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Your ideas for IX's plot.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Sparafucile, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Official

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    This is also my problem with how Snoke was handled. It is implied that Snoke hates Luke and the Jedi. Why? Maybe because they are a threat to Snoke's authority, for his will to dominate the galaxy? Snoke is not a Sith, we were told. So, he is just an extremely powerful Dark side user. Sure, we can use our imagination, but this hatred seems personal, at least that was the way it felt to me, so it begs for more background info to be revealed. Also, if Snoke believes that darkness rises and light will (always) meet it, it seems he is destined to forever fight the light in one shape or another. So, what was his long-term strategy? :)

    Snoke is/was an interesting character. I genuinely believe many people who are upset about the way he was handled are so because they wanted to know more about him. Sure, you can have novels or other materials. However, his role is so central in the ST that to fully enjoy the movie I believe that a bit more should have been revealed. The ST isn't finished yet however, so maybe we'll get more bits of info about him, and that may be sufficient to fulfill our wish to know more. After all, Snoke is JJ's and Kasdan's invention, so perhaps JJ will give us more in IX.
     
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  2. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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  3. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Official

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    Thanks for the video. I've watched TLJ five times already, but let's look at Snoke's line about Luke then:
    So, Snoke hates Luke and the Jedi Order because they are a symbol of hope for the galaxy. We have only moved the "why" to another location. So, why does he want to estinguish hope in the galaxy? Because, he's a villain and we must assume he wants to dominate the entire galaxy, and Luke, and the Jedi Order and Hope are the most important obstacle to that. Because, again, we must assume that only Luke and the Jedi Order had the power or authority to mobilize the galaxy against him/the FO? In TFA I got the impression that Snoke and Kylo thought the whereabouts of Luke were more important than the destruction of the New Republic.

    The Rebellion in Solo, Rogue One and New Hope were based on hope, of the free people who wanted to fight oppression. Why do we have to assume that a new Rebellion would only work if at least one Jedi was alive? Leia did say: "We've got everything we need", to Rey, the "New Jedi". So, this is what we should assume then, that the galaxy can never hope to fight oppression if no Jedi is alive. That you absolutely need a Jedi to fight evil. If that is the case then I do not know what to think of that.
     
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  4. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    We don't need to know more about Snoke. You just want to.
    Why was the Emperor there? Who was he? Why did he have so much power over Vader?

    You are hinging your argument on "He has a name"?

    The context on Snoke is: He was in charge. He manipulated Kylo. He manipulated Kylo one too many times. He died.
    That's all you need to know for his place in this story.
     
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  5. oldbert

    oldbert Guardian of Coffee Breaks

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    ..and they live happily ever after on their refuge on AchToo with their 13 kids, forcing the keepers to rethink their purpose in live and looking for another lonely island, nursing porks instead of force sensitive children going nuts :D
     
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  6. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    exactly! except the agreement with Rey and Ben being a couple and having offspring was that none of them are Force-sensitive! hahahaha
     
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  7. Cunir

    Cunir Rebelscum

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    I wonder if it was Luke bridging their minds?

    Maybe Luke has been trying to bring the two skywalker-family kids together all along. Luke feels like he failed Kylo and wants to save him, but he knows that Kylo will never listen to him now so he's using his sister or half-sister or cousin or whatever she is to do it instead.

    He couldn't just send her out to him straight away because she was too green, so the first movie was all about finding her (has parallels with them finding Luke in Ep.4), second one was about training her up (same as Luke was trained up in Ep.5), and the third one will be about her redeeming Kylo (just like Luke redeemed Vadar in Ep.6)
     
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  8. Plagueis 1138

    Plagueis 1138 Rebelscum

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    The emperor comparison is not valid. We didn’t need to know about the Emperor because we had enough information about the story and the situation. We also learned that the Emperor wanted Luke to take Vader’s place and be his servant.


    You are now telling a story that takes place after the events of the OT. Snoke without a distinct motivation other than he’s evil just shows they’re lazily recycling the same storylines from previous star wars movies.
    --- Double Post Merged, Oct 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Oct 4, 2018 ---
    The emperor comparison is not valid. We didn’t need to know about the Emperor because we had enough information about the story and the situation. We also learned that the Emperor wanted Luke to take Vader’s place and be his servant.


    You are now telling a story that takes place after the events of the OT. Snoke without a distinct motivation other than he’s evil just shows they’re lazily recycling the same storylines from previous star wars movies.
     
  9. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    You don't need to know about Snoke's motivation either.
    There's nothing lazy about the progression of the story. He's a plot device. It's a trope. It happens. It isn't Snoke's story. Snoke wants to rule the galaxy. With the Jedi around he knows that isn't possible. He is a manipulator. He is ancient. He is a bit extravagant/flamboyant. He loves to show off his power/intellect.
    This is more than enough to differentiate from the Emperor, who we knew NONE of this sort of thing about. He's clearly different than the Emperor in many was despite serving a similar, yet inverted, purpose. The Emperor ended up pushing Vader back to Anakin and to redemption....Snoke pushed Kylo further into darkness.

    By the logic of saying this makes it a lazy recycling, it makes Anakin a lazy recycle and Rey a lazy recycle. And Poe a lazy recycle. And Luke a lazy recycle. Hell, it makes Star Wars a lazy recycle of older myths and films.

    Point being, Snoke is a plot device to move Kylo Ren's character. He isn't the focus of the story. That is for a different day. The landing on Normandy Beach is a great story but you won't learn much about it reading a book on Stalingrad.
     
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  10. Jase Windu

    Jase Windu Rebel Official

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    I cannot force myself to devote the energy to address all the issues and plot points I think would draw this to any kind of reasonable conclusion (why I am in the minority that thinks this movie needs two parts) but I will throw some softballs out here by character

    Time Jump--of no less than 2 years but I'm hoping for closer to 5


    R2D2/C3PO--largely glossed over in this trilogy will have limited screen time but I think likely R2 will have a major hero moment working in conjunction with BB8

    Poe-Will ascend to Resistance commander will have some great one liners and hopefully have a memorable scene or convo with the great....

    Lando!-- Will pick up where Leia left off will work as a rainmaker and General Emeritus for the Resistance

    Leia---I really don't have a clue how they will incorporate it made sense to address her passing in a time jump but that does not seem to be the plan so I have no idea

    Hux--all rumors point to him trying to undermine Kylo and sneaking and slithering around and maybe he gets force choked for some reason and dies at the end in an explosion

    Knights of Ren--I think they will provide some really important action and kick some butt and have few if any lines but make way more of an impact as villains (action wise) than Captain Phasma did

    Kylo--Supreme Commander deluxe I think that since this trilogy has shown an inverse hero's journey for a Skywalker offspring that will continue. I think he will get a shot at redemption and double down on the darkside and ultimately die as a bad guy

    Yoda---I think we will see or hear him

    Luke--will be a crabby force ghost possibly he and Yoda may appear together

    Obi-wan--I believe will show up in some way

    Anakin/Vader--I really like the idea of the haunting or tug of war between those two in Kylos's psyche I REALLY hope that happens

    Maz- will have more screentime and provide guidance to the new big 3 in some way

    Rose--I think will be a go to tech person head engineer for the resistance by this time. I think they will float some awkwardness love triangle angle with Rey and Finn and ultimately nothing will come of it.

    Finn--I have lots of feelings about the wasted story use on what was initially such an interesting character. If I had to guess at this point I would hope they reveal he is a kidnapped Mandalorian. Its lazy writing (and Finn has suffered mightily from that as a character) but it would make sense. Maz looked at him and saw a warrior. Guess what he was a warrior all along born and stolen from a warrior race it was always his destiny he just had to choose the right side...yadda yadda etc. Plus with all the Mandalorians in the prequels, the clone wars, Star Wars Rebels, and the now coming live action show shouldn't a Mandalorian somehow feature prominently into the main saga? Him and Rey will have some fun fighting together and saving the galaxy. He and Rose will decide they are just friends and...he won't die? That's all I got. I also would like a stormtrooper rebellion but I would be surprised if they fit that in.

    REY-what this thing is all about. I think we will find Kylo told the truth (from a certain point of view) he considers her parents nobodies, but we will find out they are somebody sort of. I don't have a guess who but I think they will walk Rey back into being related to some legacy character we know of even if its not a parent. She will be super strong in the force, she will try to balance saving Kylo with what her friends (Poe and Finn believe about him) She will not succeed in redeeming him because he is to pigheaded to be redeemed. She will kill him and will get assistance with the Knights of Ren. The First Order will crumble and a New Order of Force Users will rise (I say Force Users because I am not sure it will be strictly a Jedi Order).
     
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  11. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    That would be fine if there was not an established story. This is supposed to be the continuation of a story and not something new and unknown. Fans want to know the history that unfolded between TLJ and ROTJ.

    Perhaps they did this to set up a ST prequel where all that history is explored. I find that unsatisfactory.

    If the ST had been the first ever SW Trillogy then it would not be burdened with Fan expectations and desire to know the prehistory of the characters.

    At least the PT built upon established story. The ST does not feel like SW 7,8,9. Perhaps it should be SW 13,14, 15.
     
  12. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    It contains new and unknown pieces.
    You can't make the argument "it's a repeat of the last thing" and "it's not something new and unknown"

    No, people on here want to know what happened between ROTJ and TFA.
    The general movie going audience could give two shits.
     
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  13. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    I agree with your first 2 lines, but the last two I think is open to debate.

    I think people who have issue with Luke's depiction would like to know more of some happenings between RotJ and TFA, as well as those with issues with Snoke. A lot of the general going audience are still very familiar with Luke, you don't have to be a SW fan to understand the words "Use the force Luke." or "Luke (supposed to be No), I am your father." ect... SW is iconic, almost everyone in North America has heard and gets the general idea of many of its references, at the very least.
     
  14. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I think those people are also the people on here.
    Maybe a few scattered about but they also wouldn't want to see 60 year old Mark Hamill playing 30 year old Luke.
    The time for those stories on film, was before the PT trilogy. George chose otherwise. Now those stories are relegated to cartoons, TV shows and other media. But the film days are long gone for those. It will be a long while before that happens.
     
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  15. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    Maybe I'm in the minority of the "didn't like how Luke was depicted in TLJ" group, (getting numbers on opinions is really hard for TLJ), but I wanted more younger Luke showing the wisdom he'd earned at the end of RotJ, when he tossed away his lightsaber. I'd also like to see the dynamic between he, Ben and how Snoke and Ben's parents fit in. At the same time, I wouldn't mind to know how they (Snoke and Ben) were aware (or seemed to be) of Rey in TFA.

    Snoke ties in to Luke's failure with Ben, and we didn't get any explanation as to how that is. In that sense, Snoke could have used a little more backstory. We got 3 separate flashbacks, but they all centered on Ben and Luke without a hint of Snoke in all 3 different versions. We know he was involved by Leia's mention of him. There's some parts to the story that make it difficult for fans like me to follow the logic. In the end, it all centers around Ben and his wanting to be evil, so the backstory is not merely to explain Snoke and Luke, but to get a deeper feel on the story regarding Ben's fall to Kylo.

    I'm not arguing that it can't be enough for some people, and maybe there's more to be unveiled in IX, but at this point I would think those crumbs in IX may almost be necessary to the story. I know at the very least, it is for me.
     
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  16. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Official

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    The problem is, this doesn't seem to do it, at least for me. Why is it not possible to rule the galaxy with a single Jedi individual around? Palpatine ruled for many years with Jedi around. All things being equal, if Snoke was no different from the Emperor (and the Emperor was a Sith, mortal enemy of the Jedi), centering all your thoughts to the point of obsession on a single Jedi individual, who saw his new Jedi Order burn to the ground and was never heard since, seems illogical. Why? For the same reason Palpatine did not do a thorough Jedi hunt after order 66 was considered a success, where Jedi Master Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi could remain hidden in exile for many years without perturbation, to as far as the PT and OT are concerned. Why? Because Palpatine did not see / did not believe them to be a threat anymore. And they weren't, although they had hope Luke could turn the tide, and with their help he did it, to everyone's rejoice. Had Luke walked away, they would have tried with Leia, because they were Vader's children, and therefore a viable threat to him. Not here.

    So, this leads us back to the question: "Why does Snoke hate, or fear, Luke so much?". Why the blind obsession? Was Snoke so fearful of the thought of a single Jedi being alive to consider him a direct threat to him? If that's so, then this is why we need to know more about him. Why was Palpatine Ok with a handful of top Jedi individuals being alive, but Snoke can't handle the thought of just one Jedi being alive, again, one who saw his Jedi order recently destroyed by Kylo Ren, his apprentice? There's more here that I think could use some explanation. Otherwise, the obsessive need to kill the last Jedi feels forced. Was it because Snoke had a cult around Vader? Is this linked to the Knights of Ren somehow? Is Snoke a Sith? If not, then who is he? Who are his people?

    In short, Snoke's background and motivations feel insufficient and forced to me, and to many others as you can see (heck, this is one of the top issues people have with TLJ). This is not about haters vs lovers or film knowers vs casual movie goers. It just doesn't feel right to many people. I'm mixed about TLJ, by the way. I consider it a movie full of great moments and some weak parts as well. The two main things I don't like about TLJ are: - the way Luke was handled, and, obviously by this post, the lack of background and motivations about Snoke and his premature death.
     
    #56 greenbalrog, Oct 5, 2018
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  17. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Because we saw a single Jedi destroy the Empire.
     
  18. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Official

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    Not because he was a Jedi, there were hundreds of Jedi in the past, but because he was a Jedi who had special help in very particular circunstances, being him the son of Anakin, he had the key and could turn his father, and he did.

    "He will come to me?" - Vader. "Yes, I have foreseen it. His compassion for you will be his undoing. He will come to you and then you will bring him before me." -Palpatine. "As you wish" -Vader.

    So, in the OT's context, Luke was a special Jedi, which Vader and the Emperor had all the reason to be obssessed about, and they were, especially Vader in Empire Strikes Back. He wanted to find and turn Luke using their special father-son relationship. We never knew what could happen if Luke had accepted the offer (of course he would never have accepted it, but Vader did not know Luke's character at that point).

    Without further backstory, Snoke's fear and obsession with he Jedi in general, and Luke in particular, seems out of place, or at least is not fully understood. And as @Sparafucile said, "Snoke ties in to Luke's failure with Ben, and we didn't get any explanation as to how that is. In that sense, Snoke could have used a little more backstory". I agree. We don't know the true reason for these things yet but that does not mean we don't have more bits of information in IX.
     
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  19. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    He brought down the Empire by virtue. His being Anakin's son wasn't a factor until later. Take Episode 4 by itself. The sole future Jedi is able to stop the evil Lord Darth Vader and destroy their technological terror Death Star by use of the force....and he'd been using it for a week!
    Yes it extrapolates from there to him being the son of Vader, turning him and ultimately destroying the empire. But Episode 4 sets the table for a single "Jedi" being a serious issue. Since then it has been a part of Star Wars lore to show how powerful and feared a single Jedi can be.
     
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  20. greenbalrog

    greenbalrog Rebel Official

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    Luke did not defeat the Death Star alone, but I see your point. The Skywalkers are indeeded the most powerful Jedi, probably ever. Anakin, Luke, and now Ben. Still, Snoke's fear and obsessiveness seems disproportionate. He and Kylo pass good part of TFA and TLJ obssessed with Luke, even after destroying their Jedi Order and the fact Luke, a Human, is becoming old. Even if we can accept he thinks Luke is his biggest adversary, the single biggest obstacle to his rulling, we still don't know much about Snoke. Probably a bit more will be disclosed in IX.
     
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