Could TFA have worked without Starkiller Base?

Because Starkiller Base mirrored the Deathstar from ANH it left a bitter taste on people like me.

A forced retreat by being damaged would have sufficed to break the ANH-mirroring chain.

A Cuba-Crisis like situation with an First Order Strike Fleet or some kind of "nuklear" strike ship which would be sacrificed but would deal a big enough blow to the Republic would have been nice. Some kind of cold war fear situation.

Its quiet the waste of movie and story possibility to blow up such a big thread. I know the movie needed some victory over the First Order but at least Hux and Co. evacuated in time.

 

A different planet killing weapon I think might have worked, maybe an updated Mass Shadow Generator or something like it.

I do think SK base served one important purpose that would have been hard to demonstrate otherwise. It illustrates the time, commitment, and faith that the First Order has invested in itself and it's ideas and it gives us the elimination of the Republic and the Senate as a major actor in the ST. It probably took longer to build SK base than any of the Death Stars. And that they could fire it with such ease, knowing that billions would be killed, based on your ideas of "order" demonstrates a level of faith (or perhaps indoctrination) that better helps us understand why Finn wants to run away from them so bad, and why we should be afraid of them. They don't mind spilling the blood of billions as the cost of perpetuating their ideas.

Also with no Republic around in any significant capacity, it eliminates the possibility of a quick decisive military campaign against the First Order. We have to remember that the Galactic Republic defeated the Empire. The First Order represented a faction of the Empire, not the whole of it. In a head to head battle, it's likely that the Republic and Resistance makes quick work of the FO (if somehow the Republic could have been coaxed into war).

So yes they needed a device (literally and figuratively) to take out the Republic, but they also needed to show how committed they are. Perhaps killing billions of people would be enough, and we didn't need to see them terra-form a planet into a weapon

 

Why would the movie need a planet killing weapon in the first place? This would still end up being a remake of the Death Star. Why was a remake of the Death Star needed? Why was it necessary to "take out" the New Republic in the first place? And in this manner?

 

While the First Order did seem to reach their anti-Republic goals despite losing their base to the Resistance, the base seemed, for me, to underscore something else I'm not sure was entirely intended:

the obvious futility of this destructive pattern, first on the Empire's part, and now with the First Order.

Snoke would have known, from his apparent awareness of galactic history, this was a thing doomed to fail at some point. Or was that the point? He had to know the Resistance would at least have to try to defend against the base.

That Snoke does not seem the least bit fazed at the end of The Force Awakens is perhaps telling of his disposition toward the vaporized planetary menace.

Was this simply a means to an end, the goal of which, having apparently been achieved in routing the New Republic leadership? Or does the First Order have something else they'll unveil from the Unknown Regions?

Han's comments to Ben/Kylo about Snoke using him seem rather relevant here, not only with Ben but also Snoke's possible use of the First Order.

Perhaps the First Order, in Snoke's eyes, is simply an expendable means for him to get closer to his actual goal, whatever that is. Immortality? Skywalker?

Is it possible Snoke secretly believed this Hosnian System atrocity was the only way to get Skywalker's attention and have him come out of hiding, even as he was concerned over Luke's return and the resurgence of Jedi?

Or is it simpler than that: Snoke, possibly living off of the Dark Side itself, draws actual sustenance from such devastation.

Hopefully in Episode VIII there can be some clarification about that.

JediMasterRobert

 

I agree with this post. There's a lot, LOT, more going on behind the scenes that will be revealed in Episode 8. I believe that for all the major characters: Finn, Rey, Luke, Snoke, Kylo Ren, Phasma. That said, I do think the Starkiller Base was too much a rehash compared to ANH, but it really does get across how absolutely batshit the First Order is and I'm not sure what type of act could've replaced such destruction.

 

Nope. It could not.

 

It's interesting to see you bring up this idea because something occurred to me when I saw the film again today. In Lost Stars, they did a pretty good job of discussing/reasoning within the characters' minds why they would build a 2nd Death Star. It basically boils down to arrogance. They always think they can do a better job than the last, not make the mistakes of the last and bigger will be better. As an audience I get why people consider it a rehash, but in-world it makes sense to me. Even in our own world there have always been examples of people taking something and building upon it. Now if they do it again for Episode 9, then there's a problem but I'm more fine with the base every time I see the movie.

 

The Star-Killer base angle(plot) seemed to me more of a sub-plot/B story of the whole movie.
The opening crawl stressed how LUKE SKYWALKER was the main purpose of the whole #%*+ing film .

Really; its Star WARS not Lord of the Rings or Game of Throwns. So small groups of people waving light sabers may have entrained a few hard core fans it's not like huge CGI $$$ space battles.
Honestly, I'd prefer a few scenes explaining the 30-34 year span. How did the First Order form? How did Snoke gain control? Why did Han Solo split? Ben turning to the dark side doesn't seem to really cover all of it. Was Luke's new Jedi Order doomed to fail? How did Leia stay in charge for so long knowing Darth Vader was really her father?
Why couldn't the Galaxy maintain a stronger peace?

The Force Awakens was in a few ways, a 2 HR trailer, as my one friend stated. The Star Killer plot seemed more of a distraction than a real important part of the story line.

 

the deathstar II was a subplot. Return of the Jedi could have worked without the superweapon, but the emperor still needed a throne room.

 

I guess you could see it as part of an overarching theme the movie tried to sell. TFA was really mostly about legacy: whereas Kylo Ren was the embodiment of Darth Vader's legacy, the destruction of the New Jedi Order was Luke's legacy, and Jakku was pretty much a legacy of the Galactic Civil War as a whole (I mean, you can't really get much more obvious than having a graveyard of ships litter the planet floor of wars waged in the past) - it's not really a stretch to assume Starkiller Base represented a symbolic legacy of the previous Death Stars, much like the First Order which was founded on the Empire's legacy alone. For me, it was a movie about dealing with the long-term consequences of the OT, of what people left behind. So, I'm (mostly) fine with SKB being included in the movie - to be fair, it wasn't even much of a focus in the movie itself, more of a backdrop for Han and Ben's reunion and the following confrontation between Finn/Rey and Kylo in the forest. That, for me, was the real dramatic point of the third act.

 

Agreed I liked a superweapon stirring up trouble for the resistance.

 

the starkiller functions as an evil castle space from which our heroes must escape and which reveals something about the main characters' personalities. The superweapons is meant to signify that the place where are heroes have to rescue the protagonist is an inherently evil space which larger significance for the entire galaxy and subsequent story.

 

I'm not sure if you saw this in my previous post:

Also with no Republic around in any significant capacity, it eliminates the possibility of a quick decisive military campaign against the First Order. We have to remember that the Galactic Republic defeated the Empire. The First Order represented a faction of the Empire, not the whole of it. In a head to head battle, it's likely that the Republic and Resistance makes quick work of the FO (if somehow the Republic could have been coaxed into war).

So... from a strategic stand point, I can see someone making the case that a planet killing weapon wasn't necessary, just a fleet destroying weapon. But from the movie's stand point, logistically, it appears TPTB made the decision to remove the Republic and it's fleet from the playing field and a Death Star like weapon was the easiest pathway to it. I think they made SK Base not so much to just be a weapon but to be a symbol of their power, discipline, and commitment to their cause.

Still this all begs the question: if we're tired of the Death Stars, are we also tired of other repeated elements in Star Wars? Like say for example, are we tired of Light Sabers? Is it redundant just because we see it across films? I don't think so. Just my 2 cents.

 

Something like the World Devastators from "Dark Empire" could have worked better. I heard something about JJ/Kasdan thought to incorporate something like that at some point of the script development...If that's true, it's a pity that they ruled off the idea...

 

TFA absolutely didn't need Starkiller Base. Starkiller Base shows up out of nowhere, destroys the capital of a Republic that the audience doesn't have any reason to care about, and then itself is destroyed, all without contributing anything to the actual plot of TFA (the search for Luke).

They could have simply had the Republic continue to refuse to enter the conflict. Based on your logic, the Republic's existence prior to the scene where Starkiller Base is used is a plot hole.

 

Yes the FO could have posed a serious threat without the Death Star 3. They could have taken over 1 or 2 star systems and the Republic could have appeased them, showing parallels to both WW2 and ISIS.

 

Time and history are factors too.
We(the film goers/fans) can't & wouldn't know WTF took place or who did what for 30-34 years, .
How or why the First Order chose to create the Star Killer planet or where the group came from was not a part of the film.
I considered buying the Star Wars novel: Aftermath prior to going to the movie but didn't get a chance.
JJ & Kasdan couldn't think the final edited film would really be taken seriously the way they set up the movie's 3rd act. The attack on Star Killer base & the "commando" raid on the reactor/core station.

The "hey so what" attitude really detracted from the story & didn't have the drama & excitement of the battle in A New Hope(1977).

 

I am of the opinion that they ought to have used one of the various superweapons depicted in the Old EU/Legends stories rather than coming up with a Death Star on steroids. The Galaxy Gun or the Sun Crusher (or re-imagined versions of them) would have been pretty interesting to see on the big screen.

 

maybe we will see something of that nature in the next film.

i think a lot of people overlook that there's a strong indication we're supposed to feel jaded about Starkiller.
Han rolls his eyes: "so it's big, so what?"
then: "how do we blow it up? there's always a way."

i don't think Starkiller as a weapon is necessarily important in and of itself. but it does serve two crucial points:

1. to demonstrate to the Resistance that the FO has achieved the capacity for this level of destruction (remember Poe's surprise at seeing how massive the Finalizer is? they had no idea).
2. to serve as a geographic location for the big finale where heroes and villains can have their showdown.