Where are the plot holes?

What do you mean without navigation? What we were saying is Luke's xwing requires an astromech as a navigation system(for hyperspace travel), so he must have taken some other astromech to Ahch-To. When he went to Dagobah he had R2 as a navigation system.

 

I'm lost, displayed where is ESB? he had R2 with him. Where did you get that jedi didn't require a navigation system??

 

The situation, as I understood it, is that the Resistance ships are faster, but only slightly so. It’s just enough to keep them out of weapons range, but not significant enough to actually improve their overall condition. Over time they’ll gradually pull further and further away, but it would never reach the point of any tangible benefit.

This is what’s referred to as a ‘plot convenience’, not really a plot-hole. Unless the convenience directly contradicts some other element previously established, it’s nothing much more than extremely good luck. And since there’s no such thing as ‘luck’ in this franchise, we’d be forgiven in concluding the Force was maybe somehow augmenting probability in their favor. Just a thought. Cheers.

 

Yes. My interpretation is also that although the Resistance ships were faster, and could indeed increase the range over the FO ships over time, that increase in range would serve them no purpose on the long run, and would only buy them a few hours before they would eventually be on range and be destroyed. The movie states 18 hours. So, the 18 hours would be the result of a function between fuel reserve estimates and the distance at which the capital ships would be at the time the fuel runs out assuming all ships kept moving at their top speeds (which doesn't require their top speeds to be equal).

So, and as you say, it's not required for the plot to work that the ships all had to have the same top speed. The Resistance ships were moving faster, but the speed difference serves them no purpose other than to gain a bit more distance over time which isn't relevant to the situation from a tactical sense.

The Resistance cruisers were indeed "tied at the end of a string". They couldn't jump to light speed wiithout being tracked again until being caught, and they couldn't get away running on sub-light engines even if they were gaining a bit more distance over time. In other words, any more distance they would get from the speed advantage would make no difference in the end.

 

A plot-hole is a story incongruity that can’t be reasonably rectified given the information provided within the narrative. It’s not something that has no conceivable explanation. In a fabricated reality, there’s no such thing. You’ll always be able to invent something to help the pieces fit.

We’re given numerous reasons for why the First Order would/could call for backup and zero reasons for why they wouldn’t/couldn’t. That’s an absence of detail that directly effects the central premise of the story. It’s a figurative hole in the plot. That’s not “bashing”, it’s just an accurate assessment of the screenplay.

1. We know from the opening crawl that a) the First Order has other warships positioned throughout the galaxy and b) they consider the Resistance the only obstacle in their path to domination.

2. We know long-range communication works since Poe was able to talk to Maz form wherever the hell she was.

3. We know hyperspace jumping to these coordinates works since Chew-Rey and F-Ro-Dee were able to drop in right where they apparently wanted to be.

4. We know that Snoke, pissed that Hux let them slip by once already, was more than eager to have the situation over with.

Now. What reasons, presented in the movie, prevented the First Order from calling for backup?

 

Their other main ships were busy across the galaxy + they just saw what one x wing did to a dreadnaught. They don’t want to risk anything like that again. Stick with the plan. It’s working and there is no escape for the Resistance...

 

hubris.

 

Pretty sure eliminating the only threat the First Order had in the galaxy would have been a little higher on their list.

“No escape” is how they escaped before. There’s no reason for them to leave it to chance if they didn’t have to.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 28, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 27, 2017 ---

On behalf of who?

 

1. Indeed. But the FO didn’t bank on the Resistance finding a way to escape.
2. We saw how arrogant and ignorant Hux was. And again, they were in the middle of space, running out of fuel and couldn’t jump into hyperspace to get away. The FO thought it was a done deal.

You may reject this as an answer but you cannot say it is inexplicable within the narrative. We saw what the rebels could do to one mother ship. We saw that the FO underestimates them. We saw that the FO thought the rebels were doomed. That all lends itself to the explanation I have given.

No plot hole. It’s a bit of a stretch and contrived - but so is so much of this fantasy story for kids.

 

Hux and the FO failed because they were excessively confident in their ability to defeat the Resistance. that's in the movie and made crystal clear. Hux even makes a sort of cruel joke by ordering their ships to continue firing on the Resistance despite the fact that it does nothing.

the thread of vanity and pride is made clear throughout the film. Luke laments the pride of the Jedi order, then he admits his own pride prompted him to think about killing his nephew, and to top it all off Kylo Ren becomes the epitome of pride and vanity by killing his master and claiming the name of Supreme Leader.

it may seem like a silly reason, but there's no deeper motivation needed.

 

Exactly. So why insist on a strategy that already failed once when there’s nothing compelling them to do so. The story is requiring them to.

Hux doesn’t operate in a vacuum. He reports to Snoke. Snoke commands ALL the First Order. Not just this group of ships. How do you rationalize insisting on using only one of your hands to catch a fly when you don’t have to? He just enjoys the challenge?

I can because the option isn’t even presented as a possibility. Their actions are actively counterproductive to the party’s stated goals – destroy the Resistance and conquer the galaxy. Dragging it out unnecessarily is not a benefit to that end.

 

This isn’t a real life war drama. The fact that Hux and the FO think their plan is working fine fits with the narrative of the film and the way the characters were written. Realistic war scenes be damned, this is Star Wars! Do you think the Battle of Endor was realistic or do you have opinions on why the Emperor planned things out the way he did? What do you think about Ewoks?

 

This isn’t a debate on the realistic nature of a fantasy world. A gap in story logic exists whether it’s Chaucer or Mickey Mouse. If a character possesses an ability that would resolve a situation, but refuses to use it, then the story has an obligation to explain that. If Kylo decided to fight the Praetorian Guard without the use of his lightsaber, that would require some sort of explanation. We could assume he’s being arrogant. Or we can just assume the writer forgot that was an option.

You’re referring to a plot detail that actually had an explicit explanation. Palp wanted to trap the Rebel fleet and have them see DS2 was operational before their defeat. It wasn’t a great plan, but we were given context. Specific dialogue was added for Lando and Piett to point out there was another strategy he didn’t take. See the difference?

 

I’ve answered all this. You’re just repeating stuff. Not sure what else I can add. There are far bigger actual plot holes in Star Wars. Just watch the PT!

Look - the “the rebels are on a piece of string”. Hux’s plan to follow and destroy is working. That alone is reason enough to stay on course. But there are numerous other Star Warsian factors that can be deduced:

Snoke wanted it to be dragged out for Rey and Ren’s sake. Hux wanted his ship to strike the final blow. The other FO ships were occupying other worlds and it was unnecessary to bring them in. Changing a plan that is working might backfire.

You can rest assured that people who went to see the film for entertainment, weren’t fussed by this. It’s a fantasy film. Stuff ain’t realistic. As long as it is entertaining and the philosophical underpinnings are right, these little contrivances aren’t worth worrying about.

 

Yeah, it’s pretty frustrating when somebody isn’t getting what you’re saying

The thread didn’t ask for plot-holes in the PT. It didn’t distinguish between major and minor. It asked for any hole in TLJ and I’m providing one.

Sure. Any of those would be acceptable answers. My personal head canon is that Snoke was fully aware of what their plan was and deliberately fostered a sense of hope that he would enjoyably take away – because he’s a sinister queef and such.

Trouble is that it isn’t addressed in the actual movie. TLJ doesn’t present an alternative and then show they chose this path knowledgeably. It delivers it as if they never even thought about something that's fairly obvious. That’s the gap in logic. That’s the hole. Is this making any sense yet?

The entertainment value and philosophical underpinnings aren’t the premise of this thread. A challenge was issued. One that my priggish, neurotic little noodle can’t resist: find the hole.

 

In Narrative:

1. Did they need back up? Holdo suprised just them. It was unexpected.
2. Hux and Snoke agree that the resistance "is tied on a string and that they cannot escape."
3. When the FO ships jumped in they were directly blocking the path of the resistance fleet which had to do a turn about to stay out of effective gun range.

Ouside the narrative space of the movie
4. Jumping in other ships would always come in from the same angle the first order fleet emerged. Jumping in front of the resistance fleet would seriously jeopardize the engines of ships that would jump in because those Stardestroyer engines would be facing the resistance fleet's and torpedo launchers and front batteries. It would be an unnecessary risk of men and material in a pursuit that was going to end up, and did in fact end up in a First Order victory anyway.

 

From what I can tell, that bit of lore comes from the 1987 West End Games Star Wars RPG, first ed. (Fun facy, by the way, Fantasy Flight Games is releasing a new edition of that- could be a lot of fun!).

Anyway, not sure that's really canon, especially after the recent Legends purge. But even if so, as is already mentioned, there are a lot of droids in the... sea?

I mean, it could've been driftwood. Or maybe Luke had a boat and had traveled to another island at some point.

I mean, he couldn't have been staring off that cliff the whole time, right?

And if this is the "plot hole" that ruins a film for someone... they might be better off just living their life staring at a blank white wall. At least that's guaranteed some consistency they would approve of.