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SPECULATION Will Luke actually help the Resistance? After DS1, he didn't really help the Rebels.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by techsteveo, Mar 25, 2017.

  1. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    Luke Skywalker was the hero of the Rebel Alliance after destroying the Death Star. Nobody can ever take that away from him. But after that, what did he really do for the Rebels? One can argue he had little impact on future events.

    Hear me out....this may make some of you uncomfortable.

    Since the 1st Death Star, Luke has been of virtually no impact to defeating the Empire. Take away Luke and you probably get a similar result. What has he done?
    • He led Rogue Squadron on Hoth and got shot down. He took down an AT-AT but still had to retreat. The battle of Hoth was a failure.
    • He trains to be a Jedi and leaves early to "help" his friends. We all know how that turned out. They had to save him.
    • He helped save Han from Jabba, but that was a personal fight.
    • He "endangered the mission" on Endor and ended up having to leave with Vader BEFORE the biggest and most important battle. He was too busy trying to save his father than save the galaxy.
    Regardless of what transpired during his confrontation with Vader and the Emperor, Lando and Wedge would have ended them when the Death Star was destroyed. The whole Chosen One prophecy of Vader destroying the Sith was overrated since they would have gone down with the Death Star anyway. Luke saved his father. Awesome. But it was Han, Leia, Chewie and Lando that did the heavy lifting, as always.

    But back to Luke.....WILL HE ACTUALLY HELP THIS TIME? Will he help the Resistance fight or will he be too busy training Rey and trying to redeem his nephew? Will we see him save the day somehow or will it be Finn, Poe, Chewie and Leia taking care of the First Order?
     
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  2. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    There was plenty of time to evacuate DS2 before it blew. Without Luke defeating the Emperor, old Palpotron would have escaped and rallied his Imperial forces similar to the loss at Yavin. It was the power vacuum introduced after the Emperor’s ‘separation’ that caused the Empire to collapse from within. That doesn’t happen without Luke. He saved the Galaxy. Simple as that.
     
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  3. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    The Emporer escaping is purely speculation on your part. I would argue he would go down just like Tarkin. Overconfident. Remember Luke's line "your overconfidence is your weakness". Also, the Rebels were shooting down anything escaping the Death Star. I believe it was one of the new canon comics or books that stated Luke had to tell a pilot he was a friendly in that shuttle to avoid being shot down when he escaped the Death Star. I believe it was Poe's mom actually. Luke really didn't save anything other than his father and himself.
     
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  4. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    Go back and watch the OT again, especially VI. The battle turns when, and only when, the Emperor becomes distracted with the battle between Luke and Vader. By saving Vader he saves the galaxy.
     
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  5. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    The reason I've started this convo is because I've watched the OT thousands of times. The reason the Emporer didn't care about the battle was because of his overconfidence. Do you really think Luke with his "feeble skills" would have stopped Palpatine from evacuating if he wanted too?

    Vader made the choice to help his son. Let's say he didn't and Luke died. Would they have taken the next shuttle out of there? Doubt it. Even if they did, the tide had turned. The Rebels would have shot down any escaping ships.
     
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  6. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    Everything in the trilogy hinged on that moment. The entire saga is about (according to Lucas) the fall and redemption of Vader. The moment Luke strikes at Palpatine and draws out Vader is important as it means Palpatine is no longer giving the battle any attention.

    Are you saying that without Luke the Rebellion wins the battle? Counterfactual history is fun to engage in, but the facts are against you. Luke WAS on the DS2. Luke drew Palpatine's attention away from the battle. Without Luke Vader does not turn and the battle would not have been won by the Alliance. That's why Luke is the hero of the story. Luke redeems his father. Saying Luke did nothing after episode IV is just trolling.
     
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  7. Protocol Droid

    Protocol Droid Rebel General

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    I like the thread starter here, it's a thoughtful question and is "true" in a literal sense. I don't think it's trolling at all.

    However, it assumes the war between the Empire and Rebellion isn't a complex system of contingent desires and events. It ended the way it ended precisely because of all of the interrelated parts -- take away one, and the ending could be quite different.

    In ROTJ, for example, Palpatine considered the conversion of Luke to the dark side a high priority. His orchestration of the 3rd act is an attempt to kill two birds with one stone: lure the rebel fleet into a trap, and bait Luke into becoming his apprentice. I think you could argue that without Luke, Palpatine's strategic approach would be quite different, up to and including the events of ROTJ. E.g. Would he or Vader have even allowed Luke's "friends on the Endor moon" (who end up shutting down the shield generator) to have reached the moon in the first place, if not for Luke's presence? Additionally, as mentioned above, Palpatine was preoccupied with the Luke/Vader drama in the throne room during the final battle; had his full attention been available, it may have played out differently. I'm not suggesting he's a tactical military genius or anything, but he's obviously a cunning strategist and his Force intuition (and possibly other Force powers) may have had an impact if not otherwise occupied.

    Another argument: Luke's circuitous and somewhat questionable and definitely self-centered non-Rebellion-focused personal journey -- to Yoda, then to Cloud City, then Jabba, back to Yoda, etc -- was precisely the journey he needed to take in order to 1) find himself alone in the throne room with Vader and Palpatine, 2) convince them (if unintentionally), via his actions leading up to this, that he was weak-willed and impressionable enough to be turned to the dark side, and 3) summon the "good" within himself to persuade Vader to murder/suicide Palpatine. Also as mentioned above, I don't think it's a given that Vader and Palpatine would have died on (or trying to escape) the Death Star if you remove Luke from the equation. In fact, it's possible they may have even been at a remote location, managing things from afar (cf. Snoke during the Starkiller base attack at the end of TFA), so we could make a case here that he's personally responsible for decapitating the leadership of the Empire, arguably a feat as significant as taking out the first Death Star.
     
    #7 Protocol Droid, Mar 25, 2017
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  8. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    Let's back up a bit.
    1. Luke didn't think Vader would turn him over to the Emporer. He thought he could confront Vader on Endor and try to turn him back. That failed. Vader took him to the Death Star. Luke didn't bank on that happening.
    2. Luke's presence on the Death Star had no bearing on the space battle or on Endor. The Emporer never thought that Ewoks from Endor would overthrow his best legion troops.
    3. Lando and Wedge were already making their approach into the Death Star when Palpatine decides to lightning Luke. Had Vader not saved his son, they were both dead.

    To say that Luke was a distraction and that's why the Alliance won would be a huge oversimplification and not at all accurate. Luke influenced Vader. Not with his words. It was the image of his son dying that brought back Anakin Skywalker.

    However, it was the Ewoks and the Rebels that brought down the Empire. Not Luke. Luke and Vaders story would have ended differently, but the Rebels would have still won.
     
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  9. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    Yes he would have. The Emperor didn't know Luke was with the Rebels.

    Remember this exchange between Vader and Palpatine:

    "A small Rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor.
    Yes I know.
    My son is with them.
    Are you sure?
    I have felt him my master.
    I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear Lord Vader?
    They are clear.
    Then you must go to the sanctuary moon and wait for him.
    He will come to me?
    I have foreseen it. His compassion for you will be his undoing."

    All of that was not part of the Emperors trap. BUT, Palps did know a group of Rebels made it to Endor and let the Bothans know the location of the shield generator. That just proves his plan was to trap the Rebels and wipe them out once and for all. His arrogance was off the charts!!!! I would argue that arrogance would have been his downfall regardless of Luke's actions. Lando and Wedge still would have destroyed the Death Star. The Ewoks still would have allied with the Rebels. The Executor still would have crashed into the Death Star.

    Luke made it to the Death Star because Vader convinced the Emperor that he should be turned. That wasn't Luke's plan.

    Back to my main point. Luke barely fought with the Rebels in the OT. A few minutes on Hoth. A few minutes on Endor before leaving. His Jedi skills never really used in any way to over throw the Empire. He acted to save his father and friends (although it worked out).

    Will we see him impact the war between the First Order and Resistance? Will he focus too much on Kylo and his failure to restart the Jedi order?
     
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  10. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I think Luke was vital to the Rebellion to the very end of the OT. Had he not distracted and then inspired the destruction of the Emperor, then the Empire wouldn't have fallen. Luke's influence as a Jedi on galactic affairs cannot be taken lightly, and it seems this remains the case. In the opening crawl of TFA it says how the FO rose in the absence of Luke, in that the absence of the Jedi is the important thing.

    The Emperor was not like Tarkin, in that he had the ability to foresee future events. When the Death Star was infiltrated, had Luke have turned or be dead then the Emperor and Vader would've escaped.

    WIthout the Jedi, there can be no balance in the Force.
     
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  11. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    Luke played his part, plus had a different journey than everyone else, so he will do the same in the rest of this trilogy too I'm sure.

    As for the question"Will he help...?" In his own way just like in the OT. But if you expect him to hop in an X-wing and have a go, I highly doubt it.
     
    #11 Bluemilk, Mar 25, 2017
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  12. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    In a fantasy-fairy tale like SW, where this is true of the galaxy:

    power of the Force.jpg

    you just have to accept that the mystical elements, especially the Force, make their presence felt in the destiny of the main characters. The military aspect is usually the "face" of the good guys--it's what we can see--but the Force is always working behind all that, surrounding and binding the story, as it were. So Luke, as a Jedi, may never be a military leader again, but you can rest assured that he will always be helping the good to defeat the bad in a more significant, overarching way that transcends pew-pew and X-wings.
     
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  13. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    I think a lot of the heroics that Luke displayed for the Rebellion happened outside of the films in the books and comics and such. His path in the films was clearly not to help the Rebels but to become a Jedi and turn Vader back. He never really had a plan to "conquer Vader and his Emperor". From the time Vader was revealed as his father until the end of ROTJ, Luke's mission was to convert his father and save Han from Jabba. He tried to help the Endor mission, but quickly found out his presence put the mission in danger. I disagree that he was necessary for a Rebel victory. I put more stock in the fact that the Emperor's overconfidence and lack of ability to see the Ewoks influence as BIG TIME reasons for the fall.

    Now fast forward to the events of TFA. Again, Luke was not in the BIG FIGHT. Had Luke been involved in the politics and strategy WITH Leia, perhaps the First Order never rises. I'm bothered by the fact that Luke COULD have done more but keeps choosing his personal struggles over the greater good. It proves he never really learned that the lifestyle of a Jedi is to let go and be selfless.
     
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  14. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Palpatine knew the Rebels were planning a two pronged attack. He was confident it wouldn’t work, but if it had, he would have known about it pretty damn quick. Luke had enough time to carry an armor- plated, half-dead cyborg all the way to the shuttle bay to make his escape. Do you really think the bloody Emperor wouldn’t have had a quicker, more well-guarded, escape plan? He’s overconfident, but he’s pragmatic enough to see the writing on the wall.

    Palpy had full faith that his control over Vader was absolute - that the guy was beyond reach and Luke would suffer the same fate. He was wrong. Luke resisted the darkside and redeemed his father at the same time. It was that victory that defeats the Emperor. That’s the whole point of that scene. Luke defeated the Emperor and ultimately the Empire along with him.
     
    #14 eeprom, Mar 26, 2017
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  15. aml435

    aml435 Rebelscum

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    If Luke hadn't been on DS2, neither would Vader.
    He'd have either been on his Star Destroyer which would not have then been destoyed, or even worse, waiting inside the shield generator to go Rogue One on Han, Leia, Chewie and the rest of the rebels.
    Meanwhile, Palpatine would have been focused on the battle instead of Luke and ordered the Death Star to blow up Endor the minute the shield was down.
     
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  16. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    Good point about Vader. He was told to remain on the Command ship but changed his plan when he sensed Luke was one of the Rebels trying to take down the shield. So while Luke did endanger the ground mission, he helped by getting Vader out of the space battle.

    As for blowing up Endor, it wouldn't have mattered. Lando and Wedge were in the Death Star as soon as the shield went down. They could have blown up the heroes, but the DS was going boom no matter what.

    The more this gets discussed, the more it seems like Luke, Palpatine and Vader made very critical errors leading up to that final confrontation. It worked out for Luke, but definitely not according to anyone's plan.

    In Episode 8, I'd like to see Luke reference his past mistakes and be wiser and more calculating. Hopefully have full vision of the Force. I don't want the first half to be about Rey trying to sober him up from him wallowing in his failures.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 26, 2017, Original Post Date: Mar 26, 2017 ---
    Luke may have had influence, but Vader redeemed himself. Vader saved his son's life and Luke's love saved his father's soul. The Chosen One defeated the Emperor. Luke would have failed in a one on one confrontation with the Emperor. Only Vader would have the opportunity to surprise Palpatine and turn on him.

    Look, there's no denying that Luke's presence set off that chain of events. BUT, I believe the result of the Battle of Endor was not one Luke influenced. It was the fact that the Emperor was SUPER OVERCONFIDENT and underestimated the Rebels and their little furry allies.

    I don't think Snoke will make the same mistake when it comes to Luke or the Resistance. It seems Snoke is very worried about the return of the Last Jedi. This could make him more formidable from a strategy sense.
     
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  17. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    In ESB, Luke went to save his friends, and if he hadn't tried to fight off Vader, Han and Leia and Chewie would have died, which would have either led to the end of the rebels or the biggest defeat for them which would eventually lead to their defeat. in ROTJ, only HE thought he was endangering the mission. He saved his friends from being cooked and eaten during the mission. The only reason the imperials allowed the stolen shuttle to get passed the shield generator was because Vader felt Luke's presence on board. Luke turned himself in to Vader as a distraction to help the ground forces of the rebels blow up the shield generator and then defeated Vader, who in turn killed the emperor, which effectively brought on the end of the empire besides a few factions and some last battles to fight. So Luke didn't literally blow up the death star but he was responsible for all the major pieces coming into place.

    The whole point of the chosen one was that vader had the ability to turn from the light side to the dark side and back to the light while defeating the sith once and for all.

    As of now we have no idea as to why Luke disappeared and didn't help the resistance during TFA besides running off to find the jedi temple stuff as well as his jedi temple massacre. In TLJ, Luke will probably be some sort of major catalyst in the events that transpire during the movie similar to how he has been. .
     
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  18. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I’m sorry, but I find it exceptionally difficult to believe Vader would have up and betrayed his master if not for Luke’s desperate appeals for his father. Anakin himself credited Luke as his savior at the end. It’s pretty hard to argue this position, man.
    I think you missed the point of that scene. Luke wasn’t there to fight Palpatine. He fully expected to die there on that station. He was there to save his father. To release him from the Emperor’s grip and overcome his own darkness. And that’s precisely what he did. Saving his father had the immediately repercussion of ending Palpatine’s life and reign. That wasn’t Luke’s plan, but that was the net result and he deserves the credit for it.
    I’m not handing Luke credit for the victory at Endor, but the collapse of the Empire that followed shortly after.

    I’ve never recommended anyone read “Aftermath” . . . and I won’t start now. But that book made it very clear, the Emperor didn’t have a very well thought out plan for continuity of leadership. His absence led to fractures and infighting – warring factions jockeying for power. That’s what ultimately led to the Rebellion’s success. Their enemy was too busy fighting amongst themselves.

    Simple fact is the Empire’s rapid decline between Endor and Jakku is chiefly due to Luke’s dogged insistence that his father could be saved – no matter what everyone else had told him. He never lost hope – that’s the moral of the story. Give the guy his props.
    Maybe so. I’m curious what sort of role Luke will actually play. Just a passing of the baton-saber? Looking forward to finding out.
     
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  19. techsteveo

    techsteveo Force Sensitive

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    I agree but Vader still had to make that decision for himself. It was a choice. Luke and the Emperor put him in that position to choose. Of course Vader would give credit for Luke "being right about me". It still has nothing to do with my point that Luke wasn't there to "conquer Vader and his Emperor". He wasn't planning on being turned over to the Emperor.

    I 100% agree and understand that. BUT, I question Luke's intentions. This is precisely why I started this discussion. Shouldn't Luke have been trying to destroy the Sith??? He was the only one powerful enough. Yet his plan was to rescue his father.

    This proves my point that the Emperor was so overconfident that I don't believe he had an escape plan. He had FORSEEN victory. He was arrogant and played games with the Rebels. Hell he didn't even have Star Destroyers attack until he could SURPRISE the Rebels with his operational Death Star. He toyed with them. Now I do give Luke props, but not for the victory at Endor, but for victory over the Sith.

    This is not accurate at all. Re-watch the scene. Admiral Piett "was about to clear them" but Vader sensed Luke's presence aboard. Vader could have ordered the ship shot down, but didn't because of the "CONFLICT" he felt about his son. Instead he reported back to the Emperor. Luke DID endanger the mission. Now, Palpatine also knew the Rebels would make a run for the Shield generator. That's why he had his entire legion of his best troops waiting for them.

    Correct. Luke had NOTHING to do with the Death Star going boom this time. He was resigned to the fact that he was dead if the Rebels were victorious. Regardless of ANYTHING Vader, Luke or the Emperor did, the Death Star was going to be destroyed at Endor because of Palpatines failed and arrogant strategy.
     
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  20. aml435

    aml435 Rebelscum

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    Except if Vader isn't on the Death Star and is in command of the fleet, there's no way that he doesn't have them destroy the Millennium Falcon at the outset of the battle. Lando would be dead WAY before the shield went down after all the trouble that ship has caused Vader.
    Maybe Wedge lives long enough to still blow it up, but that battle would have gone very differently if Vader was in charge and not the Imperial guy who kept getting promoted because all of his commanding officers were executed by Vader.
     
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