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With Solo bombing, will 9 be the finale to The Saga?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by ScumAndVillainy, May 28, 2018.

  1. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    Which was basically bringing Star Wars back to the movie screens after ten years. That's all.
     
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  2. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel General

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    Nope. I'd say we are looking at a 5-10 year hiatus and then we will see Star Wars Episode X.

    Actually, they should do X now and then take the break. It's time to drop the trilogy constraint. Some stories only need one movie, some two, some three, maybe some will need four our five. I feel like we are in a four parter right now not a trilogy.

    There is no benefit to "ending the Saga" other than as a lackluster attempt at a short term "hook" and maybe to appease some sense of symmetry among a few fans...maybe.
     
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  3. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Crazy Old Wizard
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    I have a good friend who is tired of SuperHero films, he only saw Avengers Infinity War once( I saw it 3 times because I still collect and love comics. I published 2 independent comics, I love art, I paint and draw as much as I can, This is a great time for comic book enthusiast), he is not going out to see Ant-Man and Wasp because he is tired of all the comic book movies, yet he saw Black Panther 3 times because he liked the film and the characters very much. He even asked me if I wanted to go out and see it again with him which I did not, twice was enough for me.

    He asked me if he should go out and see Solo. I told him if you're not a Fan of Star Wars you can skip it and watch it when it hits cable. i didn't want him complaining that the film was ALRIGHT, not good, but alright. My theory is that if you are not into the genre or type of film you will experience fatigue because you are tired of seeing it. If the films are bad people will get tired of them like the Transformers films, but if the films are well made like the MCU people will continue to see them. the fans will continue to come out.

    Suicide Squad, Batman v. Superman, and Justice league are all movies that I enjoyed ( because I love comics and want more) but the general audience did not care for those films, citing that the films were bad. My theory is that if the films are good there won't be fatigue. For example, if TLJ was well received and everyone liked Luke in that film, no matter what people would have flocked out to see Solo and it would have made well over a billion dollars. A lot of people were disappointed in TLJ like Batman V. Superman, so Solo and Justice League both took similar hits.

    The only thing thats saving Episode 9 is that the general audience loved TFA, so they're gonna come out to see JJ wrap it all up. I predict the marketing will emphasize the director who bought you TFA... not TLJ haha... btw I also like TLJ. I'm not experiencing Star Wars Fatigue I'm dying for more. Bring on OB1, boba Fett, etc...
     
    #83 Rogues1138, Jun 14, 2018
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  4. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    A recent example of poor marketing was The Greatest Showman, a movie that has already built a fanatical cult-like following after release and word of mouth. Poor job up front with that one though......
     
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  5. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i agree with this. the movies can be interconnected even, but cliff hangers are irritating.
    as consumers i think the modern audience is too geared toward instant gratification for the patience a trilogy requires and you can get just as much bang from a solid two hours of film. it also would mitigate some of the crushing self-defeating weight of expectation, while still allowing enough accumulative world-building, character development, etc.

    i look at the 550 days left to wait for ix and it just exhausts me ~ hahahaha
    #FirstWorldProblems
     
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  6. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    it still sort of counts because disney was playing it off as a "Reboot" of sorts after the "disastrous" prequels and a new trilogy is once a genration for star wars
    .
     
  7. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    As much as someone saying "this is all because of TLJ" is unproven and un-supportable by any actual evidence, so is saying that TLJ has nothing to do with Solo's performance, or little to nothing. At this point we really don't know how much of an effect TLJ has had, or the recasting of Han, or any other of a dozen or so potential and probable reasons and how much impact each has had. Heck, we'll never really know how much, unless EPIX get similar money as Solo, then it would be pretty hard for anyone to deny that TLJ has had an impact (but I'm pretty sure I know a few names on here who'd claim it's still not TLJ's fault). So as much as I find those arguing that it's all TLJ's fault is not supportable, those arguing that it's not are just as wrong headed. In the end, it would be entirely better for all concerned to be diplomatic about it and say, "yeah, maybe it did, we'll see in 2019 I guess", but people here seem unable or unwilling to agree to disagree. I've never seen so many people so bent on wanting to win this argument immediately when everyone knows there simply isn't enough data to claim that "victory" without there being enough wiggle room to keep arguing the methodology or the stats presented.

    As for people following, I don't think it's a following thing. I disliked it in theater while watching it, so did my brother, cousins and son (though as I've stated before, he's not much of a SW fan to begin with, so my son doesn't really count, it's not his genre). So that statement has the stink of painting a whole lot of people with a large brush. Actually, just based on the one thread (those who hated the movie) it's pretty obvious that the dislike of TLJ is a pretty complex thing. I hear some people complain about things I had absolutely no issue with, while I complain about things other "haters" have no issue with. TLJ is kind of unique that I could probably find about 2 dozen things that are contentious to fans, and each person's dislike on those topics ranges from mild to hate. That to me leaves the whole "following" theory dead in the water.
     
  8. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    IX has always appeared to be the end of this saga and as @Darth Wardawg said, at least temporarily. There is the Benioff and Weiss movies coming in the near future. Also, at this time it appears the RJ trilogy is still a go. These movies are likely going to be the start of new sagas. Now there is always a possibility that Year’s down the road they bring back the ST characters if the actors/actresses are willing to come back. However, having episode X in the next few years has not seemed to be in the plans.
     
  9. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    I agree with what you're saying, bear in mind I wasn't making any propositions. The guy I quoted was making the proposition of having proof that TLJ damaged Solo's reception. But it's just a close proximity argument. There's not really any demonstration of anything. If episode 9 flops, then there could be a claim of proof - it wouldn't be an objectively demonstrated correlation, but it would at the least be support of the claim - whether weak or strong support would be a subjective sufficiency.

    But the difference is that the people claiming TLJ has had a negative impact are the ones making the proposition. Anyone is free to deny any proof as being, insufficient to justify the proposition. That's the thing with sufficiency, it's completely subjective. So I don't think the naysayers can be put into the same category as the yeasayers, as it were. If episode 9 flopped, and people said "It's because of episode 8 damaging the brand" then some people would say that the correlation sufficiently justifies the proposition, others would say the correlation is insufficient. Both groups would have the same justification for belief/lack of belief and the people claiming "It's because of episode 8" will always fall short of objective demonstration. Just like every proposition outside of something like an objective mathematical construct will always be questionable, no matter the proof.

    Really? That's all I see everywhere in every facet of human intellectual interaction (i.e. so many people so bent on wanting to win this argument immediately when everyone knows there simply isn't enough data to claim that "victory" without there being enough wiggle room to keep arguing the methodology or the stats presented). To my mind the diplomatic thing would be for people saying "I know X, and my proof is sufficient" to realize they don't know X and the suffiency of the proof is completely subjective.

    Eh, my experience has abundantly shown me that people are followers. To me, it's an axiom. I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, just the way that it is. I mean, in things like Twitter/Facebook/etc. it's now a manifest truth in practical function (meaning, "Who are you following on such and such?" is an actual practical question). It's all metaphoric sheep and shepherds.

    Okay but don't you find it curious you all had the exact same response? The spirit of the audience in a collective viewing will have an effect. This is why people will look at one another when something happens. They're trying to determine the "right" response. How to fit into the group. It's a matter of collective agreement. And I'm not saying this is how everyone is, but yeah, the vast majority.

    "Stink" has a negative connotation, but yeah, it is a big brush. Again though, I don't want to be taken as though I'm suggesting people are good or bad for wanting to fit into a group. It's just basic human behaviour. People are generally good. That's a big brush, but I don't think it stinks. But they will follow, and look to group agreement to determine how to act and react.

    I'm not saying they're all following the same group dynamic. Obviously there will be degrees and differences in different groups.
     
  10. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I'm not saying no one is simply "following" other people's opinion, but how many are would be as difficult to figure out than those trying to figure out how much TLJ had an impact on Solo. Yes, people follow, but how do you discern that form someone who just didn't like it upon watching it? There is no real way to figure that out to keep going we'd be arguing in circles. I for one don't think following is a major thing on either side, but I could also agree to disagree, because I think this is more something we're basing on our own experience rather than facts and figures.

    As for those arguing that TLJ had an impact on Solo, some people were giggling that there was no impact when the advance ticket sales article came out in support of Solo. I think both sides were looking to Solo as a way to argue their view point, the fact that Solo failed at the box office has given more fire to the "haters". So I think nay sayers and yay sayers are pretty much equally at fault. It's been going on since TLJ and I don't see it ending until after IX, if then. I only hope people could not take things personally or just bend a bit here and there on both sides. It would certainly help relax the tension the fandom is feeling. I have no issue with not agreeing, but allow people to agree to disagree with your point of view (not meaning you specifically, but anyone who's arguing against someone's point).
     
  11. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    But I'm not basing it on experience, I'm basing it on several practical factors; for instance, the criticisms. I can tell a person is just following a group dynamic when the criticisms are obviously being fabricated and repeated by a group. In this instance, I don't think I've heard a single criticism of TLJ that isn't painfully obvious that it's completely fabricated, other than the criticism of Luke's representation in the story.

    What I mean is that, when I hear the same criticisms being leveled against the film but a broad spectrum of people, and that criticism is based on a double-standard or a lack of relevance, then I know immeditately that the people making the criticisms are not genuine and are merely following a trend being set by other people. Examples being:

    1. Scientifically inaccurate. Criticisms against the movie for not being scientifically accurate e.g. "Bombs don't fall in space" "Leia can't survive a vacuum in space" etc. The fact is that nothing in Star Wars has ever been scientifically accurate since Luke ignited the first lightsaber in episode 4. And everybody knows this. Everybody knows that Star Wars is not about being scientifically accurate. So anyone making this criticism is showing that they are not genuine and are simply following a larger group dynamic which is detached from the truth.

    2. Misuse of terms. Anyone using terms such as "Ex Machina" "Mary Sue" etc. are clearly following others. These terms are the same as name-dropping, and they are being used in a way that is not the proper use of the term, doesn't fit the material at all, and is only being repeated by way of a kind-of mantra which is an obvious following. Ex machina doesn't mean "perfect timing", it means something written in to the story's conclusion with no purpose in the story other than to resolve the conflict. I don't think Ex Machina has existed in stories since ancient times.

    A Mary Sue is based on the concept of an author placing themselves into the story and exhibits the traits of universal capabilities, and acceptance. Rey fails all the way through TLJ. She is naive and rash, just like Luke in Empire. She fails to bring Luke back. She fails to overcome Snoke. She fails to turn Kylo. Mary Sues do not routinely fail all the way through the story. Yoda is the one who saved Luke from his state. Kylo is the one who saved Rey from Snoke. And no one saved Kylo from himself. These are not the traits of a Mary Sue, they are the traits of OT Luke 2.0.

    3. Storytelling 101. Criticisms such as "There are no character arcs" "Everything is at the same place at the end as when the story begins" etc. These are not only untrue (every character does have an arc) but these are criticisms that should also (if genuine) be made against many other films but since this is Star Wars, let's say, The Empire Strikes Back. What is the story in episode 5? Vader chases Han? What are the character arcs? Luke has no patience? Han gets frozen in carbonite?

    4. Canto scenes had no purpose. It did have a purpose, Finn - through Rose - begins to move along his arc from, run away, to, defend what you love, which is resolved in the run toward the walkers. But even if it had "no purpose in the story" the same criticism would hold true in many scenes in the films as a whole. What was the purpose of the asteroid scenes in Empire?

    5. Strategy-Sense. "That military strategy makes no sense" Tell me how much sense landing AT-ATs on Hoth makes. I've heard the strategy used on the slat planet "Makes no sense, why would you land the walkers so far away from the target?" while in the same breath talking about how great Empire is - when Empire has the exact same scene. Military strategy generally doesn't make sense in Star Wars (or, any movie for that matter) for the same reason it's not scientifically accurate: because it's a space opera not a documentary. And everyone knows this is the case.

    6. It's SJW. This is clearly projecting a biased interpretation onto an inherently blank canvas of film interpretation. It's a political agenda, and it's not genuine criticism.

    7. They ruined Luke. This is the one criticism that I've seen that is genuine, though misguided. Dislike of this is even expected. I disliked it. Because no one will like seeing someone they care about being at the nadir of their story. But it's not a criticism of the film, it is a response based on empathy. Luke was definitely down in the dumps, and I didn't like seeing it. But he came back to himself in the end, and that completes his arc, and brings Luke back. People claiming "Ruined Luke" are detached from the finale, and not taking that ascent from the nadir into account. They are picking and choosing that on which to formulate a criticism by criticisizing the one, and rejecting the other. That's fabricated criticism, and fabricated criticism is a sure sign of a person merely mimicing a following.

    So by these, I can tell that the hate was entire pre-packaged, and the criticisms entirely fabricated to justify the pre-packaged dislike. I'm not saying the dislike is not genuine, but that it is clearly the result of a mass following.

    On the flip side, a great number of people who loved the film are also followers. But the difference is that they are following something they like, even love. Their praise is genuine. It isn't being fabricated any more than praise of someone you love, and how everything they do is perfect. This isn't fabricated, it is the genuine result of sincerely liking/loving a person so that your ability to criticize that person is diminished to the point of virtual impossibility.

    Note that I'm not saying, everyone who disliked the movie went into the movie determined to dislike it, but the vast majority of everyone I've seen criticizing it did. The way a person criticizes the film will make manifest to me whether their feelings are pre-packaged followings, or, genuinely didn't like the film. And I've yet to see genuine critcisms outside of the Luke storyline.

    All I can say about this is that the burden of proof is on people making claims, and that burden will always be subject to a sufficiency which is subjective. Outside of an objective frame of reference such a math, any proof can be rejected as insufficient with complete justification based on self-imposed subjective requirements.
     
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  12. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I can get into it with every response you made, but this isn't the "hate" thread, so I'll let it go by copping out and agreeing to disagree lol. That's not to say I disagree with everything said, but I believe you're drawing your conclusions based on your view point (and I'm probably drawing mine from my viewpoint). In both cases it's biased. So again, it's an agree to disagree scenario or we can keep on arguing with no possible end in sight. I'm not keen on that so if you'd post this in the "hate this movie" thread, I may get into it with you at some point, or allow others to because I really don't have much of an appetite for it at this moment.

    As for the last part, claiming that Solo has felt no effect from TLJ is the same as saying it's failure is all about TLJ. We can argue semantics, but in the end both sides are taking a stand on a hill that is doom to be lost and regained over and over again. By the end of the war, that hill will be a crater. Neither side of the argument is defensible. The burden of proof lays equally on both sides and neither can produce it sufficiently to allow for no further argument.
     
  13. Darth Cylon

    Darth Cylon Rebel General

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    This will absolutely be the end of the saga. Not because Solo didn't do well, but because that was always the plan.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 19, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 19, 2018 ---
    Great post. Agreed with everything you said.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 19, 2018 ---
    Where is this two minutes of Luke in IX coming from? Have you all seen the future and know Luke will only be in this film for that long? I don't understand where this is coming from. I keep seeing people mention that Luke will only be in IX for two minutes and this is just mind blowing to me that people think we won't get great pay offs with ghost Luke.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 19, 2018 ---
    I think Luke's ghost unleashed using his power greater then any Jedi could be badass if they went that route.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 19, 2018 ---
    Half of the BO of TFA would still be 1 Billion soo... Still a massive success.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 19, 2018 ---
    Yeah but they still said it was going to end the Skywalker Saga. The end of the divine bloodline.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 19, 2018 ---
    That's a very cynical way to slap fellow Star Wars fans in the face who enjoy all aspects of Star Wars entertainment. Marvel does the same thing already and not everyone goes to see some of the smaller films like Ant Man and Doctor Strange. There are ways to please the die hards and the causal fans. Just because you are bored by easter eggs and connective tissue to other shows doesn't mean the fans who do spend their time digging into that stuff are.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 19, 2018 ---
    "The greatest teacher failure is."
     
  14. metadude

    metadude Rebelscum

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    I'll post it in the "hate" thread, sure. If you want to respond, feel free but just to be clear, even if you don't I won't take that in any sort of unfavorable way. Meaning I don't want you to feel like you have to reply to something if you don't wish to do so. But I'll be up front and say, I'm always open to re-evaluation, but I'm of the mind that these points aren't really open to "refutation". The only genuine criticism will be completely subjective in scope "I thought it was boring" "I couldn't follow the story" "I didn't like the characters" "I just don't like Star Wars" etc. Whenever anyone is trying to strain a subjective experience into an objective criticism, it's fabricated.

    No, they're not the same, one is a negative claim the other is positive. If a guy says "There are elves" and another guy says "There are no elves", the former has the burden of proof, the latter doesn't, because you can't prove a negative. You can't prove there are no elves.
     
  15. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    Yes, I saw a clink in the MCU armor. IW was an "event film" not BP. IW should of made more $ domestic then BP. (I'm not a racist, I loved BP) But it was the other way around.

    It's like if R1 made more then TLJ.
     
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  16. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Do you think Ant-Man is going to make a billion dollars because Infinity War was well received?

    I know a bunch of Star Wars fans who liked TLJ who never bothered to see Solo. They didn't care enough about a recast prequel Solo go out and watch it. Ultimately the failure here is that the story idea and marketing didn't excite enough people.
     
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  17. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    Liked TLJ....
    Not loved.
     
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  18. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Crazy Old Wizard
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    The first Ant-man film did not make a billion dollars but the first Star Wars Standalone film did, so Solo could have come close if TLJ was well received overall. My point is BvS was not well received so Justice League suffered (JL should have done as good as or better then IW), so Solo suffered from TLJ. The marketing dept. could have done a better job, haha but we're ultimately talking about a Star Wars film... The first Star Wars ( in terms of the new films) flop is Solo. I also think that they should have made a Solo film with Ford, since he has a huge fan following and beloved in the role however, HARRISON FORD HATES STAR WARS HE WANTED TO DIE SINCE JEDI. he wanted to be free of Star Wars, apparently he detest fanboys and with all this star wars toxicity Ford was right to leave star wars fandom behind... its so toxic...

    ford fooled everyone, his first convention appearance he made was because his character was being killed off because he wanted nothing to do with Star Wars and I certainly don't blame him anymore, he foresaw this toxic fan base and wanted no part of it what so ever... reaching I know...

    GEORGE ASKED HIM YEARS AGO WOULD HE BE INTERESTED IN MAKING A HAN SOLO FILM AND FORD SAID LUCAS IS OUT OF HIS MIND. DISNEY WAS OUT OF THEIR MINDS FOR MAKING A SOLO FILM without ford, so ironic.... FORD WAS RIGHT. UNFORTUNATELY FANS LIKE ME liked Solo... Alden did a great job.
     
  19. dudebrohomie

    dudebrohomie Rebel Official

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    I"m pretty sure that the box office 'bomb' that is Solo: A Star Wars Story will cause Disney to house Star Wars for good. I'm guessing JJ gets the call to just board this thing up as a bad idea, and move on.

    Wouldn't it be great if they just decided "you know? Let's just not...."

    Solo didn't make a crap-ton of money (by SW standards).

    So?

    One of my top films of all time is 'Fantastic Mr. Fox'. It made less at the box office than I have in my change drawer, I'd bet. But I don't think less of it. ("The cuss, you are.")

    By most reviews, Solo's downfall wasn't due to content. It was a competent movie, at worst. Many non Star Wars fans that I know (my wife, my daughter-in-law) said it was their favorite.

    The saddest thing is, I'd love to see a sequel to Solo much MUCH more than I'd like to see the 'saga' continue. Nothing against what JJ and Rian have done, but I'm all in on the side stories. I just think there's more material to mine, if you get my drift.
     
  20. Fearghas_Ajax

    Fearghas_Ajax Force Sensitive

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    It would have been nice if they made one twenty years ago. What type of young Solo movie were they going to make with a 75 year old Ford?

    Don't think I have ever heard him say that. Seems a lot of assumed words are being put into his mouth to me.

    Really think that was the reason he attended the convention? He didn't have to agree to be in the movie in the first place. Think you are making a lot of assumptions.

    I know he had hired Kasdan to write the story before being sold to Disney but missed where he asked Ford about it.
     
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