Canon vs. Legends

Because conflict and brokenness are two different things to face. I enjoy seeing characters face both. It facilitates two different types of growth.

Oh absolutely. I saw the videos of fans crying over that (something I'll personally never understand but don't mind). But again, I don't think an entire trilogy of that would work out. You'd be asking yourself questions such as "why doesn't Luke have a Jedi Academy? Or if he does have one, why isn't he watching over his students? Or why doesn't he bring them with him?" For Han and Leia you'd be asking why they're galivanting through the galaxy when they should be raising a stable home for their children - something Legends never really cared about (and was deconstructed I believe) and something the ST stuff partially brought up. You'd like the movie for a spell, but then the question of legacy would uncomfortably, inevitably pop up.

Honestly I just though it was because fans wanted to see Bad@$$ Luke and were upset that the single most awesome thing Luke did was the single most Jedi thing done. They wanted him to, as he so eloquently said, "pull out his laser sword and face down the entire First Order," because that's what they picture Legends Luke doing. But that's not the Jedi way. Hope, closure, and sacrifice - that's a Jedi way.

...as side characters who we love but know are wrong in how they're going about the story, and eventually pay for it...? Or as side characters worried about how they treat the main character and whether or not they should trust this super powerful - if not fully trained - Jedi? Or do you mean as characters who come in at the last minute to fight the Big Bad in the second film, doing a cool Jedi thing that everyone and their mother says the character shouldn't do?

The OT characters were serving the purpose of their own mentors in a way. Han was the Obi-Wan (he was saved by a Ben and killed by one), Luke had become Yoda (to the point Yoda had to come and give one last lesson), and Leia is Mon Mothma. Lando stayed the same, but that's all we ever knew.

I guess this is another point we're going to have to agree to disagree. Luke's final moments were easily some of the coolest stuff I've ever seen the character do. Legends, Canon, and all. Luke's best moments are his ones of mercy and compassion. Now granted, I would have LOVED to see his green lightsaber more, but that doesn't mean it had to have been in combat.

We truly are two different lol! I understand I'm in the minority here, but I HATED Logan. It was one of the only pieces of media to actually trigger me, and brought with it an unnecessary amount of cynicism and darkness (especially since Logan's final epiphany was one that was open to him for the ENTIRE FREAKING MOVIE). I love most X-Men things, but not this one. Never this one.

That being said, I understand the respect the point you're making here.

That's fair. If I liked Logan I'd honestly probably say the same. You should also totally check out the other stuff. Avatar The Last Airbender is one of the best shows I've ever watched. Not cartoon. Not kid's show. Show, period. And it does redemption better than Star Wars ever has (although that isn't a high bar...).

Yeah on this I agree. I've honestly stopped caring about most Canon stuff now because of that. Claudia Gray will always draw me back, and maybe if the books cover a character or two that I like, but I'm more interested in stuff not attached to the main storyline now.

 

I love both, both move the saga in new and interesting places, for better or for worse. Which is better is an impossible question, both have flaws, but are very enjoyable overall.

 

There are parts of Legends that I did like:

• Thrawn Trilogy
• Knights of the Old Republic
• Dark Empire
• Courtship of Princess Leia
• Darksaber
• X Wing: Rogue Squadron
• Tales of The Jedi
• Vader's Quest
• Dark Empire
• Darth Plaguis
• Jedi Vs Sith
• Lost Tribe of The Sith
• Republic Commando (video game)
• Boba Fett
• Legacy of The Force
• Fate of The Jedi

However, there were others that were either contradictory or just poorly written. From Disney's perspective, I can appreciate the need to effectively streamline the narrative in order to negate such contradictions and to have a definitive history. That and by the end of the canon timeline, Luke was pretty much like Raistlin from the Dragonlance novels combined with Ultra Instinct Goku.

I personally think it is too soon to come to such a determination regarding the quality of the current canon just yet as a mere 5 years is too short of a time-span in which to compare current canon to the previous canon that had been developed over decades by various publishers and individuals. Over the decades, more novels, comics and other media will be used to flesh out the gaps in the narrative and add depth to this setting.

With Project Luminous coming up, I am cautiously optimistic about the future of canon. I refuse the axiom of many individuals that I have heard- that hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. Or this partisan view of the purists that if you like one then you must dislike the other.

Or maybe there will be a compromise with the Legends fans with Star Wars being like the equivalent of series like Gundam- Gundam being a mech series with multiple iterations in different settings sharing the same central themes:

• Giant mechs
• Dyson spheres made of satellite colonies (though Iron Blooded Orphans uses Mars instead)
• One mech called a Gundam
• Mysterious dudes in masks
• Space battles

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 11, 2020, Original Post Date: Feb 11, 2020 ---

It certainly does. I would love for there to be a series running concurrently with the sequel trilogy based on the New Republic:

• How the attack by the First Order changes the social climate
• Growing militarisation within the New Republic and rearmament- the use of droids and even forced conscription may be used if it becomes desperate
• Centralisation of power in the New Republic or a ceding of power to the military who fought in the previous war
• Hawkism in the Senate and a denouncement of all pacifist policies- possibly the idea of 'total war' would gain traction as the First Order encroaches deeper into New Republic space
• After the war there would be increased military interventionism

In fact, retribution on the part of the New Republic would be likely to be harsher as they have been given a glimpse of what they could achieve and many of their former comrades died to build.

 

I apologize for taking a while to rotate back to this thread. Been a crappy 2020 so I've not been on near as much. Plus I was a bit depressed with episode IX (once the initial sugar rush wore off I really didn't like that one, but that's a topic for a different day).

So I'll try and respond to each point.

• No doubt, there is a difference between being broken and facing conflict. The one thing I'd warn RJ and LFL about, if I could go back in time and speak to them, is that if you are gonna break Luke and show how he responds to it, you'd darn well better have a good lead up/explanation for it. If you don't, you aren't going to like the reception.
• Yeah, you can't build a trilogy on nostalgia. I mean, I guess you could, but it's gonna be crap. However, you have to realize that the fans want to see the OT characters back together again. Even if only for a bit. I'd have suggested, again, if I could use my hypothetical time machine, that they 1. Make Luke the head of a new Jedi order and let him take on the role of Yoda from the PT. That effectively removes him from the action and means the actual characters we focus on have to do the heavy lifting. It also ensures a beloved character won't seem SO different that you anger 1/2 of the fanbase. So you don't need to make him into a bada$$, just tactfully remove him from the screen. Kind of the way Tolkien did with Gandalf. I don't want to see Luke come in and save the day. Maybe once. Give his fans what they want. Again, kind of like Yoda in the PT. We see him kick ass in that once scene in AOTC and then not until he himself faces the emperor. And even then, he doesn't win.
• I'll have to check out Avatar Air bender. I've heard good things about it. Now to find the time.
• I think what Luke did to Kylo was cool. The problem is, and I'm taking this from a big Luke fan (I myself was never a big Luke fan, but I get that some are), the problem is that by that point you crapped all over him. It's almost as if they subverted him and then chickened out and subverted the subversion. LMAO So says a buddy who loves Luke.
• I am a big time book reader. I didn't read all of the EU stuff, but I did enjoy what I read. I'm going back now and reading all of the stuff I should have read a long time ago. I would love the new cannon but for the most part, it just serves as a patch on the films and that's sad. I don't have the time to read all the comics so that's not going to happen.
• I know they can do good stuff. I loved Rogue One. I loved the prequel to it and the actual book. I like Timothy Zhan although so far I just can't get through book 2 of his new Thrawn Trilogy. I don't know what it is about that book, but I just can't get into it. Perhaps is the switching back and forth in the time line? I really think they need to bring back Luceno and Drew Karpyshyn. I loved their work. I also have liked Claudia Grays work on Bloodline and Master And Apprentice. I just hope this Project Luminous thingy turns out to be better than Im thinking it will be.
• Oh you are braking my heart. Logan is so good. I get it though. It is dark and thus it isn't for everyone. I just love crusty old Logan. They did a good job setting up why he is that way, at least in my opinion, and far better than RJ did with Luke. But it's all just opinions.

 

I have more of an emotional attachment to the EU obviously, but I wouldn't put one above the other. One thing I've always appreciated about Star Wars is that it's one of the last great sandboxes left in culture for people to dive in and create things in. I think, both in the EU as well as the new Canon, that's lead to unique and wonderful things, as well as a lot of very not great stuff and even outstandingly bad stuff. I think comparing the two robs you of enjoying every good Star Wars story that comes along.

I just wish that one's existence didn't prevent the other from continually updating.

 

Disney canon is still quite new, whereas the original EU had 30+ years to develop and go crazy with stories from different eras, so its a bit unfair to compare the two in many ways at this point in time.

Despite some truly great stuff from new Canon, I'm not sure it'll ever really get close to being as good as legends, for me at least. I think its heading in a better direction than what it was.

The Mando, Rogue One, Rebels are top shelf SW for me, Solo is good, most of the new books are forgettable or downright awful although some of the good ones are really good, and in terms of games there's been one great one, one other good one and two hugely disappointing ones.

I Don’t want to get started on the ST because I've already criticised those films enough, I don't like and wish they didn't exist...but anyways my point being is that new canon has been a real mixed bag so far, with some of the very best and the absolute worst Star Wars ever made, legends had some terrible stuff too but the overall consistency in quality and pure fun was remarkable.

Just my basic thoughts.

 

what she said

 

I'm someone that wasn't even aware that Legends existed. Yeah, I played the Force Unleashed games and original Battlefront 2, but I didn't follow Legends closely and it was only big releases like Force Unleashed, Battlefront 2 that I would care. I didn't watch Clone Wars as it aired, I watched it on Netflix. So, I don't have the attachment to Legends stories. I didn't really no about canon (Legends) stuff, until the Disney purchase and new movies were being made. Disney era is going to be so much more different then when it was under Lucas. That given time I'm not sure it's a fair comparison.

 

Have to disagree with that opinion. Legends had the opportunity to go crazy with its ideas because Lucas never considered them to take place in his films' universe. In other words they had a larger sandbox than canon ever will. Canon, while more consistent and coherent, will forever be restricted by its inability to pave new ground in the universe. Tie-in material is all we've got, and all we're ever gonna get.

I'm really hoping the High Republic is the beginning of the desperately needed change in canon, but I'm not going to hold my breath either.

 

Good point, but I was talking more about the quality than continuity and cohesion. But they're both important.

For example, Battlefront II campaign and Aftermath trilogy had a alot of tie-ins, but they aren't good stories, though I guess that's a matter of opinion :/

One things for sure, Lucasfilm have an impossible balancing act on their hands, regardless of how good content is there will always be loads of people who aren't happy with the new Star Wars.

 

They can always make something non-canon. Video games, I think would stand the most to gain from this. I'd love an SW rpg, but due to canon restrictions, I don't think that's possible.

 

As someone who grew up on SW in the 80s (consuming the movies and comics like a mad child), then, in the 90s, delved into the books/comics and computer games and especially the WEG pen-&-paper SW RPG (which was arguably the single most important shaper of Star Wars lore beyond the films - even more so than most people realize), and who followed closely the SW developments of the 00s, I can say with 100% certainty that the New ("Disney" if you wish) Canon is by FAR the superior outings, overall.

It's NuCanon over OldEU every time for this boy.

 

I'm a lot like you man. Played the old RPG by West End Games back in the 80s when it came out, etc... But we have differing conclusions about the nucannon or whatever it is. LOL And that is totally cool. Hell I was never able to keep up with all of the old EU books, so I'm going back and enjoying them now (just finished the Darth Bane trilogy and wow is that fantastic!).

I have read some of the new stuff. Probably more than I realized until just the other day. Wendig trilogy was... it had some good stuff in it. Tarkin book I loved. Same for the two Rogue One books. Didn't mind the one about Obi Wan and Qui Gone, although I didn't think it was great and was a bit disappointed. The "Resistance Reborn" book for me was awful. I just couldn't get into it.

But it's all good. There is plenty of old stuff for folks to enjoy and new stuff as well.

 

I bid you all dark Greetings.

I do not beat around the bush: I prefer the old EU over the new one.
The old EU felt more free, more creative, less restrictive, more alive.
Sure were was nonsense, like the greeting at the start of my post from the infamous "Jedi Prince" books but for the bad where was good and the bad could lead to way better stories or have the bad stories deconstructed in a good way in other stories.
Not to mention the "Jedi Prince" series didn't do any irreparable damage to the classic characters from the movies.

For example:
The X-Wing book series by Michael A. Stackpole & Aaron Allston, the Thrawn-Trilogy by Timothy Zahn, the "Dark Forces" series of games, the X-Wing and TIE-Fighter flight simulation games weren't just entertaining they had original stories and characters, stories who revolved around something that wouldn't be directly tied to the events of the movies all the time and characters who weren't connected or revolving around the characters of the movies either.

I do not like what happened to Wedge Antilles either. He had his own backstory in the old EU and now he is sharing his partly with the one of Derek "Hobbie" Klivian. Not to mention everything has to be a lot more connected now in the new EU, way more than it was in the Legends EU.

They reintroduced Thrawn very succesfully and I loved this new Thrawn-Trilogy but remember that Timothy Zahn, Thrawns creator is a very good author and probably got a few more liberties than other writers of the new EU.

To make this long story short: The new EU is at the end of the day to constrictive. It needs more freedom and reintroduce old characters and their old adventures.
Also negating the Sequel Trilogy at some point would also be welcome because even Timothy Zahn couldn't write a novel to rescue that cinematic disaster.

 

I like legends more. I realized I don't even dislike the ST, I just find legends superior

 

"Every Jedi Knight has to be their own light, because the light shouldn't go out when one Jedi dies." Anakin Solo.

Any universe that has the Anakin Solo character in it is a universe I want see.