The Last Jedi - General Movie Discussion

I've noticed your 'reliably sourced' industry data had nothing to say about the dramatic downturn in box office between the last two ST films and the first one -- or are box office returns considered conjecture too?

I understand. Audience polls are all fake...box office plummets mean nothing...and Lucasfilm put a halt to future SW movies for now because they just "needed to slow down...the schedule was too fast."

So instead of one film a year, Lucasfilm is now going with one film every.....what? TROS was released in 2019 and it's 2022 now with zero SW feature films on tap for release in 2023 or 2024.

Patt Jenkins' Rogue Squadron has been pushed back and we're told now that Taika Waititi's unknown SW film -- which hasn't even gotten a first draft script written, let alone one approved -- is to be our next feature film. Soooooo maybe, if we're lucky, we'll see it in...2026?? I'll grant you one thing: Seven Years between feature films is certainly 'slowing down' the ol' schedule.

Listen, I can see we're going nowhere with this back-and-forth. You've made it perfectly clear at this point that you're not going to let facts get in the way of your opinion so I'm going to 'bid you adeu' and mosey my way out of this thread. Peace.

 

It's okay to disagree, but I believe I've made a good faith argument. I've presented reliable sourced industry data that companies spend millions on to get right. We're not talking about missing by 5-10 points in a poll. The data showed the reaction to the film was overwhelmingly positive. Where is the reliably sourced industry data saying there was something wrong with the box office or audience tracking? That's basically my point.

 

That's how you'd like to put it. But in actual fact people who didn't like the film have been trying to dictate it since the weekend it came out. In the face of overwhelming critical praise, people that didn't like it declared the movie was divisive before half of its audience even got a chance to see it. (after the initial failed attempt to convince everyone that the movie was universally hated by fans and the critics were out of touch and/or dishonest).

Responding to claims made by other people using cherry picked statistics, anecdotes and sources isn't "trying to dictate". It's just an inevitable response to the specious arguments that people frequently try to impose on any conversation about the film and its impact. You should expect your opinions and the arguments you make to support them to be challenged.

It's been a trend that I never experienced before TLJ came out. But since then a lot of different people on different forums have complained that they are "not allowed to have their opinion" when, for example, they've claimed something in The Last Jedi is without precedent in Star Wars only for someone to show that there is precedent. Or if they are presented with more representative statistics than the one outlier they have selected to prove their point.

--- Double Post Merged, May 22, 2022, Original Post Date: May 22, 2022 ---

Nobody said that. A tiny minority of those who didn't like it are still persisting with the narratives about how the fanbase is split 50/50 that they have been relying on since the days immediately following the film's release.

 

I thought The Last Jedi was the PERFECT conclusion to the whole Star Wars saga.

 

Agree. Broom boy was the perfect ending.

 

Until Snoke comes back...

 

Snoke aint no Sith

 

Well, the CLONE wasn't a Sith, but who knows 'bout the original dude

 

A lot of people I know have decided to act as if TROS doesn't exist, and that the ST ended with TLJ. Maybe one day, I will be able to do that.

 

When the Big Baddie gets killed halfway thru the STs, I can see how that could happen.

 

I once thought as you do.


Back in 1983.


And 2005....

 

I kinda agree and that’s actually one of the ways this movie fails, in my mind. There’s alot of great stuff in this movie. But Johnson was tasked with making the middle film of a trilogy, and dang if he didn’t go and make the conclusion.

 

I've never understood this criticism. What about the ending of TLJ reads as conclusive? I don't get it.

 

For me it's not a criticism, and I think it's not so much that it is 'conclusive', but rather that it works as a somewhat 'open-ended' conclusion which hints at a future we never really have to see. It's got no real cliff-hanger ending that demands it needs a sequel, other than to tell more stories about the good guys fighting the bad guys.

Certain things could be seen as already having reached closure. By the end, Luke is gone, Kylo has tempted Rey to join him and failed, Rey has tried to tempt Kylo back and failed, and now they both go their separate ways, with Rey finding her place with the resistance and Kylo, having dispatched his master, taking his place as Supreme Leader.

And of course we finish with 'broom boy' and the hope of things to one day come.

Sure, there are open-ended story threads and we're left with just a small band of 'rebels', but those just suggest an ongoing battle between the small band of good guys and the might of the bad guys that can take place in our imaginations. There's no need to tell those stories - we just understand that's the way it goes, in true Flash Gordon/pulp sci-fi style, ad infinitum.

In a way, TFA and TLJ combined are potentially like the pilot episode for a series that never gets made. But it still works on its own without that series. It's a set-up, but also self-contained.

In my mind, it works in much the same way as 'A New Hope' worked - to me, the original 'stand alone' movie.

In that film, the Death Star is destroyed and the rebels have won the fight. But the Empire still exists and the bad guy survives to come back another day. But it could have ended there, and there was no expectation of a sequel. It didn't NEED a sequel. And if it hadn't been as successful as it was, there might not have been, and that would have been fine.

TLJ doesn't end as jubilantly, but it's still kind of positive, and ends with 'a new hope'

All I am saying is that for me it works as an ending. If no sequel had ever been made, I would have been happy for it to end there.

 

ANH was a brilliant one film story yet Lucas managed to turn it into a great OT. For all its shortcomings, the PTs were three films that told one compelling story. The ST were about dueling Directors who ended up telling three different stories.

 

The Last Jedi ends with several characters literally telling the audience "This ain't over".

 

I would have been happy to create my own wish fulfilling 'ending' than having to see TROS as 'canon', because even putting aside my personal reasons for disliking it, the film still fails on so many levels. At the end of the day, TROS is one part 'let's get rid of the Skywalkers' and two parts 'let's retcon the previous two films', and has zero substance in itself. I know a lot of people enjoyed it and I respect that (I enjoyed Pride and Prejudice with Zombies after all) , but I agree with the reviewer who described TLJ as a 'steak dinner' and TROS as a hamburger.
Like the final part of GoT the last film seems as if they just wanted to hurry up and get things over with...TLJ had so much promise that went unfulfilled I'm still disappointed five years after the end of the Skywalker saga.

 

Sure, and the adventures can continue in a future episode, if you want to take it literally.

I'm not suggesting TLJ has total closure - just like a ANH doesn't have total closure - but "this ain't over" can just mean they are going to keep on fighting. But that can be just where it's all left. It's not a cliff-hanger needing resolution.

I'm saying that in the absence of a sequel - or even a sequel you want to chose to ignore - TLJ works as a final part, in a way ESB doesn't.