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How The Last Jedi saves the prequels.

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Adam812, Jan 3, 2020.

  1. Adam812

    Adam812 Rebel General

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    I really loved this video essay. It expresses exactly what I appreciate about The Last Jedi.
     
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  2. Philo

    Philo Clone Trooper

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    Interesting how the franchise called 'Star WARS' attracts many fans by the powers of the Force and the many fights and space battles. But in fact an overarching theme is NONVIOLENCE. A few thoughts:

    As a 39 year old man, I know some teenagers who love Star Wars too. I still hear their mother saying: "After watching episodes I-IV, I still don't understand. They want peace, but they fight."

    Luke's entire story arc from ANH to TLJ:
    - in ANH he is the promiseful, talented boy, strong with the force and a good pilot, who ultimately trusts the Force and blows up the Death Star. The episode ends in victory but it's ultimately a violent victory.
    - TESB: despite their victory, the rebels are on the run (you can't solve the problem by blowing things up, right?). Luke takes his weapons with him when entering the Dagobah cave (against Yoda's advice). At Bespin, he believes he can save everyone by killing Darth Vader, who for him is a simple demon he can strike down to bring goodness back. Luke is the first of the two to ignite his light saber. He learns that Vader is not a demon, but his own father.
    - ROTJ: Now Luke has to choose between violence and nonviolence many times. He is nonviolent when he can: He negotiates with Jabba, but uses his lightsabre when Jabba doesn't comply. With the Ewoks he sees a peaceful solution and succeeds using the Force in a creative way. Confronting Vader, his ultimate victory comes in throwing away his lightsabre.
    - TLJ: The bitter Luke had learned the message of nonviolence but at first confuses it with non-action. Ultimately he saves the heroes by being creative with the Force again. TLJ is the first SW episode in which two lightsabres don't hit each other. In a nonviolent way he confronts Kylo Ren and gives the heroes time to escape.

    What about TROS? Some might say it retcons the nonviolent message of TLJ and the destruction of the entire Sith fleet isn't quite peaceful, but some observations here:
    - Rey's arc: her lightning killing an entire transport and Rey suddenly fearing her own violent nature. Before that she saved the heroes by healing a wounded giant worm, not by killing it (she realized why the animal was dangerous). When she learns about her evil grandfather, she fears her own violent ways. She harms Kylo Ren and then heals him. She too confuses nonviolence with non-action motivated by fear. Ultimately she takes the lightsabre, but she doesn't use it to strike down Palpatine (which would have made her the Empress). She ultimately wins by deflecting Palpatine's evil powers back to him. Palpatine was killed by his own evilness, not by Rey's fatal blow.
    - the good wins not by advanced technology but by co-operation: the reason why there are so many (at first sight useless) supporting characters in this movie: defected storm troopers (thus abstaining from violence against civilians), smugglers, an old ally. Notice the contrast between the diversity in the Resistance Plus Army when Lando arrives and the uniformity of the Sith Destroyer fleet. Unity in diversity wins. The supporting characters are really 'supporting' in this one, they make the heroes believe they're not alone.
    - a detail: when Poe is at Exegol with only a small fleet: his orders to fly between the Star Destroyers so these SD's will hit each other. Their own violence used against them.
    - Finn saying to Rey that killing Palpatine is not Rey.
    Off course the victory of the good is still violent, it's not perfectly peaceful. But one could argue how well an entire fleet of Star Destroyers defecting to the good or Palpatine suddenly becoming a good guy would be conceived by the audience. But at least now there is a perspective in the Galaxy: Hope returned, many people will cooperate to build something new. Maybe that perspective was lacking at the end of ROTJ?

    I don't fully agree with the idea that Yoda and Obi-Wan were manipulating Luke to use violence. I understand they wanted him to confront Vader, not necessarily kill him. Obi-Wan lied to him to protect him, sometimes not telling the truth can be morally better (example: in WWII telling the nazis there are no Jews hidden in your house). Nevertheless the old Jedi Order wasn't flawless: the rigidity and severe dogmatism. The fact that they weren't allow to love, which probably pulled Anakin closer to the darkside (while the love between Rey and Ben was an important factor in victory), Yoda using the clones and immediately regretting it ("Not victory, begun this clone war has"), the dogmatic aversion of emotions like anger (sometimes a very human emotion originating in a sense of justice which can lead to the right action if dealt with correctly like Rey seems to do multiple times in the ST).
     
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  3. Angelman

    Angelman Servant to the Whills & Slave to the Muses
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    This was a very good video essay by a very talented young man. I’m impressed! :D He has very good points, I think, and he also communicate his arguments with clarity and strength. And the video itself is very well done. Kudos dude! :cool:

    I do, however, think he’s a little bit wrong about what the Jedi were supposed to be in the OT. As I see it, the failure and corruption of the Jedi was not a given in the OT where they WERE meant to be a force of goodness and wisdom. In my interpretation at least, Yoda & Old Ben refrained from telling Luke the truth because he’s the son of the most powerful & quick-to-anger emo in the history of the entire galaxy and the tired old masters just assumed Luke would follow in his father’s footsteps and go right to the darkness if emotionally challenged before he had received the training to handle the shock of his origins; I mean, Yoda blatantly states this as his explanation, right? Well, that’s how I see it at least.

    Yoda (RotJ): "Unfortunate that you rushed to face him... that incomplete was your training. Not ready for the burden were you. Remember, a Jedi's strength flows from the Force. But beware. Anger, fear, aggression. The dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

    Now, my next point might very well be wrong, but I THINK that Lucas never originally intended his favorite space-wizard-samurais to be evil and stupid. He might have wanted it this way from the start, but I rather think that the story got away from him a bit and he was forced to adapt the message and tale to what he thought would make the most powerful impact. Even when expressly painting them as semi-villainous, Lucas seems to like his Jedi the most; the Jedi & the Light Side are still the good side, except when they ain’t… Lucas, I suspect, tried all along to have the Sith folks be the badies who destroys everything, with the Jedi being only manipulated, but he couldn’t find a way to follow through on it and instead had to resign – a little by little, film by film – to the Jedi themselves & their teachings to being inherently flawed and wide open to corruption.

    Likewise, I think Rian Johnson had no other choice but to draw the ultimate conclusion that Lucas couldn’t bring himself to state, that yes, the Jedi were bad (‘cause… you know, they obviously are pretty poopy in the Prequels), and make that the crux of Luke’s redemption and the rebirth of the new Jedi (which, now that the ST is completed, I assume will come to be known as the Skywalker Order, or something like that). Johnson’s Jedi & Yoda are not the Jedi & Yoda that Lucas originally intended, but they very much are the Jedi & Yoda (and Luke) that Rian Johnson inherited from Lucas' PT (and to a lesser extent the OT). Johnson, to a greater extent than Lucas, takes the Star Wars story absolutely seriously (and not just as a vehicle of popcorn entertainment and technological innovation). Johnson’s internalization of the fact that the past Jedi failed, and the way he uses this to make his movie about bringing hope for a brighter future, is one of the many, many reasons I count TLJ as easily the best, strongest, and most powerful film in the franchise.

    But yes, this was one of the better SW essays on YouTube! :)
     
    #3 Angelman, Jan 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
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  4. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    "In The Last Jedi, we finally meet Luke who went home and binged prequel trilogy and he's kind of shook." - This made me laugh.

    While I don't agree on every point (mainly Yoda and Obi-Wan), this is truly an excellent piece, well written and reasoned, positive without the need to compare it to something else. Luke redeeming the entire Order and inspiring the next generations is what made TLJ so powerful for me. By the Force, I love this movie. I guess I know what I'll watch next. :)
     
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  5. BaranDo91

    BaranDo91 Rebelscum

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    Go watch Smudboy's video, Smudcast on this video for it utterly destroys it. Houston is full of crap. The Last Jedi does not in any way save the Prequels. Heck, it creates a strawman of something that never existed.
     
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  6. GrimalkunOnTheDarkside

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    Wow. Just wow. That was some kind of cluelessness about Star Wars.

    * "A lot of people say, “What good is a lightsaber against a tank?” The Jedi weren’t meant to fight wars. That’s the big issue in the prequels. They got drafted into service, which is exactly what Palpatine wanted."

    ~ George Lucas
    Star Wars: Episode I The Phantom Menace: An oral history - StarWars.com
    20th Anniversary Interview
    ....

    * "It's not that they can't see the Dark Side coming, it's just that the Dark Side begins to envelop everything. It's like walking into a fog. The Jedi's ability to see lessens as the Dark Side grows."

    ~ George Lucas, 2005

    ..

    "The Jedi Knights are like marshals in the Wild West. It's their job to make sure everyone is protected, to bring peace. They are the enemy of the Sith, because the Sith want to dominate the galaxy, to control everything, and for a thousand years they have had a plot against the Jedi.

    So, in this movie, it is time for them to seek revenge against the Jedi for perceived injustices and to carry out that plot. "

    ~ George Lucas, Sci-Fi Online interview, 2005

    ..

    * "One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith Lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the Dark Side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other."

    ~ George Lucas
    ..

    * "He turns into Darth Vader because he gets attached to things. He can't let go of his mother, he can't let go of his girlfriend. He can't let go of things. It makes him greedy. And when you are greedy, you are on the path to the Darkside, because you fear you're going to lose things, that you're not going to have the power you need."

    ~ George Lucas, Time Magazine, 2002

    ..

    * "It's fear of losing somebody he loves, which is the flipside of of greed.Greed, in terms of the Emperor, it is the greed for power, absolute power,over everything. With Anakin, really it's the power to save the one he loves, but is basically going against the Fates and what is natural."

    ~ George Lucas, Revenge of the Sith commentary, 2005
    ..

    * "Fathered by the force Anakin was the most powerful Jedi/Sith to ever live, his greatest weakness had always been his emotions to which Palpatine took advantage of." Anakin never reached his Light/Dark side potential, he was called the "Force Messiah"

    ~ George Lucas, 2010

    ..

    * "This idea of a democracy being given up and in many cases being given up in a time of crisis, you see it throughout history whether it's Julius Caesar, or Napoleon, or Adolf Hitler, you see these democracies under a lot of pressure, in a crisis situation, who end up giving up a lot of the freedoms they have and a lot of the checks and balances to somebody with a strong authority to help get them through the crisis. It's not the first time a politician has created a war to try to stay in office."

    ~ George Lucas
    ..


    * "The core of the Force....you've got the Light Side and the Dark Side, one is selfless, one is selfish, and you want to keep them in balance. What happens when you go to the Darkside, It [The Force] goes out of balance."


    ~ George Lucas, 2010
    video -
    - [50 second mark]

    ..

    * "Your allowed to love people, you are not allowed to possess them."

    ~ George Lucas, 2010 - 2:45 mark

    ..

    * "Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships."
    ~ George Lucas, BBC News, May 15, 2

    ..

    * "The message is you can't possess things. You can't hold on to them. You have to accept change. You have to accept the fact that things transition. And so, as you try to hold on to things or you become afraid of -- that you're going to lose things, then you begin to crave the power to control those things. And then, you start to become greedy and then you turn into a bad person."

    ~ George Lucas, 1997

    ..

    * "The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and Greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion - of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides - the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction."

    ~ George Lucas, Time interview (Bill Moyers) 03/05/99

    ..

    * "The fact that everything must change and that things come and go through his life and that he can't hold onto things which is a basic Jedi philosophy that he isn't willing to accept emotionally and the reason that is because he was raised by his mother rather than the Jedi. If he'd have been taken in his first year and started to study to be a Jedi, he wouldn't have this particular connection as strong as it is and he'd have been trained to love people but not to become attached to them. But he has become attached to his mother and he will become attached to Padme and these things are, for a Jedi, who needs to have a clear mind and not be influenced by threats to their attachments, a dangerous situation. And it feeds into fear of losing things, which feeds into greed, wanting to keep things, wanting to keep his possessions and things that he should be letting go of. His fear of losing her turns to anger at losing her, which ultimately turns to revenge in wiping out the village. The scene with the Tusken Raiders is the first scene that ultimately takes him on the road to the Dark Side. I mean he's been prepping for this, but that's the one where he's sort of doing something that is completely inappropriate."

    ~ George Lucas

    ..

    * "He's greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he's greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There's a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the Dark Side. And it also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi-Wan and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants to be, which he hears that he will be, so here he sort of lays out his ambition and you'll see later on his ambition and his dialogue here is the same as Dooku's....
    Because of that, and because he was unwilling to let go of his mother, because he was so attached to her, he ommitted this terrible revenge on the Tusken Raiders."

    ~ George Lucas, 2006
    ..


    ..
    Dave Filoni on the Force. Basically the same thing Lucas said.

    "Everything you need to know about the Force is in the movies, I can't say that enough...Everything recycles, cosmic force, living force, cosmic force, living force...it's all made up of the same stuff.

    Our agency to use the force for ourselves creates evil, and the Darkside as something to be oppressive and destructive rather than just the natural process of life and death. And than our commitment to being selfless, giving unto others, generates kindness and happiness, togetherness and bonding and not being afraid of things outside ourselves and that is the Lightside of the Force and everyone gets along and is happier....I mean this is nothing new that I'm doing."

    Dave Filoni, Rebels Season 4 Finale Q&A

    ..

    "The key part of this scene is Anakin saying, 'I'm not going to let thishappen again.' We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi, and the only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark side because the Dark side is more powerful. *If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side, which is the Dark side, but ultimately it'll be your undoing.* But it's that need for power and that need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and allow the natural course of life to go on -- which is that things come and go -- and to be able to accept the change around you and not want to keep moments frozen forever in time."
    ~ George Lucas, AotC DVD commentary track [during Shmi's funeral], 2005
    ...
    The person who made this video really lost a lot of credibility when they stated that "The Jedi used the Clones as their Army" and implied the Jedi didn't care about them and their lives.

    Clearly the person never watched the Clone Wars Series [2008]. George Lucas made almost all the stories and their outcomes. There is more canon in that than in the movies. [12 vs. 44 hours that make up the entire Official Star Wars canon under Lucas].


    The Jedi didn't use the Clone Army, the Republic did under orders from Palpatine. Palpatine created that war, it was artificial. He was in control of the sepratists as well.

    It was all part of the 1000 year old Sith Plan to take the galaxy back and under Sith Rule once again.

    The Jedi couldn't have treated the Clones better if they tried. They cared for them, they treated them with great respect, they saw them as individuals and they made no distinction between them and anyone else. They risked their lives for them and in some cases they died for them.

    The Jedi didn't want to fight in that war at all, they got drafted, that was part of the plan as well, and we see that with Order 66.

    The Jedi didn't fail Anakin, Anakin failed the Jedi. Because he was Greedy and he was Selfish and he had great fear. The Jedi sensed this the first time they met him as a child when Qui-gon brought him before the council. This is why they said he couldn't be trained. They sensed the danger. Obi-Wan pushed their hand.

    No one has to be a Jedi, you are allowed to leave the Order. He could have had his family if he wanted. Anakin wasn't in any different of a position than any of the other Jedi. They all lived by the same rules. Somehow all the other Jedi managed to do so without making a deal with the devil and walking down the Dark Path and falling to the Darkside.

    People want to pass judgement on all the Jedi for what they percieve as wrong doing by the council, who weren't wrong at all. They got pulled into politics by Palpatine, they got pulled into the War by Palpatine, they got lied to by Palpatine, they got set up by Palpatine. The most powerful Sith Lord that ever existed and the culmination of a 1000 year old Sith plan to destroy the Jedi.

    The Jedi couldn't sense him not because they were corrupted themselves, that is assine, it was the Darkside itself that clouded their perceptions and Mace Windu says in ROTS "Should we inform the council that our powers are growing weaker?"

    The only way a Jedi can be gifted with the rarest of gifts by the Force, [Force Ghost, keeping one's identity after death] is by having lived a life of pure selflessness and sacrifice. The Force only gifts those that exemplify those things and who followed the Will of the Force.

    Yoda and Obi-Wan became Force Ghosts.

    The Jedi didn't fail. They got beaten. Anakin Skywalkwer made a deal with the devil, because he cared more about himself and defying the natural order of things, than he did about doing the right thing, and serving others first, which is the hallmark of being a Jedi.

    The Jedi do not take child that the parent does not give permission to do. No one gets forced into being a Jedi or staying a Jedi.

    The Jedi were the Good guys. No one is perfect.

    Rian Johnson ruined Star Wars. He is a hack and the maker of this video doesn't have the slightest clue about Lucas's vision.

    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 1, 2020, Original Post Date: Aug 1, 2020 ---
    P.S.
    The Reason why Anakin was able to become a Force Ghost despite not having lived a life purely on the Lightside/selflessness was because he WAS following the Will of the Force.

    He needed to fall in order to be in a position that he could carry out the Prophecy and Destroy the Sith and in addition bring Balance to the Force by destorying the last Darksider in the Galaxy, himself having turned back to the Light.

    He was miserable, he lost everything, but he always had a spark of Good left in him. He did terrible things, but he also saved the Universe from the Eternal Darkness that would have reigned forever with the immortal Emperor.

    He was The Chosen One and the Force picked him to do that and he fufilled his Destiny and the Will of the Force.

    "Anakin is the Chosen One, and even when Anakin becomes Darth Vader he is still the Chosen one. The Prophecy is that Anakin will bring balance to the force and destroy the Sith. He becomes Darth Vader. Darth Vader does become the hero. Darth Vader does destroy the Sith, meaning himself and the Emperor. He does it, because he is redeemed by his son.”

    So the prophecy is true and by doing that he redeems himself and goes from
    being Darth Vader back to Anakin Skywalker.


    Everybody thought of Darth Vader as this big evil guy, that he had no heart, that he was just evil. But in the end it's not that at all. Here's a guy who's lost everything."


    ~ George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; 2005
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 1, 2020 ---
    "The thing that she says at the very end [Padme] that 'there's still good in him',as Luke says later on in Return of the Jedi, that 'there's still good in you', that's recurring, because there is and that's the one thing that will bring balance back to the Force, that little ounce of good in him, and it's his son that makes him realize that he made the wrong decision [ROTS], that the time for rationalization is over, and he needs to do the right thing which is to get rid of the Sith and bring Balance back to the Force."

    ~ George Lucas [it's him saying it in this video, you can hear him speaking]

    Balance: Episode III - Philosophy Of George Lucas
     
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  7. Creo

    Creo Clone

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    I agree man, the last jedi was a great movie
     
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  8. Embo and His Pet Anooba

    Embo and His Pet Anooba Rebel Official

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    It's really hard for me to like this movie because the last part was so awesome, but the 1st and some of the 2nd act was so silly at some points. And yes, Star Wars has always had inconsistent pacing, but it bothers me more in this movie, probably because of how awesome the 3rd act is.
     
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