The Symmetry of The Last Jedi

@Jayson , I have created a thread dedicated to this topic here https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....ween-sw-and-tolkiens-lord-of-the-rings.54024/

 

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. This is a fascinating thread and you have articulated concepts far better than my clumsy attempts in the past (I started a "Ring Theory in TLJ" thread a while back that got very little traction, unlike this one... but that can be attributed to your eloquence in discussing the concepts in detail).

I, too, am very attracted to the symmetry, "rhyming," mirroring, chiasmus, or even "Ring Theory" in Star Wars (and life in general). I find it masterful how these concepts play both forwards and backwards. So I have really enjoyed reading OP's thoughts on these concepts. There are two subjects for which I am curious to hear @Jayson's thoughts:

First, I think the structure of the saga thus far might actually suggest a 12 part story rather than only 9 parts. We can debate about GL's flip-flopping on how may episodes he really had in mind or for which he even had outlines. But just looking at the structure of the saga, I see the ST as not just the stories of next generation of Skywalker heroes and villains (The Legacy of Darth Vader), but providing a sort of mirror image of what has come before. One of the most obvious things to me is the parallel of the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker with that of Kylo Ren. Structurally, it seems to me that the ST is very much the origin story for Kylo Ren that the PT should have been for the origin story for Darth Vader (I did not enjoy the PT anywhere near as much as the OT, but I can appreciate how George Lucas created the symmetry, rhymes, or echoes in the structure between those trilogies. In that respect, the PT is a very commendable work of art.) After all, in my mind Kylo Ren has done nothing in the ST thus far but descend further into the dark and attempt to extinguish the light he feels. Anyway, if the ST is truly the story of the "Tragedy of Kylo Ren," then I would think for the OT "Redemption of Darth Vader" story to be fully balanced, we should have a Sequel-ST that is the story of the "Redemption of Kylo Ren."

On the other side of this same subject, I also see the ST as not just a mirroring of the PT (and OT), but also the inversion of the OT. In TLJ particularly, we have both a mirroring and inversion of the plot of ESB. At the beginning of ESB, the Rebellion is on a white snow covered planet trying to escape the Empire who has just discovered where they are and they end up on the run. At the end of TLJ, the Resistance ends up on a white salt covered planet after they have been on a long run trying to escape the pursuing First Order. The middle of both movies involves our Force hero on a journey with a Jedi master to discover who he/she really is. Meanwhile, a group of their friends is on a seemingly utopian planet that is not at all what it seems. At the end of ESB, our heroes have escaped the clutches of the Empire and are fully on the run. Meanwhile, the beginning of TLJ has our heroes fully on the run from the pursuing First Order.

Anyway, I have digressed, but my question is, do you see any evidence within the structure of the ST thus far to suggest that there may actually be 12 parts, so that we will get a "Redemption of Kylo Ren" trilogy? I just think there is too much "ascent" from the dark for Kylo Ren that must take place and one more episode doesn't seem like enough film to do it in convincingly.

The second thing that I am fascinated by in the Star Wars structure is the application of these concepts not with respect to historical mythological epics like the Odyssey, the Iliad, etc., but to religious works... or "savior" stories. I think everyone has heard Anakin/Darth Vader referred to as "Space Jesus" due to his immaculate conception and his ultimate sacrifice to save Luke and the galaxy. But to me, Anakin/Darth Vader was always an inverse savior figure. What I mean by that is that while most saviors are believed to have led lives devoid of sin, evil, or darkness, Anakin/Darth Vader's life was almost completely marred by darkness and evil, except for his very earliest and last deeds. So in a lot of ways, I always thought of Luke (and almost moreso, Leia) as the true "savior" in the OT because although there was temptation, almost all of their decisions and deeds were guided by compassion and love for one another. I have also read the thread here "Rey is Space Moses"... and of course depending on whether or not you believe her parents abandoned her and sold her for drinking money, Rey could be the new "savior." People seem to see biblical mirroring or rhyming not just in the PT and OT, but the ST too.

So, I guess the second set of questions I have concern your thoughts on the connections between Star Wars and such biblical and/or "savior" stories, whether they be direct or inverse, as I have suggested. What relationship, if any, do you see in Star Wars characters, both old and new, to such religious figures? EDIT: I just read your comparison of Snoke to King Herod in another thread... Spot on!

Thanks for this wonderful thread and all of your reasoned insight.

 

From what I remember, Kylo turned because he was attacked by Luke, whose action made no sense. Rey, whose Mary Sue character makes her more powerful than even Anakin, reaches to Luke for no useful reason except to be told that Jediism is irrelevant and that everyone can make use of the Force with little effort (including Broom Boy). The only complication involves the relationship between Kylo and Rey, which not only lacks chemistry but is developed partly through the efforts of Snoke, who is ironically taken out of the picture in a banal manner. Similar can be seen in irrational Luke who could have easily countered Kylo much earlier in the story.

Altogether, TLJ may have symmetry but the basis of such is badly made.

 

Each character is tortured by the writer and I think this produces symmetry, but also superb challenge and progression for each major character.

Rian literally puts every character into their worst crisis.

Leia comes to the horrifying realization that nobody cares about her rebellion.

Rey realizes she is nobody.

Poe of course faces the fact he becomes disloyal to the Resistance at its greatest hour of need.

Luke of course realizes he can teach better from afar, just like his master before him.

Kylo realizes killing Han Solo did not subdue his call to the light. But also...actually...Kylo wins the film. Sure Rey escapes and Luke pulls a fast one on him, but he's now the most powerful person in the galaxy, that's a huge win for someone who got shot in the gut by Chewbacca just days earlier. And if you look at how he seduces both Rey and Kylo at the same time to earn that victory, you have to hand it to him, it's a big win. He's smarter than his fan critics give him credit for...he's WINNING...in case anyone hasn't noticed.

So yeah symmetry, but also tremendous challenge for each major character.

That's not to say there are not flaws in the script, there most certainly are. I think even the biggest fan of this installment can concede that.

But in general, the overall arc of the story is an excellent place by the end of the film. And each character progresses in interesting ways. All of them. So in addition to symmetry and challenge, each character comes to a satisfying conclusion, no cliff hanger ending needed.

 

I'm not sure DJ is that wise. Well, maybe wise in his own eyes. His view of things is cynical. It's a reason to be apathetic. It's kind of like Han Solo before at the start of A New Hope. I love his philosophy in this film because it presents Finn with another path. Why join this fight if they're just gears in the machine? Ultimately, there are some causes worth fighting against and that's what Finn learns from Rose.

 

In the SXSW interview Mark Hamill observes:

"The person in the movie who is most like-minded with Luke is DJ.
They both reach the conclusion that war is completely futile.
Luke goes away to an Island and DJ decides to cash in on it."

Of course those differences say a lot.
Luke thinks he's doing the right thing by the galaxy in withdrawing to die.
DJ thinks he's doing the right thing by himself in informing to survive.

 

Good catch. Luke learns over the course of the film that withdrawing from the galaxy isn't the correct path. Some things are worth fighting for.

 

Symmetry...