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Defying The Dark Side: Thoughts, Philosophy and Techniques

Discussion in 'General Movie Discussion' started by Moral Hazard, Sep 24, 2016.

  1. SuperBenKenobi1992

    SuperBenKenobi1992 Rebel General

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    Naa you're good I was more worried I hadn't conveyed my thoughts properly
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 27, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 27, 2016 ---
    As I would, on surface, agree I have been wondering if there isn't more. I have been noodling with the idea the Force does not have a dark or a light side to it.My theory is that dark and light side are human terms created to justify or explain behavior. I think it's possible that the person begins to manipulate the force to do evil things, and justify it by proclaiming a faith based on the "Dark Side off the force." It's merely a thought
     
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  2. CTrent29

    CTrent29 Rebel Official

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    Someone - a writer named Paul MacDonald - had once pointed out that Qui-Gon Jinn was the only Force user who never used terms like "Dark" or "Light" in describing the Force. He hinted that Qui-Gon was not in the habit of compartmentalizing the Force. Then I recalled that in "The Phantom Menace", Qui-Gon had described Darth Maul to the Jedi Council in the following manner:

    I find it interesting that Qui-Gon never said anything about Maul using "the Dark Side of the Force" or anything else. In fact, he did not even use the word "Force" to describe Maul's abilities.



    It's interesting that the Jedi were also guilty of a strong attachment - namely to the Order itself. The major Jedi characters - Yoda, Mace Windu, Ki-Adi Mundi and Obi-Wan Kenobi resorted to extreme methods to maintain the status quo and existence of the Order. It's not that they were wrong about attachment. It's just that they never saw the attachment they had formed toward the Order itself.

    Luke did break his moral compass. Or at least he came very close to breaking it, due to his attachment to Han and especially Leia. What made this situation even more ironic is that he probably would have broken his moral compass, even Palpatine had not gloated over his beat down of Anakin.
     
    #22 CTrent29, Sep 28, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2016
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  3. SithSorcererofdeath

    SithSorcererofdeath Rebel Official

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    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 28, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 28, 2016 ---
    There is NO Canon Definition of The Force. It is all Fan interpretation
     
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  4. GingerByte

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    Actually there is. Lucas has explained many times how the light and the dark aspects of the force relate to each other, how the force has a will, what planes allow Jedi to achieve what etc.
     
  5. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Lucas was pretty clear on it, whatever that means now. But the films are explicit in showing us what the dark side is and how the balance slips as the dark side grows.
     
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  6. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    Luke never broke his moral compass. that's why he's the hero. the closest he came was beating on Vader, but yes, he came back from that. of all the characters in the Star Wars saga, Luke is the only one who has never compromised his principles. Rey comes in a close second, but she does have a more morally ambivalent nature: she attacks first, she did run away, and she was very tempted to kill Kylo Ren.

    is this so definable, though? it's a philosophical/metaphysical question, not a matter of midichlorians.
    or do you think Light and Dark are measurable/tangible things?
     
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  7. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I just mean in terms of balance and how what the light vs dark actually was.
    Lucas seems pretty clear in most interviews and bts videos that the two sides of the Force are essentially compassion and selflessness vs greed and selfishness.
    He points out, as is clear in the films, that the Dark Side unbalances the Force. He has gone further and said that the light side is balance. This then tells us that it is balance in terms of how we would regard a balanced bank account or a balanced diet.

    The films also show how the balance begins to slip as the Sith emerge and then goes completely out of balance once the Dark Side has taken over.
    Midichlorians are not the Force of course. They just explain why some people are born with a greater potential for Force ability than others.

    Of course, the Force itself is a great mystery and there are many parts left open to interpretation.
    But if we are to truly study the films and get a clear representation of what was going on then we should accept that the Dark Side causes imbalance and that the basic elements of the dark and light side are greed vs compassion.
     
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  8. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    right ~ but not to be flippant (and i know i will be get lambasted for this), the man just made stuff up as he went along (and there are many things problematic with his universe).

    to take those analogies: Light would be protein, veggies, whole grains, and dairy. Dark would be twinkies and pickles and Squirt (un-foods).

    the objective as i understand you defining it through Lucas is to eat to "good" meal and eschew the junk food.
    but that's not really balance. that's omitting or eliminating something in favor of something else.
    balance is having everything in proportion.

    while i don't argue that your definition via Lucas is correct, i would argue that the ST isn't cottoning to it--and good riddance. it's an unnatural contradiction that defies human nature. and if it's not, it's merely a philosophical construct humans use to interpret and make sense of the universe (as with any religion) and has no actual cosmic reality.

    maybe this is the ol' guns don't kill people argument, but how one interprets the Force really depends on whether you believe it has agency and whether you believe people determine their own fates and destinies. it strikes me that the idea of acting on the mere existence of the Dark causing galactic imbalance is an extremely nihilistic view. you cannot ever completely purge Darkness ~ it's part of what makes people who they are.

    and it's the only thing against which we can measure Light.

    that
    is balance.
     
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  9. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I would say that is balance, from a certain perspective. A balanced diet isn't simply eating so called good food and omitting so called bad food. It is making sure you are getting the right vitamins, proteins, carbohydrates etc. If you have a little cake every now and again it isn't going to do you too much harm but when cakes are forced down your neck 24/7 then you have a problem. Your body will stop working.

    So balance in this definition refers to keeping things in harmony. The "bad foods" don't balance out with the good foods but are simply a foreign object which causes problems for you. Eating what is right or doing what is right essentially keeps your body/the Force in harmony. Eating poorly or committing evil essentially destroys your body/disrupts the balance of the Force (which is essentially what drives the will of the Force as this is simply "the collective consciousness of the galaxy.

    This is where the Sith come in - they are very good and spreading evil everywhere. Continuing with the food analogy, they're McDonalds! A greedy, fast food chain looking to maximise profits to the detriment of people's health.

    I don't see them going in that direction - yet, at least. San Tekka brings up the balance and doesn't contradict this way of thinking.
    I don't see how it defies human nature either. Most people want to be happy. And this is all the balance truly refers to.
    When people are unhappy then the energy they create which in turn becomes the Force, is in the negative.
    So when the Sith or whoever are on the rampage, life across the galaxy is unhappy. And this is revealed through the Force itself.

    I don't think for a second it is about utterly purging the darkness. Light and dark will always exist. But when the dark outweighs the light then there is a problem.
    People do make their own choices. They aren't controlled by the Force. But they can listen to it and follow its will. And its will is in accordance with what will make the galaxy happy again (as a whole). It's the opposite to nihilism. It's understanding that there is a real meaning to your life, a role for you to play in helping bring happiness to others and in turn the Force.
     
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  10. FN-3263827

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    well your explanation here is better than the previous one, but it's now not what Lucas said (because you're allowing that a little cake now and then is okay whereas Lucas is saying no cake at no time!). this is the problem with absolutes.

    is the Dark, by definition, always evil and to be avoided? and if you go to McDonalds are you corrupted (and forever it will dominate your eating habits?).

    the Jedi were terrible people in the PT. and they are no better in The Clone Wars, i'm finding. and they are supposed to be the ambassadors of the Light?

    Lor San Tekka belongs to the Church of the Force; he is an acolyte promulgating Light Force dogma. that doesn't make it true, know what i mean?

    everyone wants "balance" in the galaxy. for the Resistance and people like LST, that means eradicating the "Darkness" that is the First Order. for the First Order, it's means taking control and putting things back in Order as it sees fit. perhaps what was true of the PT is likely just as true here: they are both wrong.
     
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  11. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I meant a little dark is ok in the galaxy as it will always exist anyway. There will always be greed and hatred. It's just the Sith are very good at spreading it everywhere. A Jedi must eschew the dark however. And when the dark is strong then there is imbalance.

    Re: McDonalds - Luke showed one can overcome the downward spiral towards the dark side. Likewise, one can change a diet if the will power is there. But junk food is addictive!

    Re:FO - they may think they're bringing balance but they are not. They are in the wrong because they're ultimately acting out of greed.

    Re: PT Jedi - They weren't so bad. Just arrogant and blinded by the dark side. But their hearts were in the right place.
     
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  12. FN-3263827

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    but this is perceptual.

    just for argument's sake, look at Kylo Ren: he's not acting out of greed in spite of totally committing himself to the First Order/Snoke/the Dark. he thinks he's doing something good and important for the galaxy. how do you reconcile that?

    how do you reconcile someone like Thanisson or Mitaka or Unamo: just some kids raised by Imperials to think this is the right way. what are they greedy about? they're going to sacrifice their lives to the "cause" with very little (if any) personal gain.

    their hearts are in the "right" place. just so happens the right place for them is totally wrong for the actual best interests of the world they are trying to "save".

    i'm not disagreeing that when there is a powerful presence of Dark Force that the galaxy is going to get indigestion.
    i'm just saying it's not the Force, really. it's the people who wield it.
     
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  13. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    He may not know but that doesn't mean he is right - he is just guilty of complete ignorance. You can bet your right hand though that the guys at the top know the score and do it for the power. And as for Ren, he knows he has a choice but he chooses the dark side because of his own fears of not being strong like Vader. That is his greed.

    I see the Force and all lifeforms as a symbiotic circle. Life creates the force, that energy really exists and then that energy penetrates through everything completing the circle and influencing everything.

    So for example:

    "People" create the force - The force energy is there to be used - the Sith use it for evil and spread darkness - "the people" are oppressed and under a cloud of despair - the energy they create is weighed down with darkness - the dark side grows...

    The Jedi are the cure to this: Jedi destroy the Sith - darkness stops spreading and hope is found - people are happy - their energy is positive - the force is in balance again.
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 28, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 28, 2016 ---
    I think the PT Jedi were arrogant but they were simply outmanoeuvred by the Sith. They were unchallenged for a millennia so it's forgiveable that they perhaps didn't see a need to change their ways (detach from the republic/consider the living force more/not see themselves as infallible).

    But yes, they largely went against their own "ways" by fighting the clone wars and thus contributed to the growing dark side. I'm just not totally sure what else they could've done. Had they not fought then Palpatine still would've branded them traitors and taken over. They sincerely believed the Sith were behind the separatist movement. They had to fight them really. But perhaps if they had been more mindful of the living force they would've realised they were serving a corrupt Republic. But it's an alrighty grey area.
     
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  14. SithSorcererofdeath

    SithSorcererofdeath Rebel Official

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    That's exactly my point, Lucas knew the force was interpretive, he never attacked for example the KOTOR series for showing a different view of the force (and yes the EU STILL matters!)
    One of the things I try to enforce on this forums is how the bad guys are usually way more interesting and with more personal depth than the "good guys". Because they have a seriousness of purpose and an interesting belief system of charisma and power which can vary from villain to villain. You can believe what every you want about the force, but don't impose it on other fans :)
     
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  15. GingerByte

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    He never attacked the KOTOR series because he never cared about it. It wasn't his vision, his canon!
     
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  16. SuperBenKenobi1992

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    I think the point is this... Balance to the force is as has been stated earlier, moderation of all the things. The Light Side is all of the good nutrition, literature, or art that is beneficial for your soul diet ant literacy. wheras the Dark Side is all the simple Literature, or junk food, or lower class art. Some chips are fine for you or its okay to read a childrens book every once in a while. But if all you consumer are simple carbs rap music, and Young adult novels, you arent developing as a full well rounded human. You can't have a diet based on Cookies alone, they are merely a treat you can have once in a while.

    Putting that in force terms. Practicing things like peace patience, and kindness are Jedi practices. The Dark side allows for frustration, passion, and deep emotions. But you can't let your deep emotions rule your life and control your decisions. When you start allowing yourself to kill someone its like you agreed to let yourself eat an entire cake. granted this is all made up by Lucas but I would argue that the Dark side of the force is a title given by force users as a way of saying that this stuff isn't good for you to practice on a regular basis. The Jedi are like the self righteous, elitist snobs that don't do anything "bad" like listen to a lesser music or eat sugar God forbid. The Dark side is made to sound evil. But think that as with all things the Dark side is only bad when used out of moderation, and improperly. There is a time and place to use force grip and lightning. Killing your subjects i not one of them.
     
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  17. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    I think what needs to be differentiated is how the Jedi should act compared with how the rest of the galaxy should act (and its natural complexion).
    What I mean by that is that the galaxy consists of both light and dark. Ordinary people do bad things. Natural disasters cause despair.
    This won't ever change and in fact such events bring out the very best in others.
    Alongside this, the Dark Side is essentially about greed and selfishness. But there is a scale to it.
    At one end for instance you might have the "greed" to want to sleep with someone. This isn't an evil act. It's natural. But it is of course an act that is (partially) based on your own "selfish desires" for pleasure. At the other end of the scale would be blowing up a planet to maintain your power.
    For ordinary folk, a little of this "dark side" is natural and harmless. Of course, when they become really selfish they can do great harm to many people as well as those around them. And in large groups, even non-Force sensitives can bring great despair and essentially serve the Dark Side.

    This is where the Jedi are and must be different.
    Firstly, a Jedi cannot act as an ordinary person because of the responsibility the power they have brings them.
    A Jedi must serve the will of the Force and always put what is right ahead of what they may want for themselves. This is a very difficult thing to do at the best of times - hence why it was stated that a Jedi should not form attachments.
    For a Jedi to cultivate in any way the Dark Side, whether it be a desire to have a relationship with someone or to prioritise saving the life of someone they fear to lose (natural and relatively harmless thoughts for the ordinary man or woman), this will result in a neglect of their duty and possibly worse - a full turn to the Dark Side.

    The role of the Jedi is to stop the Dark Side from taking over. It isn't about doing the impossible and purging it completely.
    So whether that be dealing with a dispute on a far away planet where a non-Force sensitive warlord is creating havoc or worse, a Sith Lord trying to take over the galaxy - they must put a stop to it.

    The life of a Jedi is a hard life. And it is incredibly difficult for one to constantly eschew the Dark Side, in however it presents itself. But that is what is necessary.
    You can't go around dabbling in the Dark Side because the very nature of the Dark Side is one of seduction and addiction to power. And this is what sucks people in:
    Not only do these Jedi's have the natural temptations that we all have but they have the extra burden of the greater physical power the Dark Side offers them.
    Just look at Luke's eyes as he takes down Vader in Return of the Jedi.
    It is at that point that Luke realises what he is becoming and that he must utterly reject the Dark Side or he will become his father.
    He throws down his saber, let's go of his attachments (to life, power and the fear of losing his friends) and does what is right.
    That's how he becomes a Jedi. And that is what a Jedi should be.
     
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  18. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    It's interesting to read peoples views on the balance of the Force - they all make some sense and have nuggets of truth to them.

    I listened to the latest Can(non)tina podcast today which touched on the "balance" discussion after the comic talk. Someone mentioned that the ambiguity and debate around balancing the Force is likely as prevalent "in universe" as it is without. They posited that if the Force is looked upon as a spiritual energy in universe, then every perspective or religion would offer its own ideology, rituals, or sacred interpretation based on the available evidence and their values. They claimed the Sith would have a different interpretation of "balance" to the Jedi, and the Night-sisters, Church of the Force, and Bendu others again.

    I'm currently intrigued by the "balanced nutrients" and "moderation" analogies. I used to have some wild theories about the Force wanting to be used and trying to equalise itself. I would take these theories into the duel situation and theorise that, as a result of a darksiders attempt at (easier so perhaps quicker) Force control, a lightsider's best defence would be relaxing into the counter flow and just being a conduit for the equalising light side!

    (duel)
     
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  19. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi General

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    Yeah, for me we're told what the Force is by Yoda and Ben:
    "An energy field created by all living things", being the important part.
    This tells me that life creates the Force and so the Force itself isn't some "God" creator but rather the product of life.
    And so "the Force's will" isn't the "desire" of a sentient God but merely the voice for the collective consciousness of the galaxy.
    Essentially, it is the Gaia Theory on a galactic scale.
    So life throughout the galaxy desires peace, harmony and freedom. And thus the Force's will speaks this to those that can and do listen.
    This harmony is achieved when there is more light than dark in the galaxy. That is to say, darkness is everywhere when the Sith are in control.

    And so the Jedi are the ones who can hear this collective voice of the galaxy and then know how to restore harmony - be it by destroying the Sith or combating the growing Dark Side in however it surfaces.

    The Sith, or those that use the Dark Side, are on the outside of this circle and instead force their way into the symbiotic circle - corrupting it like a cancer cell.
    They use the energy field for evil purposes, thus increasing its Dark Side so that it takes over. Being as powerful as they are, this is why they are the greatest threat to the balance. They are the ultimate enemy to the Jedi.

    And as you (@Moral Hazard) say, the best defence for a Jedi is to allow the light side to flow through them - but this is essentially them being passive and listening to the will of the Force:

    "You mean it controls your actions?"
    "Partially, but it also obeys your commands".

    Symbiance. The Jedi enact the will of the Force by listening to it. The Sith ignore the will of the Force and do what they desire.
    So as for how the Sith would interpret "balance" and indeed the prophesy of the chosen one - I'd say they don't look at it in the correct way. They ignore the will of the Force which is what true balance is about. Instead they would see balance as being total control of the Dark Side as they believe this is what gives them the power they desire. And with the prophesy - I think they simply reject it. The Sith wouldn't adhere to anything that suggests anyone or anything controls their destiny. They get what they want. Or so they think.
     
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  20. SithSorcererofdeath

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    I
    he probably thought it was good for SW to have a history making video game anyway. I respect Lucas tremendously he is a genius, on an intellectual level I might add. He has different beliefs than me though.
     
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