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Will you skip TLJ?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by cassidy, Apr 23, 2019.

?

Will you skip TLJ during future Star Wars viewings?

  1. Yes

    18 vote(s)
    22.5%
  2. No

    62 vote(s)
    77.5%
  1. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Jedi General

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    I really like The Last Jedi so obviously I’ll rewatch it many times both on its own and as a part of future marathons, but I personally don’t understand skipping entire movies when viewing the saga. I don’t even like the PT all that much anymore: I’m not the biggest fan of TPM, I’ve never really liked AOTC, and ROTS isn’t aging all that well for me, but I still view all of them as integral parts of the saga (some more than others) and I still have good things to say about each if them. To me, even the worst Star Wars is still much better than your average sci-fi/action flick. And The Last Jedi is the penultimate chapter in the saga and it sets the stage for the finale. It’s like skipping an important chapter in a book in my eyes.
     
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  2. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    I'll start by saying that I won't be skipping TLJ.
    I've had more to look through and analyze in TLJ than any other SW film to date. It's an incredibly packed full film with some of the most dizzying narrative weaving I've ever seen (and I'm including biblical exegesis when I say that - TLJ practically does need cross reference footnotes everywhere). I've written extensively about the narrative structure of TLJ (I've also written on here in the forums...that article just summarizes things so I don't have to chase down a ton of links to posts all over the place), and it's not even my favorite SW film. It's about 4th or so (I'm a big fan of pulp fiction adventure, so ANH, TFA, and Solo take the top tier).

    I usually don't find the second film in a continual trilogy all that interesting (that is, a trilogy that spans its narrative arc over three films, as opposed to an episodic trilogy that just has multiple titles that don't necessarily rely on each other at all; like Indiana Jones, or James Bond).

    I also don't usually find the second act of a story all that interesting. That's usually when I'm likely to take a restroom break if I need one. Second acts are pretty boring to me, so having a continual trilogy set up so that the second film is itself an entire second act is really not my cup of tea much at all (and yes, you can imagine how uninterested I get by the time we get to the second act of the second film of a Star Wars trilogy).

    However, TLJ absolutely stunned me. The breadth of the film was insane.
    Now, I fully get why people hated it. I've studied the points and even while I was watching it, I knew pretty quickly what things were likely going to piss people off. I just don't agree on those issues because I see them differently, and I really appreciate why things were put in exactly as they were. RJ wrote an amazingly balanced house of cards, and any one thing being moved around greatly changes the entire film and starts collapsing the narrative beauty that was accomplished. When I say "narrative beauty", I'm referring to how it refrains and answers motifs and moments from four previous Star Wars films (in one film, no less).

    But again, I do understand why people don't like it.
    Just like I really understand why people don't like the prequels, but I actually think they are done really well for what Lucas was going for, and I do enjoy looking at them from that perspective. Unfortunately, what Lucas was going for pissed a bunch of people off. That happens in art sometimes; especially when people feel like they own the art personally, and iterations differing from their preferences regarding that art is a defacement of the value of the art they own.

    However, I tend to see this as not much different than early Christian sects and how they felt about varying texts; typically only accepting one or two texts and either ignoring, or raging against other texts which didn't align with their view of the religious expression because it represented values they did not hold, and therefore defaced the value of their religious expression by merely existing.

    This is why Star Wars pisses so many off. It's like religious texts, more than most films.
    It paints a specific picture, and tells us an allegorical fairy tale, but the exact meaning, values, and structural rules (regarding itself) that are contained within it are incredibly vague. As soon as someone tries to pin down what something means, or how something works in Star Wars, there's almost immediately someone else to disagree. Some consider declared canon to be the end of all that is, while others simply don't. To others, what exactly constitutes the canon differs from others.

    There's not one Star Wars. There's millions of Star Wars'; almost as many as there are fans.

    Consider that no one who dislikes TLJ, as a case in example, absolutely agrees with everyone else who dislikes TLJ on why, in detail, it was a bad film. They agree on some things, but not on others, and even where they agree, the degree of irritation to which it affects each person is not always the same.

    The same is true regarding those who liked the film.

    So, when I say that I liked TLJ, and that it is a narrative masterpiece, I'm not asserting that anyone who doesn't agree is wrong. It's rather quite simply the case that what I find of impressive value, they do not, and what they find of negative value, I do not.

    Lucifer is a TV show that I think is utter garbage, but it's also the show with the highest streaming rates currently. Clearly entertainment inherently comes with a subjective aesthetic.

    Having said all of that, I do want to take a moment to respond to a few things that you wrote @cassidy.

    I understand this feeling, but I can't help but remember that Lucas was absolutely flying by the seat of his pants on the OT. He did have a general idea of what he was going to do, but things were changing a lot right down to the last few weeks on each film. Hamill enjoys talking about this, and the idea of Lucas having a solid plan. He makes it rather clear that Lucas had basic broad strokes, but the details were no where close to being ironed out.

    We got Ewoks because Lucas was told that Wookies would cost too much to make on that scale, so Lucas said, "Cut them in half".

    We got the whole entire beginning of RotJ during shooting; phone call sessions between Kasdan, Marquand, and Lucas basically just troubleshot one thing after the other in a round robin of spit balling how to make that opening kick off, work, and get out of the way...which is why it feels like such a separate part of the film from the rest...because it really was; it was literally a knee jerk reaction to Ford being talked back into showing back up, and Lucas not being talked into killing Ford off to raise the stakes of the film (Kasdan's idea - which Ford favored). It was basically the Star Wars version of Back to the Future 2's, "Oh crap; we got a sequel and we left the girlfriend in the car!"

    Lucas didn't have any of what we got from Yoda about the Force ironed out; that was a lot of Kasdan helping Lucas to form it into something more than just a tickle in the tummy that helps you block lasers with a lightsaber, feel worlds explode, and shoot torpedoes better than a computer guidance system.

    Lucas didn't have Vader set up as Luke's father until the middle of working on ESB, and he didn't have Leia set up as Luke's sister either - that mostly came about because Lucas actually had a bit of time where he was thinking of killing Luke at the end and so Yoda was set up to leave an out if he wanted with a "there is another", but Lucas eventually changed his mind about that, and so then wrapped up Leia as Luke's sister ... which made things ... a - w - k - ward (Hamill has talked on that as well).

    Lucas at one point was even considering, not only killing Luke, but that Luke wasn't really all that important to Star Wars in general. He was just one of the heroes in the serial, and that after Luke was killed off, he would move on to further adventures of Star Wars without Luke and co. This was back during even the ESB and RotJ period. He later changed his mind about that ... sort of. He actually revisted this tangent when he came back to start 7, and had designed the trilogy to be the death of Luke and the hand-off to an entirely different and young girl (he actually, at least at one point, thought of her as a teenager of around the 14ish range).

    I mean...there's just tons of stuff that was jumbled around last minute. Let alone the mountain of stuff that was left on the cutting room floor in ANH that considerably changed what the story was.

    Also, when ESB first came out, there were a decent number of folks who thought it absolutely ruined Star Wars because Star Wars was about triumph over tyranny and the choice to take action in the face of such evil, and then ESB came along and made the story about how Luke was destined and was part of a monarchical power family both magically and politically, which suddenly flipped the perception around that it was now a story that was exclusive (the chosen one must do this) rather than inclusive (anyone can choose to do this).

    There was some serious umbrage with this at the time, and ESB cranked necks sideways in more ways than just the big bad evil guy being the father of the hero - it's that plus what Yoda and Ben said about Luke in ESB mixed together compared to how some folks took ANH's message.

    The Prequels, on the other hand, were rather specifically planned out and not shuffled around a lot at the last minute by comparison.
    The Prequels are the only real Star Wars trilogy that was designed and planned out with a very specific plan covering the whole thing in better detail than very broad strokes.

    That didn't seem to stop people from hating it. So I don't think the idea of a carefully planned and curated trilogy is something that Star Wars actually needs to be good.
    In fact, I think it's at its best when everything is up against the wall and everyone is stressing out, trying to troubleshoot and race the clock. I think Star Wars begins to run into dangerous waters when everything's easy, timelines aren't an issue, and there's so much of a plan that making the films becomes a matter of "paint by color". Some of the best stuff in Star Wars has come out of desperately trying to solve something that wasn't working (e.g. "I love you!" "I know").

    Conversely, some things that were part of a really elaborate and specific plan kind of gave us things like chlorinated music files (midi + chlorian - "chlorian" is a conjugated adjective of chlorine).

    This isn't to say that shooting from the hip always worked out, or that everything planned was bad - not at all. I also don't hold that there wasn't a guiding map in Lucas' head, but I very much believe that the impression you walk away with from the material regarding the making of the OT (looks down at 533 page book on the subject) is that Lucas picked or settled on ideas that were often shot from the hip, but did so in part because it tied into another part of the story that had already happened, or gave him a setup for a concept for something later on (which he may or may not use in the way he was thinking at the time he made the choice about the thing that delivers the set up).

    Which... honestly ... is pretty much how the ST is working.
    It's basically improvisational Star Wars Jazz.

    Abrams, Kasdan (who worked on TFA), and RJ all know of the narrative style and full well understand the motifs of the Star Wars trilogy. It's really obvious to all of them that things like Kylo experiencing similar moments to Anakin, and Rey experiencing similar moments to Luke are going on.

    There's a basic narrative scale that exists; they're in the key of dorian D minor seven.
    But no one has a set of sheet music in front of them to play to.
    They're playing out the story by listening to the other artists before them, and then bouncing off of those riffs and solos.

    Kennedy and co. are pretty happy with TLJ, and he is still officially slotted for "Untitled Star Wars Trilogy: Episode I".

    As to Trevorrow. It had not much to do with Trevorrow's views on TLJ, but that he wouldn't let go of the script, and the review board (Lucasfilm, plus a couple Disney seats) didn't much like the scripts he was handing in. They liked the idea he originally pitched, but after the scripts started coming in, they (and I mean Lucasfilm) ended up hiring Thorne to fix up Trevorrow's script. This is about where Trevorrow began to get frustrated in his relationship with the production. He wanted his script one way; they wanted it another.

    It takes a series of frustrations over multiple deliveries of product for a production to end up telling a director to take a hike, and it's very rarely about one issue, or just something like not liking the previous film (which...I don't even think was in the can yet by the time Trevorrow was writing - he was looking at daily's, like Johnson was doing of TFA when he was writing TLJ).


    I can guarantee you that Abrams had no idea how the story would unfold.
    Even if Abrams were at the helm for all three, I can guarantee you that he wouldn't have any clue after 7, how it was going to wrap up. He would have had a general ballpark of some ideas that he used to write from, but nothing really concrete.

    I can make this guarantee because there's only one thing that Abrams has ever done that is a continual and that he wrapped up. Felicity.

    Every other serial story that he has kicked off, he has walked away from. All of them.
    And don't get me wrong; Abrams is one of my favorite directors. I love every film he's made.

    I don't, however, love every serial story that he's made. I loved where they started, but not exactly where they ended up going or ended (Lost, Fringe). And I actually have no idea, really, whether that's because Abrams wasn't there at the end, or if it would be bad anyway (see the Felicity finale that pulls a "Dallas" move).
    Abrams does like some weird styles of wrapping up stories, and doesn't shy from wrapping them up by undoing everything that preceded the ending (Felicity, Super Eight).

    So I'm expressing two thoughts here:
    A) Don't count on the man famous for the "Mystery Box" to have a super detailed plan; the ending of 7 is very Abrams and very much fitting with Abrams having no actual idea what happens next. It's kind of his thing.

    B) Don't assume that if Abrams would have been doing the writing, or even supervising, that it would inherently have been better. In fact, don't even assume that just because Abrams is coming back to END the trilogy that it's going to be good. I personally like Abrams' work, and I think I like it quite a bit more than most folks do, so I will probably like it, but I can't guarantee that it will be a popular hit or not - it's a real up-in-the-air gamble given his history.

    Also - don't take this to mean that Abrams is likely to "undo" TLJ. Abrams really loved TLJ.
    He actually said at one point that he was jealous of the screenplay; that he was envious that he hadn't written that.

    So, just be careful about resting the anti-TLJ hopes on his shoulders.

    Also...don't forget that it was only a tiny bit ago that Abrams was so quaintly called, "Jar Jar Abrams" and had also joined the camp of those who "don't get Star Wars", and "ruined my childhood", as pretty much everyone who touches Star Wars eventually earns the lashing of (I've even seen that said of Lawrence Kasdan, and even George Lucas himself).

    Just be careful of the weight you rest on the hopes for 9 if you really didn't like TLJ.
    It would be a shame if Abrams ends up on too big of a pedestal by accident and folks find out he's only a human after all. :)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #62 Jayson, May 28, 2019
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
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  3. FastestKnight

    FastestKnight Force Sensitive

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    Very well said, still, I have reservations with the "just improvise" stuff. Just because Lucas did it in the Original trilogy and it ended well, doesn't mean Kennedy, Abrams, Johnson and Kasdan couldn't have designed some kind of overall arc.

    Maybe they did, you don't pay billions of dollars for an IP just to improvise with it, but it doesn't feel that way after The Last Jedi, which you can adore of course, but I think we can agree it doesn't tie in very well with TFA.

    Also, Lucas was starting something completely new and didn't know it would succeed. And of course, things were different before.

    Star Wars is different too, yeah, but we just have witnessed two "End of a saga" outcomes: On the one hand, with Avengers Endgame, everything was planned, designed and the film was widely praised. On the other hand, with Game of Thrones Season 8, everyone agrees it was rushed, the twists were not earned and it seems that most people and fans hated it.

    We have to see what happens in Episode IX, but, like you said, Abrams isn't famous because of how well he ends the stuff he started in the first place and he only has 2/3 hours to tie 9 movies while being its own thing.
     
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  4. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Well, firstly, I expect a lot of hate regardless.
    Endgame had it's own outcry of ticked off fans, so it wasn't like it was only a positive success. It's like I've said before, it's pretty guaranteed that if you make something that rekindles something that became loved from before, or if you are ending something that has picked up a lot of fans along the way (or both), then you can almost be assured of a wealth of hate to follow.

    Or, as Hamill said, "People being mad about Star Wars? Who would have thought!"
    People have been mad since ESB. It's hard to imagine now because culturally, we hold ESB to such high levels of praise, but it's true that ESB was seen in some ways a lot like TLJ.
    It absolutely went left field from the adventurous romp that ANH was, and many were hoping that ROTJ would bring that back. And it did. Unfortunately for a bunch of folks, it also felt to many to be just a near copy of ANH and played everything safe (start out on a desert, with a run in with the degenerate denizens of society with a casino/cantina vibe, which we escape from in a mad dash - all be it, with this time being more of a flair and event, you run off, find a way to infiltrate the enemy by pretending to be them, there's another death star, you get some stolen death star plans, the death star has a single fault point, you blow it up and save the day - TADA! Except this time with Ewoks).

    People liked Darth Vader, Luke, and the Emperor, but out of folks upset about the copy/paste sensation of ROTJ, this just made it more sad because it was, to them, as if you had a good thing buried in a film that was otherwise just boring and uninspired compared to the experience of ANH.

    Now, again, that didn't last because the newer generations look on it differently and culturally we hold this film differently than that by quite a large margin.
    The prequels have somewhat the same effect occurring.
    There was a lot of hate over them, but the newer generations are growing up and saying that everyone should hold on a moment because they liked these films and they are actually good films. As time moves on, more and more folks are appreciating them. That doesn't mean they are free from the hate folks have, but the level of that hate has definitely subsided over time and the interest in the films for what they are and bring to the table has kind of had an uptick.

    Now, TLJ is very ESB, in my opinion. It just takes a wide left turn from the adventurous romp that was TFA, and like ESB it created two camps out of that where one really loved that, and the other really hated that.
    The reasons are a bit different than what happened with ESB because the landscape is different in many ways, but the same kind of thing is taking place once again.

    I won't be shocked if TLJ grows into a more widely appreciated film over the decades. Many Star Wars films have gone this route.

    I do believe they have a general ballpark of a plan, in so much as they have pretty much everything Lucas ever wrote or collected on the subject, and that library is pretty big if we're to go off of just the bits we've seen over the decades of his material, and the various iterations of ideas that he's talked about.

    We seem, for the most part, to be following this idea:

    In the sequel Luke would be a sixty-year-old Jedi knight. Han Solo and Leia would be together, although Lucas says, "They might be married, or not. We have never actually discussed marriage in this galaxy. I don't even know if it exists yet. Who knows what relationship they will have? I mean, they're together, let's put it that way. ... If the first trilogy is social and political and talks about how society evolves - Star Wars (referring to the OT) is more about personal growth and self-realisation, and the third deal with moral and philosophical problems. In Star Wars (OT), there is a very clear line drawn between good and evil. Eventually you have to face the fact that good and evil aren't that clear-cut and the real issue is trying to understand the difference. The sequel is about Jedi knighthood, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned."
    - Dennis Worrell, Icons: Intimate Portraits, 1983, p. 186​

    Mixed with this idea that Lucas and Arndt hammered out about a "girl (who was) a scavenger...the ultimate outsider and the ultimate disenfranchised person, because that person has the longest journey…" - Michael Arndt, various interviews, and Lucas' idea of Luke which included him being a hermit, doubting his life choices, doubting the Jedi way, and working through that over the course of the story and deciding to go ahead and train this new woman whom he refused at first.

    Now, Lucas wanted this all in 7; not 8, so you'd have Rey's introduction and call to adventure from 7 placed with the story of her and Luke in 8 somehow.

    However, Arndt really didn't think it was working and suggested that they push the whole Rey and Luke bit off into 8 and focus on the adventure and Rey's call to adventure story in 7.
    Everyone left after the transition liked this idea and that's what was picked.

    The one thing everyone seems to have ditched that Lucas was big on focusing on was that he wanted to make these films about the Whills.
    THAT bit seems to have been the bit that was chucked back to the shelf and not used.

    But they definitely have plans and talk about them.
    Abrams, back when he was working on 7, talked about it.

    "We didn’t write a treatment but there are countless times we came up with something and said “oh, this would be so great for Episode VIII!” or “Thats what we could get to in IX!” It was just that kind of forward moving story. But we knew this had to neither be a backwards moving nostalgic trip only nor a beginning of a movie without a satisfying conclusion, and that was part of the balancing act — embracing what we have inherited and using that where and whenever possible to tell a story that hasn’t been seen yet. We also knew that certain things were inevitable in our minds but that didn’t mean it would be inevitable for whoever came in next. When Rian [Johnson], who I admire enormously and adore, came on board, we met and talked with him about all the things we were working on and playing with, and he as a spectacular writer and director has taken those things and has written an amazing script that I think will be an incredible next chapter, some of which incorporating things we were thinking of and other things are things we could never of dreamed of." - Abrams, Interview​

    So they do have a plan, but it's not a plan like a solid rigid thing that gets set in stone and then everyone checks in where they are along that plan line.

    As such, when I say that they improvise, I don't mean purely improvise from nothing.
    There's still a basic arc and sense of what's going on clearly there, and they talk as a team about many ideas and set ups, just like Lucas did back in the day when he was working through ESB and working out how to set up for various options in ROTJ.

    In fact, in some ways, they have a better understanding of what they are going to do than Lucas did, because Lucas didn't know if ESB was going to exist and didn't set everything up exactly that outstanding in ANH to lead into ESB (ergo the knee jerk to a lot of fans who expected ANH part 2).

    ANH actually doesn't need any follow up film. It can have them, and it's fine, but it doesn't need it. It's the most complete and self-contained film of the series (for obvious logistical reasons of the time).

    However, when the new crew stepped into TFA, they knew it was going to lead to TLJ.
    Now, they didn't know it was going to lead to what TLJ became, but they knew it was going to be leading into another film, and they clearly would bump into things that they would then bookmark for VIII and discussed those things with RJ, and RJ discussed things with them about what he needed for set ups in TFA for TLJ.

    That's a LOT more than the OT had going for itself because at no point did Lucas really know for certain what kind of set up he needed out of the film he was currently working on because of the next film script he was also working on.
    He couldn't do that. He wasn't writing ROTJ while ESB was going and thinking about how he needed a set up to be added to ESB for something he had in ROTJ.

    The closest to that he could achieve was to have set ups made because of a concept he knew he would like to see about adding later IF he could.
    And so he would do things like the "There is another" Yoda line for a set up that he eventually never actually ended up using (Luke dying and another Jedi stepping up in his place), and required pivoting on his heels and finding ways to retroactively make such set ups make sense (Leia is your sister and therefore has the Force; TADA! oh...yeah, no...we're not going to do anything with that...it's just to tie up that line; sorry Leia).

    Things are much more tightly synced in the ST than they ever were in the OT.
    I would say that they aren't as tightly synced and planned as the PT, however.

    So in order of pre-planned arcs, I would say from least to most planned it would be:
    1. OT
    2. ST
    3. PT
    And if I were to do a full account of least planned to most planned, it would probably look like this:
    1. ANH
    2. ESB & ROTJ
    3. ST
    4. PT

    And yes, I will readily admit that Abrams ending a series isn't something that we've seen him do a lot.
    I don't really know what he'll actually do.
    I wouldn't say that he's bad at making endings, because I think that's a bit unclear since we haven't really seen him make that many.
    And, to be fair, Abrams version of Felicity actually ended a couple of episodes before the aired ending with a happy ending everyone more or less expected (happily ever after, all loose ends wrapped up type of thing), but the producers wanted a couple more episodes of revenue slots so Abrams had to spin on his heels and rewrite the ending a second time with something, and that ended up being the time traveling oddity that we have today.

    My main thing with Abrams is that folks shouldn't sit around and rest it all on his shoulders to "save the day" and make them like the trilogy in one film.
    I mean...people did that before with the OT and for some; that didn't work.

    If you were a kid...well, then you probably didn't notice or care and just loved the films.
    Some of the older audience, lacking the internet to rant about such things at the time, were hoping ROTJ would right the course back to an adventure romp of ANH and kind of got that, but not everyone was really that keen on how that happened.

    I won't be shocked if we see people upset and going back to name calling Abrams "Jar Jar Abrams" again. I kind of expect it.
    And I don't think it will be because IX will be garbage. I think it will be a good film that I will enjoy (primarily because I've never seen an Abrams film I haven't liked), but if someone hasn't really been enjoying the trilogy so far and just kind of mediocre or disliked VII, mediocre to hated VIII, then...I don't think Abrams is going to suddenly convert them with one film.

    It's kind of like, and I don't normally enjoy this kind of comparison, but this is anecdotal so I don't mind...It's kind of like the Marvel Movies for me.
    They bored me, and completely lost me along the way. There were a couple of good movies that I enjoyed along the way (I own Dr. Strange), but it quickly grew into a blabbering mess that I couldn't care anything about and so hoping that my opinion would suddenly be shifted based on Endgame is a long shot at best.
    Doing more of what I wasn't interested in wasn't ever going to make me more interested in what I already wasn't interested in.

    And that's how I feel about IX for folks pinning their hopes on changing how they feel about the ST. Really doubtful.

    All that said...I'll probably enjoy myself. :)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  5. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    No way I won't skip TLJ, it deserves my attention when going on a sequel trilogy run in the far future.
     
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  6. General Kenobi

    General Kenobi Rebel Commander

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    I had a friend share with me that after TFA & TLJ he has no interest in seeing TROS in the theater or maybe ever at all. :( I suggested seeing it on a big screen is always fun for the visuals alone but he wasn't swayed.
     
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  7. Reepicheep

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    I think this depends on what TRoS does with the story and how I feel about it. If TRoS manages to at least semi-redeem TLJ for me retroactively and I really like TRoS, I'll probably watch TLJ as a necessary stepping stone to get to TRoS. I could also see myself jumping from TFA straight to TRoS. For those who find this crazy, I'll just say that watching TLJ is an unpleasant experience for me and, when I want to watch Star Wars, I want to have fun.

    If I don't like TRoS, I'll probably just skip the ST altogether during marathons and think of the PT + OT as The Story and I may occasionally watch the ST as a separate thing. As it stands the ST really kills the emotional high that RotJ leaves me on.
     
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  8. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Hey, why not?

    There's folks who only watch the OT and skip everything else, and then there's even a few who only watch ANH and skip the rest (though, that demographic is getting fewer as the years pass by).

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  9. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I originally answered no in this thread, but let’s just say I’m now open to seeing the ST as only Episode 7 and 9 (depending on Episode 9),

    I recently watched TFA and TLJ back to back and I still enjoy TFA. I’ve been mixed on TLJ, but my love of the franchise has forced me to keep watching it and hope it clicks with me one day.

    I got up to the Lightsaber flip and was utterly annoyed and shut it off. The TLJ defenders can call me out all you want, but I hate the portrayal of Luke and it honestly ruins the movie for me. I’m sorry that’s the way I feel and that will never change as I’ve watched TLJ many times now.

    I don’t think watching only Episode 7 and 9 will work, but I’m going to give it a shot after seeing Episode 9 and see how it all fits. If not, than sadly the ST becomes non canon for me. It’s a shame cause I really enjoy TFA.
     
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  10. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Interestingly, the saber toss was what let me know that I was going love the film, and everytime I see it, I smile.

    It's perfect and exactly what I expect in style from an old mystic. I also love Luke growing into this. It really made me love Luke a lot more.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  11. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I respect your opinion because nobody is wrong regarding how they feel. I personally hate it as it honestly feels like something out of Spaceballs.
     
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  12. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Man, that sucks.
    It's awesome how it comes off for me! I wish I could telecast my experience into your head; it's definitely not Spaceballs. :)

    It's so one-up of Yoda rifling through Luke's survival kit and tossing things he thinks are valuable, for me. Just way the hell better.
    It's about time someone brought down the near deification of the lightsaber, and it couldn't be done any better than by Luke. Anyone else and the point would be lost. We'd think, "Ahh, they're misguided; they don't get it."
    But with Luke...well, there's simply no choice but to accept that he absolutely gets it, and rejects its perceived awe struck holiness.

    Arthur just chucked excaliber.
    That says a lot real fast. He's done a lot of s**t with that sword, and now being called upon again and handed excaliber, Arthur chucks it.
    If Arthur chucks excaliber, you know it's for a big reason and some s**t is about to go down philosophically.

    I'm not saying you have to like it. I am sorry that it bums you out, though.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  13. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    It is what it is as people have different opinions. I love Solo and totally buy Alden Ehrenreich as a young Han Solo the second he's on screen, but I totally get that certain fans don't buy him and only think of Harrison Ford as Solo (thus they aren't big fans of the movie). No offense (and I am not attacking you personally as it's more a general statement) this is what I will never understand about the TLJ defenders, is they continue to try to convince fans like me what I'm missing. I see your side, but it simply doesn't work for me (Trust me I have given this movie MANY tries so it's not like I didn't want to love the movie). Just as I will never try to convince an Anti-Solo fan why I like it. We just see it different ways. :)
     
    #73 Jedi77-83, Jul 3, 2019
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  14. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    [​IMG]

    Solo is tied for first in my SW list (along with ANH and TFA). :D

    Oh I can't imagine convincing anyone for taste. I just have nerd vomit.
    I simply hope it shares a description in idea of what I'm seeing because even if someone can't like a film, perhaps they can like the idea in thought of how I'm seeing it - even if they'll never be able to see the film that way first-hand.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  15. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    This comment contains an encrypted answer to the thread topic question.
    (r2-d2 2)
    (r2-d2 2)< cheat!
    This comment contains an encrypted answer to the thread topic question.
     
    #75 SKB, Jul 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
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  16. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel General

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    All the Star Wars saga movies are like my children. I embrace them all as family. Even Attack of the Clones. I look forward to having a complete family of three trilogies. Only the three moves in the middle of the saga are perfect. Maybe the ninth will be as good as those ones. But even of TROS is a flaming pile of garbage, I will embrace it as part of the family.

    Its the same with the Rocky movies. I have to watch all of them if I am doing a marathon. Even the fifth one. Maybe its OCD but I can't just skip over a movie because it isn't as good as the others.
     
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  17. cassidy

    cassidy Rebel General

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    I respect this, but it also goes along with the logic of "no matter what the movie is, we have to like it because it's Star Wars."

    I have an issue with that. If Disney just filmed a turd on the sidewalk for two hours and put Episode VIII on it would we accept it? Probably not.

    For this reason, I cannot watch TLJ. It's that bad (to me).
     
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  18. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel General

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    I guess I consider myself fortunate enough to find redeeming aspects of every Star Wars movie. They are all watchable to me.
     
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  19. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Agree with this. One of the biggest takeaways from ESB was Yoda not at all bringing up the lightsaber. Also his comment about wars not make one great. Luke further stresses that point that the Force is not a way to be a better swordsman. You have the oh please moment with the old lightsaber and the pseudo duel with Kylo. The Force is much more then a weapon.
     
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  20. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    I'm curious what you thought of the following:
    THX
    Willow
    Labyrinth
    Dark Crystal
    Logan's Run
    Altered States

    There's obviously no wrong answers here; I'm just curious.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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