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Women in The First Order?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Daft Ada, Apr 17, 2017.

  1. Daft Ada

    Daft Ada Rebelscum

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    One of the most telling aspects of Palpatine's Empire is its lack of diversity. Exclusively male, exclusively white and exclusively human, the Imperials of Episodes IV, V and VI drew comparisons with Hitler's regime and I always felt the comparison was appropriate. (The Imperials were all British, too, which I suppose is another matter - one that should be dealt with by those people who make fan-edits where they dub Jar Jar's voice because it offends their white, liberal sensibilities.)

    Such a lack of diversity is there for a purpose. So why do we now have a First Order (which is the Empire in all but name) which includes women officers and stormtroopers? I notice they're all still human (and British) but, unless the inclusion of women is a plot-point in itself, then shouldn't the dastardly, war-mongering First Order still be a male-only domain?
     
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  2. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    the principles of the First Order aren't 100% Imperial. the FO acknowledges that the Empire made mistakes.
    the reason all the officers are "British" is because they were raised from the children (and bastards) of Imperials (male or female), so the constitution of the Order itself is deliberately homogenous in some ways.

    they also have an alien for a figurehead, they are not as opposed/skeptical about using Force energy.
    and somewhere out there is a Chiss we all know, who almost certainly had influence on the rise of this order.

    likewise (and more to the point), Rae Sloane is one of the founding leaders of the FO (so far as we can tell), so yes, women would certainly hold high rank in this new regime.
     
    #2 FN-3263827, Apr 17, 2017
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  3. Addi Ras

    Addi Ras MASTER TEA MAKER
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    Thats beginning to be addressed in the new canon books & the up coming Battlefront 2 where the single player campaign will be canon. The empire certainly has a human biase & that's alluded too in the books that while it's not official policy they make it difficult for non humans to ether enter the imperial academy's or progress up the ranks (This makes Thrawn stand out from the norm even more & he experiences quite a bit of resentment for his rise through the ranks. They don't seam to have the same problem with female cadets rising through the rank I suspect that the male bias in the films was due to the lack of availability of female actors at the time. If they were made now I would expect a much more even distribution of males & females in the ranks.
    The FO will be almost exclusively human due to there origins & again as I suspect most of the FO personnel will be from imperial heritage so a the distribution is much more balanced.
     
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  4. Daft Ada

    Daft Ada Rebelscum

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    Chiss? Rae Sloane? Sorry, you've lost me.

    What you seem to be saying, though, is that the First Order recognised that one of the errors the Empire made was in not having women in their ranks. Whereas what I am saying is that George Lucas was making a specific point in having the Empire be all-male. Traditionally (and the original six-part series is steeped in tradition. I can't make the same claim for the new films as they seem pretty shallow to me.) women represent peace; they carry life within them and are at one with all. They nurture; they do not make war.

    The first female character we see in A New Hope is Princess Leia. Deliberately presented to us all in white, she is the bringer of peace to the galaxy, representative of the rebellion against tyranny and oppression. The first female character we see in The Phantom Menace is Queen Amidala, leader of a lush planet where rolling hills of green and lush waterfalls abound. She bristles at the idea of conflict and refuses to condone any action that will bring her people into war.

    In both trilogies, the bad guys are notably free of any female presence. It is not until The Clone Wars where we will encounter any female villains and even then there is some ambiguity - Ventress started out as a Jedi and after crossing over to the dark side she is betrayed and finds herself caught between both sides; Aurra Sing is a bounty hunter and as such she has no allegiance to either side. Mother Talzin is a witch (again, that most traditional of villains) and also exists outside the camp of good and evil.

    I suspect that the decision to have female officers and stormtroopers in The First Order was not fully thought through by the makers of these films. It simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2017 ---
    I really don't think so.
     
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  5. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    TFA takes place 30 years after ROTJ, so even if we assume that the Empire's staff consisted of white men the First Order's employment policy could have been uptadeted to be more inclusive, just like in modern world there's much more diversity in US Army in terms of sex and race. Sure, white males are still the most frequent group, but many more groups are present than there were 30 years ago. I don't understand how it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Time passes and things change.
     
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  6. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i'm talking about the Aftermath books.

    the First Order is not the Empire.
    so whatever George Lucas might have originally conceived in that vein is moot.
    the First Order is the First Order.
    so far what we know of its origins is that a woman, Admiral Rae Sloane, took an "ark" of Imperials to the Unknown Regions to probably meet up with Thrawn (the Chiss), and begin to form the new order.

    it's thoroughly thought out. and absolutely stands to scrutiny.

    the First Order has, as its commanding general, the son of a relative nobody, who is a bastard to boot: therefore technically impure. (Hux)
    and again, an alien for a figurehead (Snoke).
    both very deliberately against Imperial standards.
    nothing about its composition is exactly the same as the old Empire.
    it appears to have a bias toward human leadership, but there's still a lot we don't know.

    i didn't even have to click your profile to know that you must be a man ~ hahaha
    if you've ever seen women fight, you know that they are more vicious and more cunning than men;
    they absolutely have the capacity for violence; they serve in our armies (as combatants), and they will kill to protect their families, countries, ideals, etc.

    General Leia and Mon Mothma, despite being politicians, have been making war since the OT.
    yes, Padme desired to be a pacifist, but even she took up a gun when necessary.

    it's true we don't have a definitive statement on the status of women, but their presence is evidence enough.
    yes, you could argue that new canon has tinkered with Lucas' original vision (Lost Stars and the Aftermath books both show women in the Empire in leadership positions--though they do struggle), but more importantly, as i said at the beginning, the FO is not the Empire and has deliberately changed its power structure.
     
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  7. GingerByte

    GingerByte Guest

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    Females can definitely exist in the First Order and hold up to scrutiny.

    When it comes to the OT era and the Empire though, it gets a little murky. Most of the time it works, it's only when they attempt to add females to pre-existing locations, vehicles etc that it falls flat imo.

    Since the First Order is a new organisation in a new era, there is no pre-existing material that can cause people to doubt the authenticity of what's presented to them.
     
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  8. Daft Ada

    Daft Ada Rebelscum

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    I think it's worth a few of you checking my original post. I make no mention of the EU books in there, just the films. It seems there is much that is not clear to those who have responded thus far and I'm not sure as to whether the blame lies with me and how I have put myself across and the inability of those here to understand it.

    So that we're clear, I'm talking about the decision of the makers of The Force Awakens to cast females as members of The First Order and why, in the context of the saga (the film is subbed Episode VII so it deserves to be crticised in the context of the larger story) such a decision does not stand up to scrutiny.
     
    #8 Daft Ada, Apr 18, 2017
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  9. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i sincerely apologize for offending you by calling you a man (was completely not my intention).
    but your remark about women was pretty off-putting to me so let's just call it even and move on. fair?

    of course if people make the assumption that the First Order = the Empire, then something is going to look hinky here.
    but nowhere in the movies is it stated that the FO is the Empire, so that's not a problem with the film, it's a problem with the assumption.

    i don't really understand the point of discussing the movies out of context of the EU since all of this is completely explained there, so i will happily recuse myself.
     
    #9 FN-3263827, Apr 18, 2017
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  10. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    Star Wars has been since the very beginning a strongly feminist franchise and the fact that there are women in army is just a continuation of this trend. Also, a reminder - we saw women as soldiers both in OT and PT. In Episode V one of the communications officer was a woman and in Episode I we saw a couple of female pilots, both serving the Republic and Naboo army. Once more I remind you that time also passed between Episode VI and VII and attitudes towards specific groups, like women in army, change with time in real world, just like people chsnge the way they look. If you can accept that Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker is the same person despite being played by five actors, you should also be able to accept a change in the Empire's, and later the First Order's employment policy.
     
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  11. Rieekan

    Rieekan SWNN Hawkeye
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    There wasn't a lack of diversity, we just didn't see all Stormtroopers in the OT without helmet.
    Here is a pic from the imperial academy.
    [​IMG]

    Mr Leonis is actually looking for his sister.
    The old EU had female admirals and imperial assassins in the Empire.
    Listen we don't want personal attacks and threats of "rating wars" here, so please use those negatives not lightly. @all, address the post not the poster.
     
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  12. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    In-universe explanation

    There was a ceiling for female officers in Palpatine's galactic empire, but that ceiling fractured with the fall of the emperor. The First Order realized that it were the actions of female imperial officers which helped the Empire survive and reform in the aftermath of the destruction of the second Deathstar. Female officers like Iden Versio (Battlefront 2), Rae Sloane and Ciena Ree who led the charge in the final days of the empire. Furthermore, a paradigm change in terms of gender roles is only natural for a militant organization that is short on money, people and resources and is facing an acute existential threat.

    Lucasfilm explanation

    Star Wars main audience has always consisted of men and women. However there were specific characteristics which made the Star Wars franchise perhaps less attractive to women than it deserved:

    1. Most main characters in EU and movies were male. The main story was primarily focused around the fate and fortune of two male protagonists: Luke and Anakin. Even though there were women fans they had less female characters that represented their side of the story. Furthermore the representation of women in Star Wars uncomforably hovered between either a strong feminst representation or an overtly sexist portrayel.

    2.
    As a consequence Star Wars actually was less attractive to women which ultimately meant they were in the absolute minority as compared to male fans.

    3. There is also a missed business opportunity of course. Making Star Wars more attractive to a female demographic also means more female fans and hence more income.

    The inclusion of woman, even retrojectively into the main canon, is a way of remedying these problems.
     
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  13. Daft Ada

    Daft Ada Rebelscum

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    I never viewed the absence of women in the Empire as being the result of a draconian employment policy as much as I viewed the lack of femininity as a point being made on the part of the storyteller, that the Empire was this sterile, austere environment. It was not something that created life, it was something that crushed it. They grew their army from a test tube, remember?

    Yes, there are women in the rebellion - I made that point already - but ask yourself what does the rebellion stand for? And what does the Empire stand for? And then ask yourself why would a woman want to join such an organisation? The First Order is the Empire so let's not waste time with semantics.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2017 ---
    Spare me this ridiculous, revisionist ret-con cartoon please. And I've already said enough times that I am addressing the issue of femininity in the films, not the EU.

    As for threats, I haven't threatened any one. The comment I made was a warning, not a threat. I don't know what "rating wars" are but you're a member of staff, aren't you? And you have rules here regarding sexist remarks, presumably. So you'll know that such comments should be taken seriously. Do you consider that accusing the victim of a sexist remark of making "personal attacks" is taking the matter seriously? See, I don't see you addressing the perpetrator here, only the victim.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2017 ---
    Surely the answer would be to have more female "good guys", then? Rather than the somewhat hopeless silver stormtrooper in The Force Awakens.
     
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  14. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    Yes we'll be keeping a close watch on you good sir. :p:p:p:p:p

    [​IMG]

    Hux out.
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 18, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 18, 2017 ---
    Only 'female' good guys is also a sexist construct. For good order, I never reply to just snippets quoted from my original post. I only reply to posters who reply to my entire argument.
     
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  15. Trevor

    Trevor Rebellion Arms Supplier
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    The Staff will be handing out the "Warnings" in this place.

    To ALL...

    Right away, we're all going to remember something right here; You are all "debating" in this thread some kind of sexism in a FICTIONAL UNIVERSE...that alone should be enough said, however I've seen a couple of remarks here that have warranted this statement which is non-negotiable:

    Please remember that in this forum, you all will address the post and not the poster, and if there has been intentional offense conveyed (like condescension and/or any personal attack) please use the "Report" button and the staff will attend to it. The same statement applies to unfair or intentional application of ratings as a form of punishment to a perceived "opponent" in a debate. Personal attacks of any kind will not be tolerated...in any way, and in the event that staff finds the need to intervene in a continuing debate that repeated involves any of the aforementioned offenses, it will be dealt with swiftly.

    Now, all of that being said; This thread contains a subject (not unlike the "racism" subject that has seen the banning of several members in the past) that is honestly something that shouldn't even be the topic of conversation in regards to a fictional universe, but I'm going to allow it to move forward as it could be a healthy discussion about the mindset of said in-universe personnel.

    Please stay on-track, avoid any personal attacks and/or ratings punishment, or this thread will be locked and the offenders will be dealt with....swiftly.
     
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  16. Lord Denton

    Lord Denton Rebel Commander

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    On the topic of the Empire being modeled after Nazi Germany, for sure, the original poster is correct.
    The Empire, in the old Legends EU and the new official canon, does indeed have a bias towards Male Humans.
    The only alien and female exceptions being extremely talented and deserving of their place, because the Emperor respects talent, no matter where it comes from.
    However, in terms of the First Order, it's not so much modeled after Nazi Germany as it is more modern issues.
    The First Order and its members represent a younger generation who ignore heroes of the past and idolise monsters, committing atrocities in the name of what they consider to be right.
    Whereas the Old Empire represented a faceless,monolithic, oppressive corporation or regime, the First Order is more along the lines of an extremist group or misguided young people who shoot up schools.
    Story wise, the remnants of the Empire that fled and became the First Order simply couldn't be picky about whom they accept and do not, they simply wouldn't have had the numbers for that, and by the time of The Force Awakens, decades later, you've had a society built upon several powerful female voices, the gender disparity wouldn't exist in that type of society anymore.
    In terms of women representing life and peace in the Episodes I-VI, the original poster is correct in a sense, that Lucas was certainly playing on some of those ideas, but the new films are also a reflection of a changing society, both real and fictional, and that women (like all people) can be both good and evil.

    So I personally do not believe there to be an issue showing women in positions of power within the First Order, it simply makes sense from a narrative point of view, as well as a real world one.
     
  17. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

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    First Order was in fact founded by a woman. Admiral Rae Sloane. (Aftermath: Empire's end). She prevented abosolute oblivion of remnants of the Imperial Forces at Jakku, as Palpatine give an order to Admiral Gallius Rax to take care Empire doesn't live anymore if he dies.

    S.n.o.k.e. came onto a stage in later years and took control of the First Order that escaped into unknown Regions under command of Rae Sloane..


    Admiral Rae Sloane, last commander of the Impierial forces escaping into Unknown Regions.
    [​IMG]
     
    #17 McDiarmid, May 7, 2017
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  18. Lady Oola

    Lady Oola Rebelscum

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    I agree with you. Once the Empire went down it would be obvious that they would have to learn from their mistakes and if they indeed wanted to be back on top they couldn't afford to be picky. They needed manpower fast so things like color or gender would not matter. Another thing we have to consider is that Snoke is now running things instead of the Emperor so his ideals may be extremely different.
     
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