leak.
     
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  17. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    So, according to the new novelisation of TROS (IX), Rey's father is a failed backup clone of the real Emperor killed in ROTJ (VI).
    Which technically means that Palpy is really Rey's father....?!?

    3 months after the film was released, they're still writing its story....!!!
     
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  18. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    [​IMG]

    Sounds normal for Star Wars. Honestly, that's a bit fast.
    This franchise has one of the longest back-fill plots via comics and books I think there is on record.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  19. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    True. But ...some things are best left...unknown, you know? Actually this makes me sad.

    We have fans bitching that tros was too vague giving answers and the other camp of fans telling them that not everything needs to be explained and now it looks like we would have gotten everything explained and spoon fed, but tros just had run out of time, because now they're throwing all this stuff at us.
     
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  20. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    And most of those new answers aren't really good or consistent compared to the already established content. You think TROS is retconning the previous movies? Well, then look at the novelization- there're retcons on almost every other page (I'm exaggerating of course, but you get my point).
     
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