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Would you rather have George back??

Discussion in 'General Movie Discussion' started by Trevor, May 8, 2019.

?

Would you rather have George than Disney?

  1. Yes, George IS Star Wars.

    48.4%
  2. No, Disney has done just fine without him.

    51.6%
  1. Trevor

    Trevor Rebellion Arms Supplier
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    Hello all;

    As we're approaching the supposed end of the Skywalker era in December, I've spent some time reflecting on the last 42 years of Star Wars.

    In the beginning, as I was there, George Lucas seemed to be something of a god in the world of Sci-Fi/Fantasy movie making and story-telling through the course of the OT...and he was the indisputable king of his genre, and at that time, anyone arguing it might've been beaten with a rubber hose by a mob of Star Wars t-shirt wearing fans...but some will say that "then the dark times came"....the Prequel Trilogy.

    I personally never had an issue with the PT, and even despite some of the seemingly wooden acting, clunky lines, and even the healthy doses of CGI...I was still good with it...but some weren't, and those that weren't, were calling for Georges head on a platter...and it still baffles me to this day that such a seemingly ugly side of the fandom had emerged from the shadows.

    All that I know, is that I got Anakin's story which GL had alluded to for so many years, and I got to see real Jedi...lot's of them that I had read about in books...I got to see a different time in the GFFA, but some were bitter about it...not unlike something that we're seeing today, and I'm still baffled by it.

    George Lucas gave the world an ongoing story about something we'd never had in this form..something wonderful, and as a reward, he was criticized heavily, and I've oftentimes thought that if that had never happened that he might have kept going...and might still be doing so today, and at the same time I imagine that when he handed off this story to Disney, that he could have thought:

    "There, now it's your problem...THEY'RE now your problem."...and sighed a breath of relief.

    I personally wouldn't have blamed him if he did feel that way, and am sorry if that's the way that it was.

    Forward to the ST;

    When Disney announced that they were going to revive the saga, fans everywhere lost their minds...were beside themselves, because Star Wars lived...it was coming back, and the world was suddenly a better place for SW fans.

    I remember that when it was mentioned that Disney/LFL had shelved GL's story treatments for the ST, people were a bit incensed by that notion as if to say "How DARE you do that to George, HE is Star Wars!!" right after they blamed him for ruining their childhoods...it was a bit weird

    Roaming these halls, I see the same type of attitudes and behavior toward the ST as I did by certain factions about the PT, only now the bitterness is directed at people like KK, RJ, and JJ, because there was something about a movie or the story line that people disliked...eerily reminiscent of the PT days.

    In the end I'll take what I can get, but will always rank the saga trilogies in the order that we got them...OT, PT, and ST..

    ...but do you know what??

    I'd rather that George was here...even if he was just at the head of it all and not even directing or writing, but just to say "Yes, you can do that.", or "No, it doesn't work that way." I don't (and WON'T) bemoan the Disney era because I still get star Wars...

    I just wish that George was still in the big chair with all of the story and ideas.

    I suspect that It certainly would've been different...
     
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  2. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    I personally wasn't bothered by the PT. I was one of the few brave OG souls that defended them back in the day. I honestly wish George would of partnered with Disney instead of out right selling to them (I don't blame him). I'm not saying George had to direct all of the movies, but have him stay on board as the writer and creativeness behind SW or a consultant for the lack of words. I just wish they worked with George a lot more on the ST rather than loosely using his ideas. Then after Episode 9, have George and Disney go on their separate ways. If the version of Luke that we gotten in TLJ was confirmed and directly came for George, I think people would of swallowed that pill a little easier. I would love for George to come back and do one more SW movie. Then again, we're 30 years too late for a proper ST anyways. George missed that window by doing the PT instead.
     
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  3. Bluemilk

    Bluemilk I AM the Senate

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    No. And I'll tell you why. Not because of the prequels. But because the same way people are treating KK, Rian and hating on anything Disney does with SW. Is the same why and reason GL quit. He even said so. And I agree with him. You can't please everyone and make everyone happy.

    And some couldn't wait for George to go away. Then Disney made something soem didn't like and now they want George back.

    SW fans are a fickle bunch. That all being said, do I miss GL? Yes. But at the same time I'm glad he isn't much involved, because if he was people would still give him a hard time.
     
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  4. Lambergoon

    Lambergoon Rebel Commander

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    Well, the prequels were not nearly as good as the original trilogy. To me, by the time of the prequesls, it seemed like Lucas either was not getting constructive criticism or was not listening to any criticism. Jar Jar and some of the poop jokes come to mind, though I'd say Darth Maul was a pretty thin character. That said, with Lucas in charge, you got a relatviely consistent mythological word. And you got his imagination, which never waned. You didn't get Mary Poppins or Space Bombers or instant knowledge of the force or a bunch of easter eggs that may not be important. And you didn't get a plotline dependent on flashbacks, rebranded as "forcebacks". If Lucas had stayed on, I don't think Disney could have rushed him the way it did Abrams (who was, let's face it, trying to write some of The Force Awakens in post-production). And you would never have Lucas in Johnson's position: asked to back out a silly, derrivative mask, kill off a villain who never had much depth, and sort out who Rey's parents actually were (because that was still undecided). Maybe it was time for Lucas to pass the torch, but Disney has really rushed things. Between the two options presented, I have to choose Lucas. But those were not the only two options.
     
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  5. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    Amen. I think having George act as a show runner, so to speak, kind of the way he did with Empire (but maybe less so) would have been smart. I get that KK has done some fantastic work as a producer, but she wasn't working with a hack director either. She was working with Steven Spielberg. That's about as good as you can get. I think they really need someone who understands Star Wars. If not Dave Filoni then definitely George Lucas. The more I think about it the more I think they really need someone like that to oversee the creative side. Let KK run the money side.
     
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  6. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    Easy. Nope. George is to close and I feel still would feel he has something to prove. That is the biggest reason I think the PT were not what they could have been. If he had simply given up doing so much during the PT the execution would have been better.
     
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  7. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Attuned

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    Lucas got angry when he had to take out a loan to cover the long shoots Kershner and Kurtz were doing for Empire.

    Dude would be absolutely miserable.

    So, no. People still love the EU and he didn't have a role in it at all. Filoni is still around. Lucas chose Kennedy and still blesses the shooting sets with his presence once in awhile and giving limited words of advice. If he really wants a role, he'll have to compromise on final edits and such. He'll either do that, or he'll be miserable getting any more involved.
     
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  8. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    George Lucas should have been a consultant for LF and its directors. Lucas' biggest strength was telling a deep story with heroes and villains, but his weaknesses were the dialogs and directing.

    Let George Lucas write an outline and other creative minds work with it. This would have been kinda similar to Dragonball and Akira Toriyama. Toriyama wrote a rough outline for the overall story (plot points etc) and his editors (and later the anime) created the full story.
     
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  9. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    It blows my mind this fact is often lost on people.

    And personally, no I don't need or really want George back. It's clear it took a toll on the man and his happiness and sanity isn't worth a portion of fans liking a movie more to risk either of those.
     
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  10. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    Dave Filoni is spiritual successor to Lucas Star Wars.
     
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  11. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    i voted no, but it's a bit irrelevant from my point of view.

    I don't want to be hung up about who writes or makes Star Wars like so many others seem to.

    George didn't make Star Wars movies for the fans.. he had a story to tell, and he told it exactly how he wanted to. If he had wanted to continue telling that story then i'm sure he would have done.
     
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  12. NinjaRen

    NinjaRen Supreme Leader

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    Maybe we should though. The people who write/make the movies are responsible for the quality we get. So, it's just reasonable to wish for good writers, directors etc.

    He stop making SW movies because he couldn't bear the hate by the fans anymore:

    “You go to make a movie and all you do is get criticised, and people try to make decisions about what you’re going to do before you do it, and it’s not much fun. You can’t experiment. You have to do it a certain way. I don’t like that, I never did. I started out in experimental films and I want to go back to experimental films.”
    - George Lucas
     
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  13. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    I wouldn't say no to him writing or directing a stand alone movie, but as @NinjaRen said. Disney is a company that would and can handle the negative feedback as opposed to just one person.
     
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  14. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    well, all we can do is guess about that.

    GL certainly didn't appreciate the negative feedback about the PT, but that isn't necessarily why he decided not to make any more.
    I think that if he wanted to continue the saga himself.. he would have done it regardless of what parts of the fanbase had said, and he would have done it his way.

    i honestly don't know mate. as i said.. it's all guess work from our side. He's a special.. but complicated man lol.
     
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  15. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Force Sensitive

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    To add to my previous comments. I really do enjoy the PT. The story of the PT is awesome and George should be applauded for it. If he had just relinquished a little control though they would be so much better. If he had ran the whole thing and hired people to write the better dialogue, particularly the love story dialogue between Anakin and Padme. I even think maybe done the same thing he did with the OT. Direct the 1st and then oversea the rest.

    I really feel he couldnt because of his animosity/resentment of the Hollywood establishment he grew up with. He wanted to show them, even if I am not sure the them doesnt exist any longer.
     
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  16. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    No.

    Now, in saying that, the most ideal for me would be the following:
    Lucas as lead story writer and lead designer.
    Kasdan as lead writer.
    Abrams as the director.
    Kennedy as the lead producer.

    That would have been my dream team, and I nearly got that in TFA with three out of four, so I'm really quite happy.

    However, there's two reasons that I don't want Lucas around.
    1) Lucas really doesn't care how things will be received by an audience
    ...and he never has. He hopes people will enjoy the films, but he's been very open over his career that he makes what he wants; full stop. And the issue here is that what he wants, while very fascinating in an art nouveau manner, are generally not widely palatable to a wide audience. It usually takes other people arguing with Lucas, frustrating him, to get something that meets half-way between what Lucas is thinking and what works on a wider scale. That's what happened in the OT, and that's what happened with every Indiana Jones film (except Doom).

    For example, aside from the widely known Kasdan and Lucas rows, Spielberg has spoken about their friendly disagreements on Indiana Jones and how that challenged Lucas to figure something out that would be more accepted by Spielberg...for instance, Lucas wanted IJ4, originally, to be about Indiana Jones in a sci-fi romp facing off against flying saucers with a title, "Indiana Jones and the Saucer". Spielberg flat out said, "No. There's too many alien films", and just couldn't see how that would work for Indiana Jones. So Lucas kept poking it around until he came up with multi-dimensional aliens and tying it into the crystal skulls mythology and redirected it back to the Indiana Jones historical angle - which was originally not going to be present in his first idea. Spielberg also admits that he didn't think Temple of Doom was quite right, but didn't feel like arguing about much of anything at the time, so he just let it go wherever Lucas wanted without commenting much; something he didn't repeat again. Now, Spielberg loves Lucas very personally, so he's very nice about the whole matter (and rightly so), but the point stands that Lucas is at his best when he has someone there to challenge him to think more about what he's wanting and not to just jump the gun with his first hunch.

    The Prequels are more Lucas without any challenges, and that's what he needed at that point in his life. He wanted to finally get a film out that was just what he wanted and only what he wanted; no exceptions. And that makes sense because he hadn't ever really gotten that. Every film up to that point had one of the following frustrations:
    • A) Tampered with by a production company (THX and American Graffiti both had this happen).
    • B) Someone purposefully circumvented his intentions in ways that removed the ability to do what he had wanted (ESB).
    • C) He had to argue with people about what he wanted and compromise (ESB, ROTJ, all Indiana Jones films but Temple of Doom).
    • D) He had to alter what he wanted because of budget or technical limitations. (ANH, EBS, ROTJ, Raiders, and somewhat Crusade).
    • E) He wasn't the director, so even though mostly everything went the way he wanted, how it looked didn't go the way he would have done it (Temple of Doom is a great example of this).
    So, in his mind (and he's quite right), he had never really made his film, and he really needed to do it as an artist before he lost his chance and would sit around forever wondering what might have been.

    So even though Lucas is the first to admit that his dialogue is very wooden, he wrote the scripts by himself anyway for the above reason.

    Temple of Doom was the closest he had gotten to getting exactly what he had wanted before the prequels, and he wasn't directing or writing the script, so it was only at the 90% mark for that ultimate goal.

    And the prequels being what Lucas fully wanting leads into reason number 2, which is a result of reason number one: that Lucas doesn't care what works for an audience.

    2) Lucas' ideas for the ST were...not good.
    This second reason is a direct result of the first. It's what we now know Lucas was interested in for the ST, and I can't say that I would have favored the story; honestly.
    Lucas was going to kick off with a sort of TLJ as the 7th film, but a very different TLJ. The similarities were that Luke was hiding out as a cranky disillusioned hermit that the new wanting-to-be-Jedi-in-training female would have to drag back into action. That's about where the similarities stop.
    Lucas had wanted to make the ST about the Whills.
    On first glance, many EU fans would likely be rather pleased about this, but when you look into what that meant in Lucas' mind...I doubt a lot of folks would have been terribly keen on the ideas he was interested in exploring.

    “[The next three Star Wars films] were going to get into a microbiotic world. But there’s this world of creatures that operate differently than we do. I call them the Whills. And the Whills are the ones who actually control the universe. They feed off the Force.
    Ultimately what this means is we were just cars, vehicles for the Whills to travel around in….We’re vessels for them. And the conduit is the midichlorians. The midichlorians are the ones that communicate with the Whills. The Whills, in a general sense, they are the Force… All the way back to—with the Force and the Jedi and everything." - Lucas​

    To Lucas, the Whills are a divine collective who control the fate of the universe, and Force users are vehicles that the Whills drive. Lucas actually refers to Force users as "just cars", and the keys to those cars are the midichlorians.

    Think about that for a moment.
    That, by logical derivation, means that if you tell that story, you in essence just sweepingly imply that everything Luke and Anakin did wasn't a result of their own will power because they were "just cars" and what they were doing was the will of the Whills for the end result of interest to the Whills for the fate of the universe.

    All of the moral dilemma was just a trick, a fool, to push and pull them both to do what the Whills ultimately wanted.
    And that was very much of interest to make that kind of statement to Lucas; that, as he puts it, "we aren't the boss".

    And I know this would have been articulated in a nuanced way that would have been very poetic, in a very cleverly designed chiastic narrative, and been a very beautiful philosophy of science narrative arc that entirely changes the understanding of all previous films by introducing an entirely different layer to the metanarrative of the series, but I really don't think I would have enjoyed that tangent - regardless how much it means to Lucas personally.

    I don't like the idea of jeopardizing the philosophical integrity of Force user's free will, and the moral debt they accrue by using that free will.
    It turns everything into a deterministic philosophy, and that makes individual struggles, sufferings, and triumphs immediately less valuable.
    At the very best, it means they are about as valuable as a pet dog's sufferings and triumphs - still validly owned, but of a confined capability and lessened.
    At worst, it's about as valuable as a nascar vehicle's failure's and successes - which is...virtually none, because the recognition goes to the driver and engineers.

    Part of what makes the Star Wars mythology so good to me is the allegorical moral ownership that it has. There is, to date, only one character who has ever walked away from making an immoral choice in a film and not suffered the consequences in the same film where they made those choices.
    DJ.
    He is the only character to walk out without any consequence happening to them for their immoral choice, and because Star Wars hadn't ever had that happen, it made the event of DJ doing so and walking off without a single consequence very poignant to his world view and the point he was driving into the film's allegorical message.

    If everything's just the Whills driving people around (not just Force users, because midichlorians exist in all life), then that kind of moment means DRASTICALLY less than it does currently.

    The same goes for Vader's decision to save Luke and to turn against the Emperor. That epic and highly emotional moment suddenly becomes quite a bit less remarkable if we suddenly have a storyline that holds that the Whills were driving both Vader and Luke in that moment.

    -----

    So...yeah. I'm actually happy, given all things considered, that Lucas isn't involved.
    I would have rather he would be, just because he's brilliant at world and story design, but that would also mean that I would ideally rather him have a DIFFERENT idea than this Whills tangent that he was looking to run on.

    And I strongly doubt, further, that Lucas would have hired Kasdan; considering that he didn't really enjoy the constant debating with Kasdan in the OT experiences.
    Lucas clearly thinks Kasdan is a great writer, but never-the-less, Lucas picked Arndt; not Kasdan, and I would much rather have Kasdan involved than Arndt.

    So. No. I'm quite happy with what I've got, and I honestly feel that Lucas would have screwed things up.
    He does too. Lucas has commented that originally he was thinking of sticking around, but he quickly began to realize that he was just getting in the way and that if he stuck around, he would cause more harm than good because...well...Lucas isn't really good at not having his way, and that's what would be happening a LOT. He would have been a consultant, and that means he can say things, but they would just be ideas - take them or leave them; no obligation. That's NOT where Lucas does well. It drives him up the wall, and he knows that. So he did the right thing and walked away.

    So that's my reasoning.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #16 Jayson, May 9, 2019
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
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  17. RoyleRancor

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  18. Lock_S_Foils

    Lock_S_Foils Red Leader

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    Yes!! yes!!!! What @Jayson said!!! Rereading the making of SW right now and all the traits of Lucas you describe are covered!!!
     
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  19. Apollus08

    Apollus08 Rebelscum

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    George gave us, the creators, the tools to go out and try to surpass him. Master and apprentice :)

    I'm still optimistic we will see a SW someday that surpasses the originals.
    --- Double Post Merged, May 10, 2019, Original Post Date: May 10, 2019 ---
    ... but I would love to see him do ONE more movie
     
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  20. Messi

    Messi G.O.A.T.

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    Would you rather have George back??

    My answer is: No.

    This Sequel trilogy proves that to me: Great characters and that SW feeling that was missed with the PT.
     
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