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Would No Additional Backstory Affect Your Opinion of the ST?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by SegNerd, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. GotTheSilver

    GotTheSilver Rebel Official

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    This post gave me an interesting thought. In TLJ, Rey believed one thing about about Kylo Ren when she heard Luke's explanation of how he turned and destroyed the academy. Then she believed something else when she heard Kylo's version of the story. What if we get something similar with Kylo? He currently believes one thing about Vader because it is what Snoke told him. What if Anakin's ghost appears to Kylo and tells him his version of the story, thus changing Kylo's perception of the situation and of his grandfather? It's like poetry.
     
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  2. Sparafucile

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    I don't think it has to be particularly long or detract from the story. I don't thinks they should dwell on it, but some aspects need to be in there in regards to backstory. @Maximus hits in on the head imo.

    As much as I'm greatly dissatisfied with the Luke/Kylo dynamic, grudgingly I have to admit that at this point it could wait for books, comics, cartoons ect... for me it will take away from the ST, but that ship h as sailed, the time to expand on that has passed.

    Snoke kind of fits the same mold. Maz at this point is interesting, but even less of the story than Luke, who's the last Skywalker or the closing chapter of the Skywalker saga.

    Not explaining Vader's link to Kylo/Ben would feel odd however since it seemed to be pretty integral to the story. I think if that isn't explained it would feel odd having that included in TFA without having it be a part or a reveal of some kind to Kylo in some way.

    The KoR don't need much more explanation. They rebelled against Luke and joined Kylo. Since then they've been agents of Evil imposing their will and that of Snoke and now Kylo. That can be covered in a few seconds and throw away line, or by implication.

    Rey's a little more contentious and it depends what explanation they want to have for her, if any. If she's just another force user who's a natural, then it doesn't require much more than a throw away line. If she's some sort of Chosen One, then I feel they need to explain that, but I don't know how or who would do that. I don't think her family needs any more unless if they want to make it part of the story.
     
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  3. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    One of my main criticisms of the ST as a whole (well, the 2/3rds of it we have) is that there is ridiculously little explanation of how we got from the end of E6 to the beginning of E7. (EU sources do not count) And I say that as someone who enjoyed E7. So yes, E9 continuing the trend of providing no backstory would be a valid criticism of the ST although at this point, I think the ship has sailed....
     
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  4. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    The Return of the Jedi ends without learning more about the Clone War, Palpatine, Yoda, Padme and Obi-Wan.

    The only thing I would be puzzled about if they're not talked about or shown in IX are the Knights of Ren. This is only because they were shown in the forceback in TFA. They weren't necessary for the story in TLJ, but Luke hints that Kylo left with a handful of students and Rian Johnson was coy when he was asked about if they'd be in the next film.
     
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  5. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Jedi Commander

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    Maybe, but it could be something as simple as someone relaying to Rey that:

    "Kylo Ren betrayed and turned on his fellow Knights Of Ren, murdering them all and taking his place as Snoke's apprentice."

    That would be the job done! No more on-screen story needed.

    At the end of the day, regardless of what they call themselves - be it Knights Of Ren or Sith, they are all the same. The 'rule of two' is not really a 'rule'. It's just the nature of the beast.
     
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  6. Sparafucile

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    I gave that a like, but it would be a disappointing way to go, even if I had thought of that possibility too. They could even have been killed in the time gap between TLJ and IX or before the ST. Not seeing that on screen though, I'd feel a little bit cheated.
     
  7. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    Because it's all about context. The OT was told as a 3 part Trilogy where you didn't get a backstory on everyone as the main focus was the micro story on Luke/Vader. The PT took that micro story and broadened and brought out the whole galaxy, the politics, the Jedi order, etc. Episodes 7,8,9 now come after 2 Trilogies, so you have to be more specific and more diligent or it just looks like these characters appeared out of nowhere because you are still telling a linear story.

    That is why I continue to say that a backstory on Snoke was not critical to pleasing the fans, it was critical to the 9 part story of where this guy was before Episode 7? How is this powerful dark side user just appear in Episode 7 of this narrative out of nowhere, was he hiding out during the OT? Was he a disciple of The Emperor in case he died? Was he part of an overall plan by Sith? Was he a good guy gone bad? The lack of backstory works in the OT because the story was told on a small scale, but Episode 7,8,9 doesn't have that luxury because the bigger story has already been told in the PT, and now you have a different narrative.
     
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  8. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Or you dont. Highly doubtful if you walk out of Ep9 and feel any different about the film or the trilogy if there is a throw away line or 2 where Hux or Kylo mention that Snoke was say imprisoned in the unexplored regions of the galaxy. Then you need back story of how he got there, what was he imprisoned. Not imprisoned, but lost. Then you need backstory on how he got lost. Who was he traveling with. Oh not lost, but just lived in there. Why did he stay there? Where did his power come from? Why couldnt he get away and explore? Best left as a mystery to be solved in media yet to be produced, be it books, comics, TV, etc.
     
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  9. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

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    I disagree because the less that is explained about the ST, the more it feels like a detached story. Right now for me, Episode 7,8,9 feels like a reboot as all of the key characters are just updated characters from the OT: Snoke = The Emperor, Rey = Luke, Kylo Ren = Vader, Luke = Yoda, Resistance = Rebellion, First Order = The Empire, Starkiller Base = Death Star. Now what could have changed this Trilogy for me is if Snoke was a part of some master plan by The Emperor that comes full circle now, as it would explain why the Rebels did not win the whole battle in ROTJ (ROTJ ends with the chosen one destroying the Sith). But as long as this Trilogy feels like the OT (because every character resembles an OT character) then it is going to feel like a reboot instead of a continuation of the 1-6 story and a new 1-9 arc.
     
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  10. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    What you are asking for takes far too much time to be effectively told in EP9. They mention it in a throw away line or two and it makes the issue worse, not better. Well that is if you believe it is an issue at all.
     
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  11. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    Were you wanting the information from how we got from the end of E6 to the beginning of E7 in the movies? 30 years is a long time and a lot can happen during that time period. It would be very tough to pack in 30 past years into these movies and still continue to move the story forward.

    Now I agree we have not gotten much in the form of any canon material that covers the gap between E6 and E7. The Aftermath series and a comic or two cover the time period right after RTOJ. Bloodline covers the time period shortly before the time of TFA. There definitely is a lot of space to be covered in between. I think they are allowing the ST to play out and finish before we get any of those stories. However, those stories are likely going to come out in different media than movies.
     
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  12. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    You leave the backstory out so that the creative people creating the films have freedom to make decisions not dictated by past events in the Star Wars Universe. Once EP9 is complete then the stories before the ST will have more freedom to explore and know what they can and cant do.
     
    #32 KeithF1138, Jan 15, 2019
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  13. Steven Lewis

    Steven Lewis Rebelscum

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    I think more backstory and creativity was needed in TFA to be honest.

    The OT characters and story hadn't really moved forward, Han was still a smuggler and Leia the face of the Resistance. The whole Resistance and First Order were basically the same Rebellion and Empire. There was no real creativity in TFA, and yet JJ pulled off the impossible and made an enjoyable fun ride.

    While the OT didn't fill backstory, it can be argued that GL took the oppurtunity to do so with the PT. There are problems, but 1-6 are now presented very much as a two part Saga and a conclusion in RotJ.

    Lucasfilm could have done with taking maybe another year or two to develop a clear direction, taking the MCU planning as inspiration, before starting the ST.
     
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  14. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    I agree
     
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  15. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    I don't think it would have been all that hard but, quite honestly, what they should have done was made the start of E7 more in line with the end of E6 instead of giving us the radical change we got. The start of E7 is more in line with the start of E4 than it is the end of E6.
     
  16. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    Do you mean as far as the state of the galaxy?
     
  17. Sparafucile

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    There are a lot of ways to explain Snoke not being in the OT that could be summed up in a line or two. He could have lived on a planet not yet discovered on the edge of the Unknown Regions of space where they weren't scientifically sophisticated enough to make spaceships, but spiritual enough to manipulate the force. Nothing about Snoke in either movie screams technologically adept. Although I am curious about this part of his past, I'm more curious on how he affected Ben Solo. I could actually see a few dropped lines like this being a great prelude to an animated saga or series about Luke and company in the near aftermath of RotJ.

    Imagine, around the same time Sidious dies in RotJ, Thrawn finds Snoke, then we get a re worked version of the Thrawn trilogy, with Snoke taking C'baoth's place, or maybe even Luuke's place. You don't just want those throw away lines tossed in there to appease a demographic of fans, because it won't. Those fans who want additional exposition are not just being loud to complain, they were introduced to this large world of SW by GL and want to continue to revel in it. That's the point, we want to be satisfied, we're not looking to never be satisfied. You want it to add to the fabric of the SW universe, something to explore further yet explain enough, hint enough for fans to be able to say something like "okay, isolated, found, I can put this together now..." instead of the questions we're getting now. At the same time you want them to speculate on the hints given in the film.

    GL did this well on several occasions, which gave the OT a sense of grandeur. The Kessel Run, the bounty hunter at Ord Mandell, Han's debts to pay, the Battle of Taneb come to mind. Fans didn't demand about those because they were obviously separate, though some were curious to hear or read those stories. They did give the galaxy a lived in feel though.

    Snoke is not the equivalent of those, because he's super powerful, evil and supposedly living at the same time of Vader and Sidious, during the Jedi Purge when force users were probably most at risk. Add that it's mentioned in TFA that he had a hand in turning Ben, that makes him relevant to the story even more. How, where and why come to mind. Where was Luke? What did the OT3 do? When did they find out this was happening? How did Snoke do it? Why did he do it? Where was Snoke? Was he in disguise? Was he doing this from far away? Did Luke know, or when did Luke find out? How did Snoke know about Ben? Did he know about Luke too? Was it revenge or a means to an end (was he mad Luke killed Sidious, or even know that he did)? I can go on and on. Not all those questions need full answers, but some of them do imo. So many questions and they all pertain to the story directly, because if Snoke doesn't do this, then Ben likely/maybe doesn't turn, or if he turns it's on him and not someone else, so less sympathy. If you want me to have sympathy for the guy who does all these evil acts, and you hand out an overlapping excuse for his behavior but leave a big gaping hole in that reasoning, you can be sure I'll question it and want more answers. Those answers tie into backstory on Snoke and those questions are begging to be answered because we're asked to sympathize with the bad guy.

    The OT escaped this because Vader didn't get the vulnerable moments Kylo is getting. He had his mask on at all times, or at least there weren't any facial shots without, we never saw sorrow or doubt. We weren't meant to sympathize with him, and therefor ask "how did this poor guy get to be this?". With Kylo we do, and we get lines that imply it wasn't his fault, or at least not entirely, but they stop the exposition there. Just because fan A absolves Ben of his decisions because he was abused, does not mean fan B will, given the details. To avoid this, they avoid giving details, but it was made in such a way that the details actually matter to the story because it was introduced to us in a way that made it matter to the story. We can't form an opinion without those details, at least not one based on facts.

    I think much of this would have been avoided without Leia's one line in TFA's. Take out that Leia thought Snoke was to blame, and Snoke becomes Palpatine and no longer needs a back story, or at least not on the same level. The assumption would be he met Snoke later and it becomes irrelevant. Then a throw away line works very well to explain Snoke's whereabouts during the OT and possibly PT. That Leia line charges everything though, and echoes into everything we see Kylo do as we question how much is him and how much is Snoke and all those untold details. It makes Snoke more relevant to the story, because he's part of the conflict between Luke and Ben.

    So basically there are 2 kinds of people who are dissatisfied with the lack of backstory for Snoke.

    Those who wonder where he was, which could be easily explained. Then there are those who feel a need to know how he helped corrupt Ben, because Leia's line.

    In both cases, one line added and one removed could stop this insanity lol. I think his death only serves to irritate fans, because if he were alive, we'd expect an explanation in IX, but now that he's dead it's unlikely there will be any answers.
     
    #37 Sparafucile, Jan 18, 2019
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  18. Apprentice of the Wills

    Apprentice of the Wills Rebel Commander

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    I also don't think it would have been all that difficult for them to have caught us up on the context of the galaxy in E7 with a couple of well-placed scenes and additional lines of dialogue. In ANH, the opening raid on Leia's ship and the immediate aftermath showed the current state of the galaxy while Obi-wan's history lesson with Luke explained how we got there.


    The raid on the village at the beginning of TFA mirrors the raid on Leia's ship and I think Han was supposed to be that Obi-wan mentor for Rey, but he doesn't give us all that much to work with in catching us up on the state of affairs of the galaxy.
     
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  19. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Yes, although they probably could have had a bit more character exposition too.
     
  20. Jedi MD

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    The state of the galaxy at the beginning of TFA was different then in IV. However the way it was presented it was very similar. If they would have spent a little time showing that the New Republic did not see the FO as a threat and that the Resistance was actually a splinter group off of the New Republic then I think the current state of the galaxy would have not resembled lV.
     
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