1. Due to the increased amount of spam bots on the forum, we are strengthening our defenses. You may experience a CAPTCHA challenge from time to time.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. Notification emails are working properly again. Please check your email spam folder and if you see any emails from the Cantina there, make sure to mark them as "Not Spam". This will help a lot to whitelist the emails and to stop them going to spam.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. IMPORTANT! To be able to create new threads and rate posts, you need to have at least 30 posts in The Cantina.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Before posting a new thread, check the list with similar threads that will appear when you start typing the thread's title.
    Dismiss Notice

EP IX Politics

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Sparafucile, Apr 3, 2018.

  1. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2015
    Posts:
    2,204
    Likes Received:
    9,247
    Trophy Points:
    87,867
    Credits:
    10,213
    Ratings:
    +10,692 / 26 / -10
    I think it's both a strength and a weakness. On one hand, you're right. We're not bogged down by boring and needlessly complicated politics. But on the other hand, we're in a different world and a different culture. To have the simple, fairytale Hero's Journey of the ANH and the OT as a whole isn't what we as fans or as a culture want.

    What we want is to feel the world the characters live in. We want to know about everything and why. We want worldbuilding. And politics is a part of that, like it or not.

    Yes, the PT did go overboard on that aspect, maybe explaining too much of the political side* but in the end I feel like it serviced the world of Star Wars far more than just the story it was trying to tell in the PT.

    But back to worldbuilding and politics, leaving the politics out of TFA was a good move, I won't deny that. Telling a familiar story helped us get to know the characters a lot more, and I'll forever be grateful for that. But in return, we have a Star Wars world that now fills...hollow. Like, if I put the spotlight on something outside of the movies, nothing will be there.

    And yes, you could point to the OT having 40 years to build that up and the PT having about 18 or so. But even back then, there where companion pieces to the movies (at least the PT) or stuff that made you feel like the world was larger than just the movies.

    I didn't feel sympathy outside of certain parts, but I did feel empathy. The PT was three stories in one: how Anakin became Darth Vader, how the Empire came to be, and how the Jedi failed.

    This triple focus let us see the world beyond Anakin's story, and enriched the scope.

    In contrast, the ST only has two: the rise and fall of the First Order and the Return of the Jedi (1983).

    As for the Rey point, I agree. But how much more weight would the destruction of Hosnian Prime had if we watched Kor Sella trying to get the New Republic to see the First Order as a threat? How much more complex would Kylo have been if we saw a scene with him arguing against the use of Starkiller Base? Both would have added no more than 15 minutes to the run-time.

    You're right, it doesn't always make a good film. But I do believe (as I've said far too many times already...sorry about that :p) it helps expand the scope and the worldbuilding.

    @Snazel I don't think you're entirely wrong, but I do think that we're in a different age. Star Wars has grown beyond it's simple neo-mythical roots in a lot of ways. But we also don't want a poorly disguised political story that's an allegory for current-day America (that's what Game of Thrones is for ;)).

    We want a story in a galaxy far, far away that we feel like we can not only go to and explore, but live in and know. We want characters that we feel like we know; that feel real and mirror us and the best of ourselves. We want to meet foreign cultures, planets, and aliens, and see how they live and what they believe and how it's different from what our heroes do - and a part of that is politics.

    tl;dr I think the PT might have leaned too heavily on in-world worldbuilding (which I am personally a fan of) while the ST doesn't have nearly enough. So yes more politics please.



    *I'd also like to say that I don't think I was ever really bored or confused as a kid watching the PT politics. The movies made it obvious that Palpatine was manipulating both sides, and seeing the duality of Queen Amidala in TPM was interesting.
     
  2. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Posts:
    3,944
    Likes Received:
    13,565
    Trophy Points:
    144,267
    Credits:
    13,363
    Ratings:
    +18,372 / 302 / -95
    Politics was a bigger part of the PT because it had to be. Anakin's fall was tied to the rise of Palpatine. The OT was a story about Luke and Vader. This is a story about Rey and Kylo. These people aren't major parts of the political structure. Kylo Ren is now, but the First Order isn't a democracy.
     
    • Wise Wise x 3
  3. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2018
    Posts:
    3,215
    Likes Received:
    80,288
    Trophy Points:
    169,917
    Credits:
    45,841
    Ratings:
    +85,032 / 84 / -31
    I guess, but all we've gotten is "let's blow up the Republic! Cause were villains!" We needed Bloodline to get that political context.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Imbrie

    Imbrie Rebel General

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2014
    Posts:
    245
    Likes Received:
    306
    Trophy Points:
    4,022
    Credits:
    968
    Ratings:
    +523 / 23 / -6

    Well, we absoltely need some context, intent, information otherwise the backdrop is, well, blank and uninformed.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    Posts:
    735
    Likes Received:
    1,332
    Trophy Points:
    4,842
    Credits:
    1,687
    Ratings:
    +1,926 / 126 / -51
    I enjoy the amount of politics in the PT. It works well because Palpatine used politics as one of his primary weapons.

    The big problem with the ST is there is no explanation whatsoever regarding how we got from the end of E6 to the state of affairs in the galaxy at the start of E7.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  6. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Posts:
    3,944
    Likes Received:
    13,565
    Trophy Points:
    144,267
    Credits:
    13,363
    Ratings:
    +18,372 / 302 / -95
    By design each trilogy can be watched without watching the other films. The OT doesn't give us backstory on the Rebellion and Empire. We're basically thrown in the middle of a civil war in the OT and ST.
     
  7. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    4,377
    Likes Received:
    19,612
    Trophy Points:
    146,667
    Credits:
    17,979
    Ratings:
    +24,006 / 64 / -37
    To be honest, the only politics that I truly hate in the PT is in TPM, and early parts of AotC. The trade war stuff is just... silly. I guess it's important for Palpatine's rise, but it's also so needlessly dry.

    The politics in the Clone Wars era is better. It's still kinda boring and probably needless exposition, but it's at least relevant.

    It's a fine line, but the near complete lack of politics in the ST has seriously contributed to my often cited biggest gripe with the trilogy- scale. Without the context of politics, we have so little of an idea how the First Order and Resistance are affecting the galaxy.

    If anything, I think Rogue One may have the best politics in the entire series. Short, sweet, and to the point. There's little fat to strip away, and it's also not a stuffy senate building, but a tense (and poorly organized) war room.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  8. Imbrie

    Imbrie Rebel General

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2014
    Posts:
    245
    Likes Received:
    306
    Trophy Points:
    4,022
    Credits:
    968
    Ratings:
    +523 / 23 / -6
    Yeah, that doesn't work.
     
  9. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Posts:
    3,944
    Likes Received:
    13,565
    Trophy Points:
    144,267
    Credits:
    13,363
    Ratings:
    +18,372 / 302 / -95
    The politics in the PT get a bad rap. That wasn't the issue with those films. It's all story execution. People seem to think that these films are supposed to give detailed backstories on each character. It's just not the case.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2015
    Posts:
    618
    Likes Received:
    1,079
    Trophy Points:
    7,392
    Credits:
    2,318
    Ratings:
    +1,659 / 42 / -5
    In my opinion, that is basically the point of the trade war - it is a seemingly mundane dispute that they thought would be resolved easily. A key component of the PT is the progression from a seemingly healthy and functional democracy, to a system that is collapsing, to a dictatorship.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  11. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2015
    Posts:
    2,204
    Likes Received:
    9,247
    Trophy Points:
    87,867
    Credits:
    10,213
    Ratings:
    +10,692 / 26 / -10
    You've got a good point here. And now I'm starting to question why the ST being about Kylo and Rey bothers me so much. Thanks for pointing out something I need to ponder on for a while!

    Again, I disagree with this. The OT got away with this because it was modeling itself after something the ST is NOT. The OT is a Fairytale, mythological in its arc and fantastical in its world. The ST isn't trying to be a mythic story, and that's fine. But to say that it can get away with the same stuff as the OT did does a disservice to both trilogies.

    As for your point about the trilogies being able to be watched apart from each other, you're partially right. Ideally, yes, they should be able to. But the first line of TFA throws that idea out the window with it's first line. A great first line, but immediately there's a gap if you've never seen the OT. Who is Luke Skywalker? Why is he missing? Why is he the last Jedi? Why should I care?

    TFA oozes nostalgia and references to the OT at every pore and fans who haven't seen the previous movies might feel like they're missing something. Why is the ship Rey and Finn have to escape on making everyone cheer? Who is this old man and that walking carpet? Why is he separated from his...wife? Lover? Questions like these. Questions that make fans who haven't seen older movies actively know they're missing something and potentially disengage because of that.

    China might be a good example as well; the Star Wars movies fail over there despite the major push by Disney because they don't have that connection to the OT. Now, there might be cultural reasons* why as well (tastes and expectations via marketing, etc) that probably contribute, but I think my point still stands.

    Overall, you're right. The OT and ST start out thematically in the same way. But that in turn means that nothing meaningful has been accomplished since the OT. Nothing was built that could last. It's almost...defeatist in a way. Or in return makes the ST look bad, since it stylistically doesn't feel as unique as either of its predecessors.*

    So yes, each trilogy can be treated as individuals, but I think they lose something that way. Yes, the politicking was a lot to bear in the PT, but it's balanced out by the lack of politics in the OT. The ST should have had balance between them, but doesn't...which means somewhere along the line, we ARE going to get more politics. And I'd rather it be in the next movie delivered alongside a great adventure film than bogging down a book or clogging a cartoon (which should be used to expand the politics, not introduce them) or overloading the next trilogy. And yes, that last example did kill the alliteration. But we will survive.

    I'm not trying to hate on TFA. I freaking LOVE the film - it's one of my favorite Star Wars movies. And I don't envy JJ at all. He had to make lemonade for a pretty tough crowd out of some pretty sour lemons. And he made some pretty great lemonade (probably helped by that sparkling water we call Disney Movie). I'm just trying to say that hindsight is 20/20 and that we as fans and LF as a company need to look back to move forward on the right path. And I think that path involves more politics. ...and now I want lemonade...



    *Before someone calls me racist or something else, I'm not saying I would know what these cultural reasons are, just that they DO exist and happen from time to time. Like how seemingly a lot of Westerners HATE Tingle in The Legend of Zelda, a lot of the Japanese audience and/or creators seem to adore him.

    In the Japanese movie Wolf Children, when Yuki (the daughter) gives up her childish, tomboy hobbies to become more...traditionally (?) feminine...it annoyed a lot of the American audience I was with. Whereas in Japan, for the Japanese audience the movie was intended for, it might have been seen as a step towards maturity.

    The original marketing of Big Hero 6 (called Baymax in Japan) focused more on loss and the life that comes after that, whereas in America, the first trailer focused more on the action I believe.

    ...or the giant Soleil controversy in Fire Emblem Fates...

    My point is that that there might have been more to the disconnect between the Chinese audience and the ST than just a lack of connection to the OT. But to deny the latter point is not the intention either...I'm just trying to say that I've seen things like this in person and don't want to count them out! ...you know what, I'm gonna shut up about this now...

    *The OT and PT definitely have different styles. That's been discussed from here to infinity. What I'm trying to say is that because the ST went back to its roots - back to the OT style and feel - it looks updated but feels the same. And I don't think that's the best look for the franchise going forward.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  12. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    4,377
    Likes Received:
    19,612
    Trophy Points:
    146,667
    Credits:
    17,979
    Ratings:
    +24,006 / 64 / -37
    That makes sense, and I can see how that's a logical trajectory.

    But it's just so boring, and they spend so much time on it.

    I understand trying to ramp up the conflict, and how starting from a place of relative stability could benefit that structure, but if the point of your story is that the conflict is initially mundane, it's probably best to briefly introduce that idea then move completely away from it (which is sort of why the Tatooine section works, though personally I think even that section moved far too slow too). We spend a good chunk of the movie with the trade war politics in the beginning, and again later in the film.
     
  13. Jedi77-83

    Jedi77-83 Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2014
    Posts:
    2,281
    Likes Received:
    4,417
    Trophy Points:
    13,687
    Credits:
    5,881
    Ratings:
    +6,698 / 176 / -38
    Disney has decided that they were going to mimic the OT from the beginning, so I don't think we will get any politics in Episode 9. While I like TFA and TLJ, I think this 'catering' to the fans has hurt the narrative. They didn't want politics in the ST, because they were worried it resemble the PT too much (and that was because of a certain part of the fanbase didn't like the PT). They made TFA much like the OT/ANH because they wanted to please a certain fanbase again who wanted the OT again. Then they make TLJ to appease the fans who thought TFA was unoriginal, as it is an endless cycle of trying to please this fanbase and that fanbase. Disney should be making these movies and stop thinking about who to please.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    4,377
    Likes Received:
    19,612
    Trophy Points:
    146,667
    Credits:
    17,979
    Ratings:
    +24,006 / 64 / -37
    "Don't try to please the fanbase and just make a movie."

    TLJ comes out.

    "No, not like that!"

    :p
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Posts:
    279
    Likes Received:
    313
    Trophy Points:
    867
    Credits:
    306
    Ratings:
    +506 / 15 / -28
    I really want to have a conversation with these fans.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2016
    Posts:
    4,377
    Likes Received:
    19,612
    Trophy Points:
    146,667
    Credits:
    17,979
    Ratings:
    +24,006 / 64 / -37
    Trust me, there's a certain thread here full of them, and I'm pretty sure you frequent it.
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  17. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2016
    Posts:
    3,944
    Likes Received:
    13,565
    Trophy Points:
    144,267
    Credits:
    13,363
    Ratings:
    +18,372 / 302 / -95
    How is the ST not a mythical story?
    My mother-in-law who has never watched a Star Wars movies enjoyed TFA and understood the film because this story is essentially about Rey/Finn/Kylo Ren. Why finding Luke matters is clearly explained in the film.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  18. Jack_Forest

    Jack_Forest Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2018
    Posts:
    899
    Likes Received:
    5,664
    Trophy Points:
    14,117
    Credits:
    4,453
    Ratings:
    +6,578 / 30 / -16
    You are absolutely right. OT didn't have any politics because it was a fairy tale about a farmboy, a smuggler and a princess fighting an evil wizard and his (mostly) faceless minions. ST is not a fairy tale and that's why it need to explain why things are the way they are. I took me 5 books and 2 comic book series to finally get the "full picture" and it still lacks certain pieces (like Snoke and the Knights of Ren). While the Prequel era conflicts were way more complex, you don't need any supplemental materials to understand who was fighting and why.
    And so, I believe that Disney would have to add political dimension to the future Wars in the Stars, regardless of what some "fans" might think about the Prequel Trilogy.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Darth_Mu

    Darth_Mu Rebelscum

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2018
    Posts:
    279
    Likes Received:
    313
    Trophy Points:
    867
    Credits:
    306
    Ratings:
    +506 / 15 / -28
    I think that was the Disney plan.
    There's already some people screaming SJW and alt right/left. When you add more...
    Anyway, the OT had some political as well, but they did much better in execution. e.g. The bad guys are called Stormtroopers (German). The Imperial uniforms are reminiscent of Imperial Japanese Army uniforms. However, there wasn't any monologues about evil. We weren't convinced the Empire was evil just because the open scrawl told us. We knew the Empire was evil when the DEATH STAR destroyed Alderaan. The bad guys acted evilly. The acted instead of talk.
     
  20. Jack_Forest

    Jack_Forest Force Sensitive

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2018
    Posts:
    899
    Likes Received:
    5,664
    Trophy Points:
    14,117
    Credits:
    4,453
    Ratings:
    +6,578 / 30 / -16
    No, I don't mean real-life politics (that would kill the franchise). I mean in-universe politics, like why do you need a Resistance against the First Order? Why doesn't the New Republic do anything? What is the New Rebublic and how is it run? Etc.
    Remember the first Mandalore arc from the Clone Wars. It took 3 episodes (half the TFA) to explain a) the current situation on Mandalore, b) who the Death Watch are, c) why Palpatine wants to invade Mandalore and d) why exactly Obi-Wan and Anakin must prevent that from happening. The arc is both exciting and makes total sense. That is what I mean and what I personally want to see from future trilogies/series.
     
    • Like Like x 2
Loading...

Share This Page