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Can the Magic of Star Wars be Recaptured?

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by Pobody's Nerfect, Jun 22, 2018.

  1. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    I hear this a lot from those fans who love the ST, that SW fans wanted Luke to be the hero, when it was always supposed to be Rey.

    I wanted Luke to be a hero, much like Gandalf in LOTR is a hero, but he doesn't detract from Frodo or Aragorn. Make Rey Aragorn, make Finn and Poe Sam and Frodo. There is room in a movie to have multiple heroes. Actually, Luke would have fit perfectly as a Gandalf, as he pretty much embodies the old grizzled wizard, albeit in space. I'm not going to speak for everyone and say everyone would have been fine with this, but I do think those who wanted Luke to be the center of the ST are far and large a minute minority.

    To me, what the prequels did differently, was it added that the Force had a will, and by extension a consciousness (by the virgin birth of Anakin, thus choosing Shmi, and making Anakin a Chosen One). We never got that in the OT. We got light and dark, but nothing beyond that. There was never any mention of Anakin or Vader being a Chosen One. I interpreted the Force more as a force of nature, something you can come attuned with. Something that you can learn how to manipulate, control and find different applications for. Ever expanding magic, but still within a set of its own weird physics, thus limitations and quantifiable to some extent.

    I was hoping the ST would have shown the Force's seeming consciousness as Jedi interpretation. Jedi can see the future, so someone saw Anakin's future and interpreted it as the Force's will, made it into prophecy, but all along, it was only chance interpreted by Jedi religion that felt a need to anthropomorphize a power they didn't understand. In a way, a self fulfilling prophecy by the Jedi's own doctrine and understanding of the Force. Instead, the ST double downed on the PT's introduction of the Force's will (choosing Rey) and consciousness. It wasn't wrong, but instead went in the opposite direction I hoped it would go. It built upon the PT's interpretation, and the Jedi's institution, doctrine and belief.

    I think if you're a fan of everything PT, it would be easier to accept the ST, at least on some levels. The ST double downed on the whole of SW (all six episodes), while many fans of the OT chose to ignore aspects of the PT, which made the ST more of a shock. Now we've come face to face with having to confront things we didn't like about the PT and having to accept both the PT's interpretation of the Force while at the same time, realizing that our OT SW hasn't existed in nearly 40 years (other than our head canon). Then there's all the other "issues" Luke's characterization ect, ect, ect ad nauseam.
     
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  2. Cunir

    Cunir Rebel Trooper

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    One thing that modern movies can’t recapture from the ones you watched as a kid is all the side-stuff that happened around them. The one I remember the most was when ET came out, and I had some glow in the dark stickers of ET and his bike ride across the moon all over my bedroom door. I think they came out of a cereal box. And I collected the panini-like sticker book as well with scenes from the movie. And of course we had all the marvel Star Wars comics.

    It felt like the movie lasted for a couple of months when you collected all of that stuff as well. You looked forward to getting through all the cereal so your mum would buy another box, and you’d get your comics from the shop every week. It was a bigger chunk of your life.

    We don’t do all of that stuff with the new movies. We might talk it about on here during the build-up and then go and watch it, but then it’s all over.
     
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  3. Kestrel

    Kestrel Rebel Trooper

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    The only magic I get out the OT is John William's score.
     
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  4. Lando's Closet

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    Honestly, I pretty much 'disowned' the whole notion that the Force had a will in the Prequels because I didn't believe in the whole immaculate conception of Anakin, as if he were some type of savior figure or something. I either thought that Shmi didn't know all of the facts or that she wasn't telling the truth. When Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan have their discussion in Episode II and Yoda says "A prophecy misread could have been..", then that further undermines the whole 'chosen one' concept; they simply don't know what The Force has in store for Anakin later on in life.

    I was actually fine with Rey coming from humble roots in the Sequel Trilogy, or with no connection to a previous force user. It is easier for me to accept this (that Rey was a nobody before The Force) then trying to accept that Anakin was somehow immaculately conceived by The Force. But I completely agree with you that Luke could have been one of the heroes, like Gandalf and Aragorn in The Lord Of The Rings, instead of being kind of an 'anti-hero' or a reluctant hero/mentor at best. We've been waiting 34 years for something cannonical about Luke after ROTJ and this is what we get (TLJ)?? Honestly, if Luke were just done a whole lot differently, then I would have been able to accept The Last Jedi. Unfortunately, I just cannot accept that movie as it is currently.
     
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  5. Rellum

    Rellum Rebelscum

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    I truely hate where they have taken the force in the ST. I always saw the force as a an energy connecting things that some could tap into and wield. Now it is some sort of active deity, handing out force powers and controlling actions even. It is like they have changed pantheism to Christianity.
     
    #25 Rellum, Jul 3, 2018
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  6. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    No, George Lucas did that in 1999 when he decided to make Anakin Skywalker a LITERAL Jesus character. Virgin birth destined to save us.
    The force has always been able to guide and control actions.
    Luke shooting down the Death Star was because he let the force take over instead of his computer. He pulled the trigger but he "used the force" to do it.
    Luke's telepathy with Leia is a rando force power. So was his telekinesis on Hoth to escape the Wampa.
     
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  7. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Yeah, I much prefer the OT and ST idea of the Force as a sort of living thing. It could be harnessed, sure, but it also has its own will.

    The PT treat it like an excuse to have superheroes.
     
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  8. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    Agreed. It's why I honestly dont want a movie set in a time with a TON of Jedi.

    And I don't think you can recapture the magic of the OT because the toothpaste is already out of the tube and you can't just shove it back in.
    The magic is there for my cousin's who are 12 and 10. They feel about this one the way I felt about the OT.
    But for me, that magic can't be recaptured.

    The same way, while I adore them for what they are, the new Jurassic movies will never recapture the magic of the first one. It's impossible. You can never see a dinosaur for the first time again. That's the tragedy that follows movies like the OT and Jurassic Park among others.
     
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  9. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Force Sensitive

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    No.

    I've captured it a long time ago. I share it sometimes.

    Have you captured yours? Who has ripped it from your spirit, like Kylo did in murdering Han?

    Star Wars is still Star Wars.

    If you love something, sometimes it changes, but with whatever you loved is still there in your mind and who you are. It's up to you to embrace it (it's Luke's journey in TLJ).
     
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  10. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Sensitive

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    Me too and that has never changed. Nothing has changed with the new trilogy - and the ST shows us that there are those that can just tap into. It's what the 'broom boy' scene at the end is telling us.

    It's always been a thing where it can control actions. Ben Kenobi hints at it as Luke gets is his first taste of training:

    Ben: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
    Luke: You mean it controls your actions?
    Ben: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.​

    And haven't phrases like "The will of the Force" and "Let the Force guide you" appeared long before the ST? Even the phrase 'May the Force be with you' suggests a belief that it can guide and bring you success when you need it.

    But it's never been nothing more than just a power to only be tapped into and control. It's a far more symbiotic relationship and always has been.

    Regarding the deity thing - I don't think it's a god, and maybe this is just my own take on it more than anything, but I see the Force as perhaps having the collective consciousness of all those who have passed.

    (And I thought I'd posted this earlier, but I found it stuck here still waiting)
     
    #30 Too Bob Bit, Jul 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
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  11. dudebrohomie

    dudebrohomie Rebel General

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    I'm going to say 'no', but not because the new films aren't up to par. They are really fine films....all of them.

    For me though, I'd have to be 7 years old again and have no reference point. In other words, the fact that SW exists kind of ruins the 'magic' of SW if that makes sense. It's the same problem Jurassic Park has in that we've all seen dinosaurs now, AND the characters have all seen dinosaurs. It loses its surprise factor once we've all seen it.

    I still think the new films are swell, though.
     
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  12. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    This comment makes no sense to me. How does being a fan of the PT is supposed to make it easier for me to accept the ST? Please explain.
     
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  13. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    This comment sounds like a contradiction of Qui-Gon's description of the Force . . . in the PT.
     
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  14. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Force Sensitive

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    For me, TFA absolutely brought the magic back. I left the theater so high on Star Wars nostalgia, it stuck with me all December long.

    But I think this sense of the "magic" of Star Wars is also why the movies are so controversial. I think the "magic" is a really subjective thing. For some people, it was the OT. For others, it's the prequels. For others, it's KOTOR. But ultimately, it's like any other pleasure in life--you'll always want to chase after that initial high, and you'll probably never catch it. The only way to really enjoy new Star Wars movies is to accept that the magic will never entirely be back. You need to enjoy new films on their own terms. You need to open yourself up to a new magic. Because no film, no matter how well-made, will ever fully recapture the initial magic you felt with Star Wars. Even if it comes close, like TFA did for me.
     
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  15. Anubis78

    Anubis78 Jedi General

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    With the Hollywood machine pumping out 1000s of films a year versus a couple hundred back when SW came out. The magic changed and is not gone. So when we talk anything the stands the test of time SW, Jaws, What Dreams may Come and the Wizard of OZ we are bombarded by so many knock offs that it is hard to keep something new.

    We can love the OT because it takes us back to that lazy Saturday morning hanging out and watching something that was so unreal. Now we can VR. The magic isn't gone it had to change with the times, we have so much jumping out for us each and everyday that it cant be the same. We are comparing it to a completely different time. Some of remember when the President did his national speeches we were stuck all the dang channels gone. Now we have 500 channels. So when it comes the magic we are older, maybe a little wiser and we treat it different. We have changed but you sit a child down in front of anything new and it is still there. Trust me the magic space ninja and murder bears still lives. We just are looking at it through different eyes.
     
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  16. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Jedi General

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    yup
    I showed my cousin Jurassic Park for the first time when he was like 5 or 6, and all he wanted was to create a real Jurassic Park. He still has a deep interest in pursuing science 6 years later. The magic is definitely there. We just aren't 10 anymore. Our magic is our cell bill lowering or getting an energy efficient appliance lol.
     
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  17. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    Exactly what "magic" are you talking about? The "magic" of the OT? It's ironic, considering that it took me several years to appreciate that particular trilogy after it first came out. Do I want the "magic" of the OT to be repeated? No. In the words of F. Scott Fitzgerald, "you can't repeat the past". But you can move on and do something new, while paying homage to the past or forming a narrative connection to it.

    One of the reasons why I am such a big fan of the PT, "Rogue One" and "Solo" is that while having a connection to the OT from a narrative POV, those five films managed to offer something new. The PT depicted how the downfall of Anakin Skywalker, the Jedi and the Galactic Republic led to the emergence of the Galactic Empire and the Sith as a major power in the galaxy. And the trilogy did so with a good deal of ambiguity that I found more than satisfying. That ambiguity was also on display in "Rogue One", which told the story of the theft of the Death Star plans; and "Solo", which conveyed Han Solo's origins, and at the same time, gave audiences more than a peek into the criminal underworld of the Star Wars saga. Ironically, both stand alone movies featured protagonists who were not Force sensitive.

    The Prequel Trilogy was not perfect. Neither were "Rogue One", "Solo" . . . and the Original Trilogy. The two trilogies and the two stand alone films had their flaws. But for me, their virtues - in which originality is one of them - far outweighed their flaws. I cannot say the same about the first two Sequel Trilogy movies. I am willing to give it points (in terms of originality) for the following - none of the major protagonists is a white male; the main antagonist does not come from an obscure background and/or upbringing, like Anakin Skywalker aka Darth Vader and the main antagonist killed off his evil mentor halfway into the trilogy. Despite these bouts of originality, I'm just not that impressed. There are too many plot holes and inconsistent characterizations for me to regard the Sequel Trilogy as worthy entertainment. Worse, I thought the first two films of the Sequel Trilogy borrowed just a bit too much from the OT movies for me to regard it as truly original. In fact, I am beginning to wonder if the trilogy's narrative was ever outlined in advance.

    So, when people talk about recapturing the "magic" of the past . . . I find myself wondering what they want. Do they want a rehash of the Original Trilogy? If they're talking about the "spirit" of the first trilogy, I cannot help but wonder if that answer is riddled with pitfalls. It could easily be regarded in so many ways.

    I simply want a STAR WARS movie that not only connects to the movies that are currently part of the franchise, but also provide something truly original and well-written. It does not have to be perfect, because I do not expect it to be. None of the current films are. But I hope that the franchise's future movies will be a lot better than the first two Sequel Trilogy films.
     
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  18. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    See, I don't necessarily agree with this, since the underlying argument here is that a bulk of the magic associated with Star Wars for a lot of people is either nostalgia, or the initial wonder of experiencing it for the first time as a kid.

    I'm someone whose experience with Star Wars was changing constantly, because I was constantly exposing myself to new things within its universe: the OT, the PT, the 2003 Clone Wars series, the 2008 Clone Wars series, the comics, the novels, the dozens of games...all of which differ drastically in terms of tone, scope, style, storytelling, intent and quality. That's what kept Star Wars relevant to me and many others in the 10-year non-film drought between ROTS and TFA: constantly being exposed to new things, new concepts, and new ideas....the exact "new magic" you're referring to. It wasn't the recycling of nostalgia or repeated attempts to re-capture the old magic that made Star Wars a continuously-engaging experience: it was the on-going attempt to introduce new things, original and radically-creative worlds, characters and stories. It was fresh and exciting, and never ceased to be so.

    My issue with the ST is precisely that it's trying way, way too hard to re-capture the "old magic" of the previous films, when it never needed to. All it needed to do was continue pushing the boundaries of originality, and keep the creativity going. And look where we are: look how much of the ST is monkeying the old films. Look at how suffocatingly reference-heavy and bloated with OT regalia even spin-offs like Rogue One and Solo are. Look at how bogged down all the supplementary material is, with almost 99% of it taking place in the OT era, featuring OT characters, with OT ships and planets.

    I've been open to new, exciting experiences within the Star Wars universe, the "new magic" you refer to, for several years---and had those new experiences up till Disney bought the license. It's only when the new films and canon emerged that new experiences started to cease.

    And that's no fault of mine: I'm not the ones blinded by nostalgia and trying to re-capture old magic: Disney and Lucasfilm are, and rather poorly, in my opinion.
     
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  19. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Force Sensitive

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    That's fair. I was thinking mostly of people upset by all the unexpected turns in TLJ. But I would definitely agree that Lucasfilm is partly at fault for leaning on nostalgia and trying to recapture the "old magic" instead of forging something new.
     
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  20. Daft Ada

    Daft Ada Rebelscum

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    I don't believe that the magic of Star Wars can be recaptured. What we have now is filmmaking by committee. Art isn't made for an audience; it's made for the artist. George Lucas cleaved to his vision when he made his films. His independence was hard-won and he nearly had a nervous breakdown on at least one occasion. He had to tolerate the critics and other people in the business deriding him for making kids' films. Even the fans of his films grew to dislike him - whether it was because of his refusal to release the first three films in their original form or for the decisions he made when making the prequels. Despite all this, he saw his vision through to the end with little in the way of compromise.

    The films being made now that bear the Star Wars title are a shallow facsimile of what has gone before. Integrity has given way to imitation and we, as an audience, are poorer for it.
     
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