Andor: a Plainspoken Drama Minus Force Mysticism

I missed Star Wars Theory's take on Andor, so thanks for that. I wanted to know if he enjoyed the series or not, since it is a series devoid of Jedi, and I know his favorite films are the Prequels. If I'm correct I think his favorite character is Anakin or Mace Windu. His new animated fan film features Mace Windu.

Plus he is creating his own lightsaber company. Most of his fans or subscribers, constantly ask him when will the lightsabers be ready... haha.

Andor has no Jedi and no lightsabers, so I'm not surprised he disliked it.

I want concrete evidence the studios pay Youtubers to be shills, I haven't come across any yet...

For me, I enjoyed Andor even though it was devoid of Jedi, which is my favorite part of the franchise, my favorite character is OB1; anyway with that said, the franchise should touch on other subjects beside the Jedi. I had no problem with Andor, even though I believe Luthen is a former Jedi, not some super spy, or an archeologist like Indiana Jones.

Star Wars Theory's buddy, I unsubscribed from that joker's channel a long time ago, but I'm still subscribed to Theory. I don't agree with everything he says, but he isn't as annoying as his buddy. Nerd Theory, the Batman and Robin of Star Wars fandom... haha.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 9, 2023, Original Post Date: Feb 9, 2023 ---

I just want to remind all those fans out there that dislike Kathleen Kennedy and believe she should be removed, that this so-called masterpiece of a series was created under her watch... Mando fanatics should also be reminded of this as well.

It has nothing to do with being a child, an adult, Manchild, or the new term I'm hearing lately Cadult. Its purely subjective, whether you like Andor or not is purely a subjective matter.

I know adults that read hard sci-fi like Asimov and Herbert that found Andor boring and too slow paced.

I love slow burn sci-fi, so maybe that's one of the reasons, I enjoyed Andor. I watched the entire series 3x, and I continue to watch certain episodes here and there.

For me, its not a masterpiece. Its just a good series, which is purely subjective on my part. If you find Andor to be a masterpiece that is fine too.

Also, Rogue One is my favorite Disney Star Wars film... no Jedi... haha.

 

First off, @jan blakstar , welcome to The Cantina, great post and as you look around here, you'll find many of us are all-in with you on Andor, and we have had a couple of similar "debates" with a small few here who only have silly, non-sensical criticisms, and a couple of legit detractors who simply don't see Andor as their cup o' tea.

Regarding SW Theory, he seems to be playing to a particular audience, and he's just a bit to Bro-tastic for me personally. I have had an awakening when it comes to YT recently, and not sure about the studios doing so, bit there is indeed a toxic presence that is encouraging negativity and divisive hate speech. Not saying SWT is involved but it seems some of his audience tends to lean that way. For me, I stick to ScreenCrush, SW Explained, Sith Council, and SWNN has a new crew and they're a couple of cool dudes.

Back to Andor, I agree with you that it is a masterpiece, and I'm seriously hoping the Powers That Be keep giving us the occasional gritty adult look and feel that Tony Gilroy and his folks have gifted us. I do love lightsabers and levitating rocks but I firmly believe there is plenty of room in the GFFA for stories without the magic. It only further shows exactly how special and mystical those things truly are.

 

My heart is warmed by this thread. I am an absolute Andor lover. Have watched it 3X through and several scenes at least 20+ times.

what is interesting about all this is….remember one of the early scenes in ANH, when Luke gets so excited asking 3PO “you know of the rebellion against the empire?!” ….I was intrigued by that as a kid and have always wanted a rebellion origin story. Of all the SW series I was most awaiting for Andor and hoped against hope it would be good. And man, did it deliver. My most fave SW content on streaming by far.

Luthen’s monologue is just perfection. The best written scene in all of SW , IMO. Bravo Tony Gilroy and Beau Willimon….

 

The main reason I don't consider Andor a masterpiece is mainly because we just got the first season.

I have a strange feeling, if season 2 doesn't live up to the fanbase's expectations, they'll start bashing the entire series altogether, I've seen it done before on this forum, so I will never say this is the best Star Wars thing ever.

Its frustrating to see someone pore over something day to day, and once they don't get what they want, or expect, the content has now become trash. I always laugh to myself when I read someone say this the best Star Wars thing ever... haha.

If Ahsoka, Acolyte, or Skeleton crew is good for some, they will say this is the best Star Wars thing ever... haha. ( I mean everyone is entitled to their own opinions but I reserve that for something truly special, which I understand the Andor series has done for many. I just can't wait in 2 YEARS how attitudes will change... its will be hilarious to say the least.

Now the Mandalorion with every season it gets better than the previous, so if this happens with Andor I'll say its a masterpiece of a series, but not until then.

Yes he is playing his audience, its so obvious... SWTs rise to fame was when he was having twitter wars with Pablo Hildalgo, LFL executive and consultant. Muscle head actually broke down in tears on his show... He really played his audience, some did not see him as muscle bound bone head but someone who truly cares about Star Wars and the fanbase... haha, SWT is crying all the way to the bank.

Screencrush and Star Wars Explained are for me, great youtubers, but I have a problem with Kristian Harloff, Sith Council, a fellow New Yorker, in the past he has done some shady things which I can never forget, for example, when Star Wars: A New Dawn, written by John Jackson Miller was released,

Harloff had gotten the book weeks before the street date. He stated the book was really good and encouraged everyone to rush out and get it, so that is why I bought it;

however, when other critics read the book, and said it was really bad. Harloff stated that he never said that the book was good, so he pushed the book because he has a relationship with the publisher

and gets books first, but after actual critics read the book and says its bad, he turns around and says he never said the book was good,

but thats why I bought the book. Because you said over and over again on several shows that it was good.

He has done this since he's been on AMC with John Campea.

John Campea for me, is really successful because when he is wrong he say so, but Harloff is two-faced, maybe he has changed over the years, but I will never forget all the lies..

 

Oh, wow I had no idea about the SWT/Hidalgo feud or the Harloff thing... I have a personal thing about anyone getting into a "beef" with someone like Hidalgo, or all the excessive criticism of KK... These folks work to gift us with content. We are consumers. Yes, we can have opinions, criticisms, etc... BUT we have no business to expect those feelings to influence the product. I know I'm an exception to the norm, but I'm grateful for anything the studio puts out, whether it's to my liking or not. Sorry not sorry, but TPM is unwatchable for me most of the time. I'm grateful for the story, lore and the fact that it gave the next generation a new and exciting SW to call their own. But parts of that film, I will always fast fwd through. I see no reason to pine on and on about 'what they shoulda done'. It's what we got and I love it for what it is. Book of Boba Fett, lackluster, meandering and sorta feels unfinished. But I love it for it's place in the Galaxy. Anyway, me and John Jameson are rambling on a bit, so... Back on track. I get the whole YouTube dynamic. It's all about the numbers... SWT has some interesting things, there are far more unlikable SW channels out there. Not hating on him, he just doesn't charge my motivator. Harloff just strikes me as the kind of guy I might hang with and he has some fun convos... I didn't know about the book thing, honestly doesn't bother me if he was hyping for a friend...meh. ScreenCrush- Ryan makes me laugh often and it's void of any controversy or negativity for the most part. Honestly, the new guys here on SWNN, Brian & Paul are working to put on some cool content. I hope they will up the output but I partook in the last couple of livestreams and enjoyed it. SW Explained, just simply, I know so many people like them I have to enjoy their stuff. Hey, they're a couple of nerds from Atlanta, so it's a Southern Thing, y'all wouldn't understand.

Oh yeah, @Rogues1138 I'm tellin you, Andor Season 2 is gonna be incredible! I don't care if half of the new characters are sock puppets, the series as a whole will be one of the best SW stories EVER. How much am I willing to wager?

 

HAHA... GREAT POST.

Filmmaking is really difficult, its not as easy as it looks. I appreciate, respect filmmakers, LFL crew members, and employees that bring joy to my life with their content. I feel priviledged to be a fan.

I wasn't a fan of youtube until I discovered all my favorite artist were on there, showing their audience how they draw and paint, instant art school at home or on the go! I was hooked! My other passion is film, so I came across all the Star Wars youtubers, including Mike ZZERO. What I enjoyed about Star Wars Explained is that he reads every book ( sometimes I wondered, was he just listening to the audiobooks? Audiobooks is one of his sponsors, or was he a speed reader? he certainly got the books weeks before release, he is a maester of Star Wars lore).

SWT, some of his videos are good, but some of the things he says I don't agree with. Star Wars has made him a wealthy man, and the ladies love him. One thing I respect about him, is that he is a martial artist, and he can handle a lightsaber well. I take Filipino martial arts myself, so that is one of the reasons I love the Jedi, sword fighting, etc. I got Hasbos Pulse premium Star Wars the Black series Obi-Wan Force FX Elite lightsaber last year, which is sweet. SWT is manufacturing his own line of lightsabers, so I'm subscribed to see how that turns out.

Harloff on the other hand, just comes off as fake. I think on his quest to becoming a comedian, or Hollywood mega-star he fell into the nerd forest... but he isn't one of us cool guy to have a couple of beers with...

at times it seems like he is making stuff up, or doesn't really quite know... John Campea was never afraid to say, he loved Man of Steel and stood by that even though it was a divisive film.

When Harloff used to talk about the Man of Steel, it seems like he read some critics review, that doesn't care for superhero movies, as if he is some sort of critic himself... ( now on the new John Campea show, after all these years Harloff loves the Man of Steel... you can't make this stuff up its hilarious) maybe he has changed, only time I watch him is when he is a guest on John Campea's show.

Knowing that he is a part of the Sith council doesn't appeal to me at all. I used to watch his Star Wars show years ago mostly for other host that were on his show.

I know he is pals with SWNN so I might give him another chance... who knows.

Will Andor season 2 be any good? Maybe... hehe.

 

I disagree with you wholeheartedly. One, I don't think "Andor" was perfect. Yes, it was a good series, but I believe it had its flaws, especially in writing and pacing. Yet, because so many have tried to push this idea that it was flawless or nearly flawless, it has become one of the most OVERRATED television shows in my eyes, hands down. Also, just because a Star Wars project lack the topic of spiritual or mysticism, doesn't mean it is superior to one that does. If you cannot deal with the idea of the Force or any kind of mysticism in a Star Wars movie, then I can only suggest that you try another sci-fi/fantasy saga. Why you had stuck with Star Wars for so long is a mystery to me, if you're going to praise "Andor" for not having any mention of the Force, spiritualism or mysticism. And the idea that those Star Wars fans who prefer the lack of mysticism in "Andor" are the only mature ones within the fandom is extremely condescending and insulting to me and those who don't have a problem with the Force as part of the saga.

 

Are there that many people calling Andor "flawless"? I haven't heard that once to be honest.

It's clear that for a good portion of the Andor audience it has been far more satisfying and rewarding for them than the best of what D+ has offered thus far, Star Wars-wise. I can totally understand if a similar number of fans feel the opposite to that though.

I don't believe that Andor audiences are condescending and insulting in general. Inevitably though, people that feel somewhat left out of the Andor appreciation sometimes have a tendency to validate their non-plussage by pointing out what Andor is not and how that fails to satisfy their SW needs. That kind of perfectly valid analysis is always going to stimulate a less than constructive discussion. Whether that was the intent or not.

I warned that there is danger, with every D+ release, for those who approve of the latest thing to say "This is the way" at the expense of the previous things. I don't think that's what most people genuinely think. (And I don't think SW is looking for its basic new form or paradigm anyway.) But it's an easy notion to ponder and to express. Likewise it's easy to say "Star Wars is always like this and doesn't work or isn't SW otherwise." Both sentiments are undue.

 

As one of the "Accused" in relation to being condescending or insulting... Firstly I do want to clarify a simple fact. That's not who I am, it's not who anyone else being referenced seems to be either. Personally, if I want to insult or "talk down" to someone, I PROMISE there will be no question to my words. I like a good-natured, hearty debate. That is only interesting to me if the other side has valid and tangible points. There are some folks here that I may not share the same thoughts with, but we can have interesting conversation. They aren't going to scream that I'm trying to "change their mind" or insult them. In fact, my mind has been changed due to some conversations I've been in here, and I see it as a positive thing. If someone changes your mind against your will, that's "brainwashing" I'm sure as he'll not gonna continue in a place if that's being done to me.

What I consider to be insulting and condescending is statements such as, "If you cannot deal with... then you should..." "If you don't see things my way, I suggest you try some other saga..." "Why you had stuck with Star Wars for so long is a mystery to me, if you're going to..."

We are here for our own reasons. There is no reason we can't have adult conversations, even debate without sinking to the level of becoming defensive and passive aggressive. Star Wars has differing meaning and personal impact for each of us, so naturally we feel more about it and it does become part of who we are. But we all love it enough to come here and discuss it. Isn't that enough of a common ground for us to all be friends first and have the back and forth just be fluff? Nothing here is personal. If it become so, I have faith in the 1030th to step in and squash it. I've seen them do it. I've read old threads and I know there is a reason most of those toxic posters are not around anymore. A couple newbs have flown through here lately and been told with a quickness, this isn't the place for BS. They gone.

So now, in the interest of building a bridge...
@DeeRush I'm gonna call you out, but in a GOOD way. Any and every bit of animosity, and every little silly grapple between us has bugged me to my core because it's just not my nature. You have frustrated me, and I have angered you. I read every post you make because I want to find some common ground. It just seems like more often than not, you interject into a conversation in a confrontational stance. I hope you don't come here just to cause chaos, I don't think you do, because I've seen you make some valid and sincere points, even if they have sometimes been bookends by insincere comments... You strike me as the type of SW fan that can make me think of certain things differently, and that is more than half the reason I'm here! There are people here like @Lock_S_Foils @Angelman @DarthSnow @Villainous @Rogues1138 @Choose Light @Darth Derringer these are folks that, for the most part, all have the same basic thoughts and feelings on SW as I do. I have had incredible convos with them on so many things through threads, profile posts, direct conversations... but after a certain point, if we all agree on something, it's like, yup. Yup. Uh huh. Crickets... I want opposing views too. It's not to hard to see another DeeRush post and just say, "aw, to hell with her..." But that's not who I am and not what this place is to me. So. @DeeRush, I am in no way telling, asking or suggesting that you change your views, opinions, or feelings about SW, Andor, me, or anyone else. I would love it if you could maybe play a little bit nicer and don't feel like anyone is going after you personally. Participate in the conversations. Throw a few "Likes" around. This is a great community and they have absolutely enhanced my day to day. If that's what you're here for, I got your back.

Cool?

 

I have.

Throw a few "Likes" around? Why? Why can't some people just accept that not everyone is going to agree on everything? Why is that so hard for some of you to accept? The reason I keep disagreeing with so many of you is that I rarely come across posts that I agree with. I have encountered comments on other Internet sites, forums and message boards with people disagreeing with my opinions. But I try not to make any effort to lecture them about not agreeing with me. This kind of activity strikes me as some form of censorship. Is it really that important that everyone agrees on the same thing? Is it really verboten for members of this message board to express disagreement with some of the opinions posted here? Especially in regard to movies and shows that are popular? Why can't you just accept that not everyone is going to agree with you without any lectures or bashing?

 

Have there really been that many people , proportionate to the fandom, in general, going round demanding others accept that the show is flawless? I just don't see it. No problem if you want to argue with anyone who does that. But it's just not true that Andor critics are bombarded with insults or condescensio, any more than any other reaction gets a re-creation.

I say the same thing to people who believe that them not liking a SW film or show means they get to repeat ad nauseum that the franchise is dead/broken/destroyed etc.

People who enjoyed the sequels have been called everything from shills to liars and fake fans for this reason. Had to endure "campaigns" to get the movies "deleted" etc. I find it hard to really have much sympathy for people claiming that there's too much praise going round for a SW show or film. The reactions to Andor are a drop in the ocean compared to that.

Is this supposed to be a compelling counter argument to the people praising Andor too much for your liking? Besides being an obvious strawman, it seems to be blatantly hypocritical.

Or are we even on the insults and condescension now?

My advice is not to waste time picking beefs with people for enjoying something you don't. I don't go to Clone Wars threads to complain about the praise heaped on it by those that love that series. And I expect I would be told I don't get it, recommended to look elsewhere or get with it in order to enjoy it if I expresses my disagreement strongly enough.

 

Noted. We know that you do not like Andor. I have no problem that you do not like Andor.

 

Sorry for this parenthesis.

First of all, I don't know nothing about SWT channel or others. I don't follow any and am not much into this youtube debates. Am happy here with you and a couple of Facebook groups.

I always have considered Hidalgo as the "lucky guy", who came from nowhere and entered there for knowing all (or a lot) from SW, as a million other could know. A dream of milions.
But he was the choosen one and he has been lucky enough to work in LF and in a lot of SW projects (movies, shows, books, games...) with giving final opinions and advices and influencing projects with his understanding of the worldbuilding.
But certainly is that the last years I find him so arrogant and rude with a lot of delusions of grandeur. He thinks he is Lucas himself and he thinks what he says is law.
And for me, as a consultant, creative executive and lore advisor, has contributed with good ideas but also he is responsible for some of the worst and bad decisions made in Obi-Wan, Boba Fett even Willow shows.
Of course emotions are for sharing! In fact, emotions not shared become pain inside. Don't know what the... is talking about.

Sorry, I had to share it, You know, is an emotion I had inside.

 

There are a ton of Star Wars You tube shows, one I forgot to mention which I've followed for years is Hello Greedo. He has a new born child so he hasn't put out as much videos as he has in the past.

He is one of those you-tubers that like the Empire side of things which is cool. I think he is a fan of Andor as well, I haven't watched him lately but I believe this from his past videos.

As a fan of the Jedi and the force, I would like to watch Star Wars content, that delve into other subjects; for example, the smugglers. I'd like to watch a show on smugglers shipping spice as Han Solo mentioned he did for Jabba the Hutt, or a show on the Tie-fighters or Rogue Squadron. One of my favorite Star Wars books recently is Alphabet Squadron by Alexander Freed which focuses on a secret Tie-fighter division that the New Republic pilots are chasing, led my Hera Syndulla. Freed also wrote the adaptation to Rogue One: A Star Wars Story. I really enjoy his writing style. ( Rogue One kind of cheated, because Darth Vader was a former JEDI... HAHA)

There is so such to love in the Star Wars Galaxy...

 

I never said that I disliked "Andor". I said that I liked it, but I didn't love it. And when I had pointed out what I believed were some of the series' flaws, so many of you made such a big stink about it. It seemed as if you couldn't stand the idea that there were Star Wars fans who didn't automatically love "Andor". And I'm wondering why some of you are incapable of tolerating a difference of opinion. I didn't realize that censorship was the name of the game in the Star Wars fandom.

 

I am noting and tolerating your difference of opinion.