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Character Archetypes

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by Count Poodoo, Apr 10, 2015.

  1. Count Poodoo

    Count Poodoo Clone Commander

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    Now that a good portion of TFA's plot has been "spoiled" it is clear what Disney has in store for us on December 18, 2015. I must say, knowing what we know now, that I am somewhat disappointed in the direction that they choose. However, before I go any further allow me to preface that disappointment and throw some positives your way.

    "Positives"
    1. JJ Abrams is the best director that a Star Wars movie has ever had. I mean that (purely) in terms of handling action, humor, suspense, drama, of putting you on a roller coaster ride and making you "feel" something, Abrams is the most skilled of the four men who've held that chair. (See: LOST Pilot, MI3, ST09, STID, etc.)

    2. Larry Kasdan is the best screenwriter that a Star Wars movie has ever had. I don't actually need to elaborate on this one. (Just See: Raiders of Lost Ark, Empire Strikes Back, Body Heat, The Big Chill, Return Of The Jedi, The Accidental Tourist, etc.)

    3. Kathleen Kennedy!! It would not be an understatement at all to say that Kathleen Kennedy produced my childhood. Virtually every single film that defined my youth she was involved with. I could list her credits here but they are too numerous (and would absolutely blow your mind.) Just know that of the "big three" (Abrams, Kasdan, Kennedy) she is by far the most accomplished. Go to her Wikipedia page, please.

    4.
    Special Effects. This time out we are going to get the right combination of practical and CGI. (I'm looking at you AOTC!) What I've seen so far looks great. JJ did an excellent job of seamlessly balancing the two (practical and CGI) on both Trek films. The GFFA is going to look and feel "real" again, and I can't wait!

    5. John WIlliams

    6. Cast. Max Von Sydow, Domhnall Gleeson, Adam Driver, Oscar Isaac, Andy Serkis, and Gwen Christie are all top flight actors. I haven't seen Daisy Ridley and John Boyega yet, but I've heard really good things. The original cast needs no plaudits from me! They'll be awesome as always.


    Now on to the critical stuff...

    Daisy Ridley (Kira) = Luke Skywalker. Daisy begins the movie scratching out a meager existence on an outer rim desert planet, while hoping to one day escape and make a difference in the galaxy. Sound familiar? (Luke, Anakin, yada, yada). She is (likely) part of that powerful Skywalker bloodline, and like her two predecessors she'll go on her heroes journey, all while being tempted by the dark side of the force. Fine, I expected this. But to have it literally be: naive kid, desert planet, meager existence, heir to magical bloodline/ chosen one, family member turned evil (Kylo Ren), confronts this - grows up and saves the day. It's very 1 to 1. And yet despite that, I'd accept this generally if the rest of the movie seemed a little different. But...

    Kylo Ren = Darth Vader/ Anakin Skywalker A young brooding force-sensitive kid (likely Skywalker heir) played by hip heartthrobish actor (Christensen / Driver) is manipulated by evil Sith-type dude (Palpatine/ Uber) into becoming "evil." Eventually both wear black masks, black outfits, black capes, and wield red lightsabers while serving the Empire against their former allies/ family.

    Domhnall Gleeson (The General) = Tarkin. This next sentence could describe both men: A determined intellectual Imperial leader (from Europe) with thin body type and chiseled cheekbones who is proud of their "superweapon." Eventually both go "down with the ship" and die in the first film of their trilogy.

    Uber = Emperor Sheev Palpatine. A mysterious, all-powerful, evil entity who manipulates everyone from behind the scenes. We don't know much about Uber (is he Plaugueis?) but we do know he is the Palpatine of this trilogy.

    BB-8 = R2-D2. A likable astromech-type droid who winds up on a desert planet with information vital (lightsaber) to the rebellion/republic and eventually runs into our hero (Kira) and in doing so sets her on her adventure.

    Finn = C3PO. Ok, follow me here. A somewhat cowardly but kind-hearted individual who starts the film on a ship and eventually escapes and crash lands on a desert planet. Also, in possession of vital information (The Catapult). He makes his way across the desert and eventually meets Kira, and (like BB-8) also helps set her on her adventure.

    Captain Phasma = Boba Fett. A cool, but mysterious soldier (mercenary?) who remains just mysterious enough that we (the fandom) turn her into a cult figure, and demand a spin-off film!

    Max Von Sydow (The Vicar) = Owen & Beru. A kindly old man who watches out for Rey (Kira). Like Owen & Beru he ends up getting killed by the Empire in their search for the "MacGuffin" (lighsaber). Or in Owen & Beru's case, "the droids."

    Chewbacca = Chewbacca

    Millenium Falcon = Millenium Falcon

    Stormtroopers = Stormtropers

    Queen Leia = General Dodonna. An older veteran presence and well-respected military leader of the "Alliance" who is planning her own counter-attack on The Empire's latest "superweapon." Just like Dodonna, Leia is holed up with X-Wing pilots on Yavin IV.


    Here's where things get a little more interesting...

    Poe Dameron = Han Solo/ Princess Leia. Like Solo, Dameron is a handsome, cocky, swaggering pilot. Like Leia (in ANH), he is the only one of the new big 3 who is already dedicated to the cause. And like Leia, he serves as the romantic interest of our new lead (Kira).

    Rose = Yoda. A small, wise, alien creature of unknown origin with a quirky personality who is apparently very powerful with the force.

    Han Solo/ Luke Skywalker = Obi-Wan Kenobi. The Obi-Wan Kenobi "mentor" role is split between two people in The Force Awakens (and in Luke's case, VII). Han is the legendary grey-haired General of the previous generation, who guides and mentors our new group of heroes, and who sacrifices himself to save them at the end of the film. Luke is a legendary Jedi Knight from a previous generation who grows a beard and hides out in a cave waiting to train the next "chosen one" to battle the evil forces of Uber and The Empire. (And potentially face and redeem a family member who has fallen to the dark side...)

    The Catapult = The Death Star. Evil superweapon of today meets evil superweapon of yesteryear.


    In conclusion, I believe that The Force Awakens has a chance to be the best, slickest made Star Wars film (except for The Empire Strikes Back, which will never be topped) ever. However, I am somewhat disappointed that Disney is relying so heavily on A New Hope's core character types and story outline. I hope we don't get a "soft" remake (of ANH) come December 18...
     
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  2. MarsPhoenix

    MarsPhoenix Sith Psychiatrist

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    I think Finn & Rey will both represent two sides of Luke from ANH...

    Confusing us in trying to figure out who of the two will step up as the new Jedi hero at the end.
     
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  3. Talon Karrde

    Talon Karrde Rebel Official

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    It will be.
    It WILL be.
     
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  4. Count Poodoo

    Count Poodoo Clone Commander

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    Perhaps. But I have little doubt that "Rey" (Kira) is this trilogy's main hero. I don't even believe that Finn is force-sensitive. This is Kira's story. Finn's arc will be to transform from C3PO to Han Solo over the course of the trilogy. Kira's arc is to save the galaxy.

    It's really looking that way...
     
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  5. Duke Groundrunner

    Duke Groundrunner Rebel Official

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    Are you trying to make me feel sad?
     
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  6. Talon Karrde

    Talon Karrde Rebel Official

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    No, amigo, I just see the writing on the wall. It's Jason Ward's wall, but, still.. the wall..:(
     
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  7. Duke Groundrunner

    Duke Groundrunner Rebel Official

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    I just want a movie that is more or less original and not a soft remake/reboot of a movie i've been watching for over twenty years. Ten years just to end up with that would be saddening.
     
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  8. p03

    p03 Human/Cyborg Relations

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    Kira / Rey whatever her name is will not be in love with Poe - Especially if she is a Jedi
     
  9. Count Poodoo

    Count Poodoo Clone Commander

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    Well, I guess my point (long winded as it was) is that The Force Awakens is looking increasingly like a soft remake of A New Hope. It you go through all the archetypes and plot points I listed above, there is a lot of narrative symmetry there. That doesn't mean it won't be an excellent, thrilling film. Just that it will be somewhat derivative. It can be both.
     
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  10. Talon Karrde

    Talon Karrde Rebel Official

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    I think Dameron is probably more equal to Wedge Antilles.
     
  11. Cmdr. Ed Straker

    Cmdr. Ed Straker Rebel Official

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    In Europe it will maybe flop, Boba Fett is not so popular oversea, trust me.
    Times and the audience have changed and even if Star Wars is written on the top it doesn't change much.
    I have the gut feeling, that nobody would care about a Boba Fett Spin Off movie in Europe.
    Personally I would like to see it, if it's well made, but I think I'am in the minority. (in germany)
     
    #11 Cmdr. Ed Straker, Apr 11, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2015
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  12. Talon Karrde

    Talon Karrde Rebel Official

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    I'm totally with you. It really seemed like something original was in the works up until late 2014.. Then things really started to fall into place. I can't remember at what point it clicked regarding what this really was.. I know for sure, though, that weekend in February when the 'No Luke' bomb dropped was the deal sealer. That friday i didn't believe it; by monday morning I was posting this rant:
    http://thecantina.starwars7news.com/index.php?posts/51591/
    Man, that music really is sad.:(
     
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  13. Talon Karrde

    Talon Karrde Rebel Official

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    Curious, why is he not so popular over there?
     
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  14. Cmdr. Ed Straker

    Cmdr. Ed Straker Rebel Official

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    Hard to describe, I think we europeans are just different.
    Star Wars is a inherent part of the pop culture in the U.S.
    Sure it's popular here too, but not a inherent part of our pop culture.
    The James Bond franchise is bigger here, I think Star Wars is like a new Tom Cruise movie to most of the europeans. (french/german/italian/spanish)
    I'am not so sure about the U.K.
    Overall viewed the spin off movies will not be well received in europe. (They want Darth Vader and not Boba Fett)
    I would like to see a spin off about Vader during Ep. III and IV, doing is thing, searching and hunting Jedis, going berserk and wreck havoc in a Galaxy far away.
    Tastes are different, nonetheless the Spin Off's, if they are well made will be a huge success in the U.S.

    Edit: I told some friends about "Rogue One" and they said "meh" a spin off about fighter pilots, Top Gun in space - boring.
    The people in my country are not enthusiastic.
    They don't want nothing new, they want the old stuff in a new packing and I must admit that I want partially the same.
     
    #14 Cmdr. Ed Straker, Apr 11, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2015
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  15. Talon Karrde

    Talon Karrde Rebel Official

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    Yeah, but, is there any particular cultural idea that makes Boba Fett a turn-off? Is it the bounty hunting thing? The costume?
     
  16. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    I like your list of positives and your negatives points are all valid but I still hold out a lot of hope for this movie (maybe it's because I'm generally an optimist). In the broad outline of the rumors there are a lot of similarities to ANH, however we don't know the fine details. Those fine details can make the 2 movies feel similar yet different. I think if the movie is well written and well executed it can still be a great movie.

    This is just splitting hairs but I think you are slightly wrong about Rey. I agree she is tha "Luke" of this movie and I'm glad to see the main hero being a female. I think a lot of your comparisons between the two are correct except one. I don't see her as "hoping to get off the planet and make a difference in the galaxy" as Luke did. I think Rey is likely satisfied with her life and finds herself getting forced into action when she ends up with BB-8 and meeting Finn and if the rumors about the scene in Rose's pub are right is a fairly reluctant to initially get involved. But again that is just splitting hairs.

    As I said earlier I think there is a really good chance that thisis a great movie even if there are a lot of similarities to ANH and when we see the fine details of movie that tie the big picture together, it may not be as similar as it currently appears.
     
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  17. Count Poodoo

    Count Poodoo Clone Commander

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    I suppose that I was just attempting to vent my frustrations that The Force Awakens is so analogous to A New Hope.

    Anyone who has followed this process from Arndt to Kasdan to Storyboard to Mizzlewump to MSW, knows that we (the fandom) had great hopes for something new and epic. Instead it really appears that they are just simulating A New Hope. The most exasperating thing is that by doing so they are just minimizing the achievements of the characters in the previous six films. Obi-Wan was hiding in a cave with his beard waiting to train "the chosen one" (Luke) to slay the Sith and save the galaxy so that no one else ever had to hide in a cave with their beard to train- OOOPS- here we go again! Luke's generation failed, the Empire is still strong, and now Luke's the one in a cave with his beard,* waiting to train the new chosen one.

    I really wanted to explore the origin of the force, introduce new factions, and more interesting, morally "grey" type characters,... I wanted to see Leia compromised by politics and wealth, Han by age and responsibility, and Luke terrified that if he doesn't figure out the true nature and origin of the force that everything could collapse again....A new generation that's more cynical than the last, but also more honest about the state of the galaxy....and a new threat that's larger and far different than the galaxy has ever faced before.

    Or, we just hit the reset button, and we are right back to A New Hope. The movie itself will likely be very well done, but honestly the core story just looks like more of the same.

    * I know neither likely technically lived in a "cave," I was merely being dramatic.
     
  18. Rieekan

    Rieekan SWNN Hawkeye
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    Take a look into charcter relalted threads. We constantly debate how and who is related to previous characters, some want clones or revived Siths.
    Some ingredients of EU are wanted and connections to the first 6movies.
    I wonder, how original and open to new stuff we as a fanbase are.
     
    #18 Rieekan, Apr 11, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2015
  19. Count Poodoo

    Count Poodoo Clone Commander

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    I have, trust me. That's been a lot of the fun of this process leading up to the film - The speculation. But now it seems to be very much an attack of "A New Hope" clone. There are many ways that it could go, but to my mind the major criteria to judge this are....is the film unique or original, and is it well made? Sometimes it's both, sometimes it's neither, and sometimes it's one or the other....

    There are four primary combinations:

    Original & Well Done (The Original Trilogy)
    Original & Poorly Done (The Prequel Trilogy)
    Unoriginal & Well Done (The Force Awakens*)
    Unoriginal & Poorly Done (The Holiday Special)

    * I do hope I'm wrong about that...
     
  20. Suspiria

    Suspiria Rebel Official

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    I think that once we actually see the film, it will be different from ANH than we thought. And I don't think the characters will be carbon copies of previous characters, as well.
     
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