SPOILER How much does this newb have wrong? (SPOILERS)

Total newb here, been reading various spoiler tidbits here and there now for a few months, but have probably missed a few whoppers along the way.

BEWARE: This post does have spoilers, or at least my limited knowledge of them.

BEWARE: Opinions are here too, you may not like a lot of them. You have my license for calling me an idiot based on them. It's okay, I accept my admiration for Star Wars is subtle, strange and for many, uninformed and just plain wrong.

The post focuses almost exclusively on Episode VII. My basic question to you is how much of the following that I think is correct, is in fact correct about Episode VII? I realize nobody knows the story for sure.

1. The main heroes of this film are Rey and Finn. Poe is an anti-hero? Actually, Poe's precise attitude towards the conflict seems to contradict itself as I read rumors, so clarification here would be greatly appreciated.

2. Rey is a loner, a scavenger in a place called Jakku.

3. Some crazy rumor I read was that Jakku is Tatooine, renamed after it lost one of its suns in a battle? How crazy is that? Is Jakku its own place, or part of Tatooine? Seems silly to create another desert planet that looks like an awful lot like Tatooine, but then chicken out and say, "oh no it's an entirely different planet".

3. The Empire's remnants are now called "First Order", they are still larger, richer and more organized than the rebellion but their political power has diminished.

4. Finn is a storm trooper, whose conscience gets the better of him during a horrible massacre. He flees the First Order and sets up a primary chase early in the film that doesn't conclude until the second act.

5. Luke is likely only in the film at the end. Opinions differ as to whether has any action at the end, some believe his only contribution is to show up at the end and accept a gift from Rey and Finn.

6. MSW insists there are two super weapons, with really awful code names. These are just code names for the script, but is anyone else concerned how formulaic the code names are? As if the whole script is a disingenuous exercise in repeating templates from the OT?

7. Leia is militant and estranged from Han in this film. She has also learned the old Jedi Mind trick and uses it in the film.

8. Han has somehow lost the Falcon again, but seems to show up out of nowhere to reclaim it right when the primary heroes need his help?

9. The film will have lots of loose ends, to provide bridges to other films. Even the "death" of a major character might be left with just enough holes in it to bring that character back in a future film if necessary.

10. More practical effects than the prequels.

11. Luke once started a Jedi Academy but it ended in tragedy. The primary villain seems to be the core reason it failed.

12. The McGuffin for the entire film is Luke's old light saber from Empire, the one that originally belonged to Vader and that OB1 gave to Luke lying that, "Your father wanted you to have this...", despite the fact in the prequels Vader isn't even sure his children exist and believes his wife and mother to his children are dead.

13. The "anthology" films are films with cheaper budgets, faster production schedules and even has the audacity of placing other actors in iconic roles and possibly rewriting the canon of Boba Fett and even a major revision to Darth Vader is coming I here? The second anthology films is rudderless right now, without even a director named and several rewrites already?

14. There is an active misinformation campaign out there. Some of the plot points circulating around Reddit, MSW and even this site are specifically designed to provide fake spoilers.

15. Kylo is the primary villain. There is a major twist to his origin, but the general consensus seems to be he's a Solo, possibly a twin to Rey and he went to the dark side early, possibly was even the catalyst to destroying the Jedi Academy and sending Luke into exile.

16. Kylo wears a rip off of the Darth Revan mask, but the film has no links to the EU. The closest you might get is a link to Plagueis, a casual reference in the prequels and part of one of the dumbest plot devices in the entire prequel.

17. The film has three acts: The first is introduction to Finn, his collision with Rey and their decision to take the saber to someone. The second is Han saving their butt during the chase, while we learn more about why Kylo is so obsessed with finding the saber. The third act sets up an assault to destroy a super weapon and at the very end, return the saber to Luke.

18. Some rumors seem to be forgotten. For example Serksis was once quoted as saying he played two characters, but this was retracted later. Important, because to me this reveals that his actual character has a dual identity, or that his true identity is not fully known, which would explain his comment and why later it was so important for him to retract it as it actually contains an important spoiler.

19. Mark Hamill numerous times has warned fans this film is about "the new generation" and has hinted the contributions he makes to the film are fairly minimal.

20. Hamill has regrown his beard, meaning either reshoots for VII are coming or he's preparing for VIII.

21. Captain Phasma, despite having a name of a DJ from 1978 who wears moon boots and plays Rick Dees, is a chrome storm trooper, and is a bad ass and a cool character, but they kill her off at the end of the film.

22. Lupita plays a Mo-Cap character with Jedi powers that also includes the ability to let other people see flashbacks? A heavy, unapologetic plot device to fill in some of the gaps in a rather thin story I guess? Like a lot of powerful characters in the Star Wars universe, she seems disinterested in active participation, and more keen to just to set the primary characters in motion.

23. The ending seems to suggest that Rey, Chewie and Finn go off to find/rescue a major character that appears to have died, but could still be alive. Perhaps Luke assures the group he is still alive and worth finding. That's not a rumor, that's conjecture on my part, but it fits with the treatments we've read from various rumor sites which talk about how like in Empire, there's a muted celebration, but also a clear link to the next film.

24. There's an X-Wing pilot with the truly awful name of Poe Dameron. He's from Yavin IV and appears to be not entirely on board with everything the rebels are up to?

25. There is a strong hint the rebellion is no longer so pure, that there is a lot of moral ambiguity to the rebellion now. This more than any other rumor upsets me greatly. Star Wars is just Hollywood manufacturing mythology, while painting fantastic allegories to the time we live in now. Good myth clarifies moral ambiguity, it doesn't obscure it.

26. A soccer ball droid that rips off the voice of Eve from Wall-E is the lovable, comic relief character in the film and develops a comedic rivalry with R2D2.

My apologies for some of the cynicism in my recap, but do I essentially have what Episode VII will likely deliver us correct?

I think the film can be good, it can be quite good, but I also think given some of the rumors above, it has the potential to be a complete disaster.

I am also not the least bit exited about going backwards. Filling in the "gaps" between III and IV doesn't interest me much, particularly since you now need to recast iconic characters to do it and will likely ruin the fact that Episode IV immerses you into a universe and a plot with razor sharp precision. In fact, in general, prequels are a bad idea. stories are meant to be told from start to finish, I think only Godfather II managed the trick of going backwards effectively, but that was always juxtaposed with a story that was moving forward.

So I am fairly confident Episode VII will be decent fare, but overall Disney seems content on diluting and reusing anything and everything they believe will generate toy sales and yearly box office profit.

Will it work? Nobody knows, not even Kennedy, but I'd love to hear your opinion on this.

ME:

If you are wondering where I get this cynical veneer as a fan and as a confession that I am a biased, extremely opinionated Star Wars fan:

I am an old man, saw Star Wars at age 11 the opening weekend in 1977, was an avid collector in those days and stood in line for the book store to open the day Splinter of the Mind's Eye was released.

I HATED the prequels. Even my kids hate the prequels. My kids and most kids their age delight in mocking how bad the prequels are. I apologized for all the prequels when they first came out, but as time has progressed I've accepted the painful truth that the story writing is awful, the dialog is absolutely dreadful, the primary purpose of the prequels (explaining how Vader becomes consumed with evil) makes no sense and seems tacked on to the third film like an after thought. The worst part of the prequels though is the CGI, much of it is very dated, in fact I argue Episode I has dated more poorly than Episode IV, the practical effects of the 70's seem to have a longer shelf life than the flat, clumsy computer renderings presented in Episode I. Jar Jar Binks the worst character since Steppin Fetchit, a shameful depiction derived from truly awful stereotypes and diction robbed from old minstrel shows.

So I do not love everything Star Wars had made and yet I consider Episode IV (not Episode V by the way) as one of the best American films ever made and proudly display it in the same echelon as Do the Right Thing, Citizen Kane, Wizard of Oz and Godfather as one of the best films Hollywood has ever made.

Episode V is great too, but it was just Episode IV with better lighting and direction and ends in a cheap cliff hanger. The clever allegories in Episode IV, which make the film transcendent and a truly iconic piece of Americana diminish. It's a better action movie, but it isn't quite as good a film.

Episode VI is a fun children's film that depicts a comedic Teddy Bear revolution, in hopes of launching a whole line of toys and cartoons about those Teddy Bears, only to come to realize America didn't particularly like watching the Empire collapse because some puntable furry creatures hurl rocks and sticks at them. That said, Episode VI features brilliant lighting, editing and an iconic Oedipal climax where the hero must kill his father to protect the maternal elements of his family. Also Nien Numb is the greatest muppet this side of Oscar the Grouch.

I will read every word of every response. I offer cookies to those who take the time to clarify things for me, as I think I have a lot of stuff wrong.

My apologies if my obtuse opinions offend you, rest assured I'll respect your countering view.

 

Magnar, fabulous post. My favorite thing I've read all day. Thank you.

Might seem like I'm both quibbling and ungrateful for your effort in my response, apologies, in fact I loved what you wrote and fully concede you are far more versed on these topics as I am.

I had read some of the threads you posted, some of my questions derived from the information embedded in them, but I thank you for posting them, there is still more I need to read and learn. Cheers.

I read recently that the most heroic act in this film comes from Leia and she largely saves the rebellion in the film. Have you read this and it is just more speculation?

Ditto, either embrace the history or find another landscape, seems odd to me that they have a planet that looks exactly like Tatooine but they go out of their way to insist that it isn't. Something fishy there, but likely it just is what it is, just as you say.

And has the code word "evil castle" right? The code words bother me. I don't like how JJ Abrams reduces every IP he inherits to simple tropes and reused ideas. See Star Trek 2 for the definitive template JJ seems to gravitate to, which is to hand uber-fans everything they love about the old franchise back to them with a new coat of paint. It mitigates risk, makes uber-fans happy, but it also seems a little lazy creatively.

Let's hope the rampant nostalgia of this film is artful and not forced.

I've read some rumors that this is literally the last scene, but I've also read rumors there is more after they meet him. Do we know yet which one is more likely?

Did I not read a brief comment from Carrie that at first she didn't think Leia would do or say some of the things in the new film? There is some suggestion that Leia is extreme and that Poe in particular crosses her because she is so extreme. Poe actually destroys her weapon too? Did I not read that somewhere?

Is it fair to say that of all the original characters, Leia's exact disposition and arc in the film is the least known?

It suggests though that Han is no longer the owner of it. Is there not a rumor (seemingly qualified by the trailer) that suggests this as well. Correct?

Die? Isn't it more likely his exact fate has some element of mystery? This seems to be more JJ's style. Also did I not read that Chewie and Rey team up at the very end and are piloting the Falcon on the final shot of the film, similar to Lando and Chewie in Empire? It seems to me leaving the audience hanging as to whether Han is really dead or not is a superb way to generate interest in Episode VIII. And when are major character deaths ever definitive in action films?

I ask all of you: What percentage chance do some of you think Han is dead and stays dead in Episode VII? I'd be curious to know. Call me a cynic, but my percentage is next to zero.

The flashback engineered by Lupita's character when they hold hands and have a kind of Jedi seance?

This just sounds like clumsy story telling to me and the thought of seeing other actors play iconic characters not only doesn't thrill me, it seems a really weak way to extend a brand, like replacing Ace Frehley with Tommy Thayer (apologies for the obscure reference).

It's the primary MacGuffin, I guess this is why so many fans are confident the whole film just ends on: "Here's your light saber back Uncle, it was a helluva ride getting it back to you."

Reminds me of current fare out there right now, where story is minimal and the primary thrust of the film is one long, very busy chase scene jumping from one venue and one chase to another, similar to the new Mad Max film. This worries me a little, the pace of Star Wars is NOT fast, Episode IV is a slow burn, it's one of the reasons why it pays off so spectacularly at the end.

Slow burn action films are a Dodo bird these days though, so the likelihood of getting a clever build up of suspense and intrigue is probably pretty low.

Apologies, you are right. I offered it up as a sign that Disney is convinced that repeating and reissuing everything back with a new coat of pain is their best business plan and then extending that observation to come up with conjecture on what Episode VII will present. It was weak though, apologies.

Sure, but I'm not sure there's ever been an active misinformation campaign like this. I could be wrong, but I wager there are some elements to the MSW treatment that are COMPLETELY wrong and designed to be completely wrong. We were warned several times months ago that this was part of Disney's strategy.

I'm not condemning the tactic, I'm trying to highlight that much of what we think is going to happen, may not happen at all.

Thanks. Thumbs down on the name Snoke though. Awful name, sounds like a villain from the Smurfs.

There is a "surprise" to one of the origins of the new character, I guess that's the reveal that Rey is a Solo, but why do I think there might be even more of a shock than that with one of the characters? It's been hinted at.

Thank merciful Allah, the cluttered, contradictory EU has been nuked and we get a cleaner slate this time. Personally, I think this was long overdue. Apologies, I know that offends some of you who love the EU. I liked Revan in the original KOTOR, but Revan in the SW:TOR MMO was terrible and I'd be sad if he was referenced in the film somehow.

BB-8 will be one of those characters you love or you hate I wager. He has a very high potential to be an extremely annoying sidekick, let's hope they didn't become so enamored with the technology to make the droid work that the film overuses and over-markets him (see Jar Jar). I admire the technology developed to create him.

But the story, (English newspaper was I thought where I first read it) actually quoted him, it was wrapped in quotes as something he said, very casually and without real thought to it containing a spoiler. That's why I thought the retraction was both hasty and deliberate. For the life of me I cannot find the original story though, so I could be very wrong.

Off topic, but also some of the major spoiler leakers have had some elements wrong right? In fact, the role of the "Vicar" by Max Von Sydow changed numerous times and seemed to contradict the first offload of spoilers we got nearly a year ago, from people who have been largely right about other stuff. I'm not sure I'm clear at all as to his true identity or purpose.

If I had to guess about what elements are wrong about the MSW arc, its the importance of the super weapons and the exact nature of the role Sydow plays in the film.

And seems, if I may say, Mark seems the least invested in TFA. He seems very timid when asked about his role in TFA and seems to remind us all the time, that he doesn't really do much in this film. I'd guess he has less than 10 minutes screen time, although if I had to guess, I'd also say he does more than just receive the MacGuffin at the end of the film, but probably not much more.

I am fine with Luke having a strong mythic quality in the film and if the primary quest in the film is to find him because the stakes are so desperate, I think this makes a superb central premise of the film. My humble wooden nickel there.

And now rumors are that there is a new, "secret" ending right? That JJ is doing what was done in Empire with changed dialog and outcome of a very iconic scene.

I like this if only to remind me what we think we know, may not be what we get. In fact, nothing would delight me more if we a month or so before the movie releases, some elements of the MSW story treatment are blown out of the water and proven wrong.

I'll say it again, not everything we know right now will pan out, I'm convinced some elements of the spoilers out there are specifically designed to keep us on the wrong track.

She is, as yet, not named as part of the cast for Episode VIII right? And Gwendoline's schedule seems to prohibit her return? Is this correct?

My guess is she's the "Yoda" of the film, the Oracle if you will and whose primary purpose is to provide some context after what sounds like just a blur of action after the opening scrawl.

There's also three uses of the missing arm trope too right? 3PO for some reason has a new arm, that inexplicably is red? Like somehow they found the perfect limb to attach to the protocol droid, spend all this time getting it connected and working, but then never bothered to paint it the right color?

Then Simon Pegg loses an arm later.

Then Chewbacca loses an arm later and has it replaced with a cyborg arm?

And Yavin is central to the film. Even Leia's leaked photo shows Yavin clothing right?

But given MSW's treatment, isn't there strong evidence the Resistance is far more extreme and violent? I mean they build a super weapon that can kill millions. There seems to be some indication Leia has gone a little off the deep end? Am I the only one who got that feeling after reading the spoilers?

We did hear BB's actual voice though did we not? And wasn't it an awful lot like EVE in Wall-E? Also when someone made a flippant remark about his rivalry with R2D2 didn't JJ flash a mean, almost hateful look at the one spoiling it? And we can hear the person who leaked this immediately apologize to JJ after the QA is over and the applause begins.

Sure, speculation, but it seems reasonable speculation no?

Magnar, thanks again for all your help, time and consideration. I am much obliged.

 

Once the death is definitive of course, I'm suggest there's a strong chance there's some ambiguity to his death, as part of the intrigue leading to Episode VIII. I don't believe we'll see a Maul type death, more like what happens to Strider in LOTR when he falls off the cliff.

I personally there is 0 chance they kill him definitively, no return. suggesting however there is some reason to believe he might have died. I just think its precisely the kind of thing that keeps people hanging around in 8 and could even lead to a triumphant return in IX a-la "you're all clear kid" moment in IV. I just honestly believe that's the way Disney is going to go with someone as iconic as Han.

You're on the other scale of it, which is, "nope, MSW says he's stabbed by Kylo and that's all she wrote". Cool.

Right now, Han's death is just speculation, or does it now lie closer, to "probably", right?

Also, I know its not canon, but didn't Maul come back as a spider or something? Sorry a cheap dig on a bad cartoon. Please move on if that offended anyone.

 

You guys are great, I have read a lot, (and continue to read) but I think the cloud between rumor, strong rumor and concrete evidence is where I am totally confused. Thanks for providing clarity. Also new stuff comes along, (like today's stuff about the toys and Hasbro) that sometimes you miss stuff.

I'll review the video of his appearance at the panel, I distinctly heard pitch modulation almost identical to EVE, no words, but an eerily similar rhythm and modulation. I'll post back if I can at one point I think I'm hearing them.

But other trusted sources warned there WOULD be one right? Including the one that has provided spoilers that came true. Am I just flat out wrong about that? Apologies. I do read as much as I can.

That was news I missed. Much obliged! I actually thought the last thing I read on MSW still mentioned Chewie loses the arm near the end of the film right around the death of Han. Apologies. You read so much, over long periods of time, you lose track, hence the reason for crying "help" on this very thread. Cheers.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 22, 2015, Original Post Date: Jun 22, 2015 ---

Guess I missed how outstandingly obvious that was. Apologies. It's a cool take though on what might happen.

 

So to tie it back just a little to the original question, because Maul establishes that characters can be cut in half, fall down a massive pit and still come back, I think this lends some credence to my thought that PERHAPS Han could appear to die, then come back. In this case, perhaps by falling (like Strider in LOTR), but somehow surviving, or some event in which people assume he's dead, but he isn't.

I just see a potential of "is he or isn't he dead" type of debate being just too good a device to help develop intrigue in VIII and/or IX.

Also if Harrison Ford says, "okay I'll do more films", isn't Disney going to make sure they use him, even if it is just a few scenes? I mean Harrison Ford + Star Wars brand is like printing your own money kind of isn't it? Seems to valuable a thing to throw away in such a way that you have no narrative device that can bring him back.

But it seems most of you think he's dead, dead, dead and never coming back. Interesting. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. And I know much more about TFA than I did when I started this thread and I have all of you to thank for that. Cheers to you all for helping a newb along.

 

Yes thank you that is what I meant. Right at the 30 second mark of the video I heard a few things:

1. That voice modulation that is very similar in pitch and tone to a Wall-E droid.

2. The moderator asking, "is there a rivalry" and JJ stammering and pausing as if he was not happy the question was asked.

3. That same moderator at the END of the clip apologizing over the applause and I vaguely hear something like, "I didn't know we couldn't go there..." ...which to my paranoid ears sounded like the rivalry between BB-8 and R2D2 was real.

4. Right before "can you keep it down guys" is a clear example and seems to trigger JJ's "keep it down". He seems both annoyed that he has to talk over them, but possibly also concerned that they reveal too much what BB-8 sounds like.

I'm making a mountain out of a molecule, apologies.

Also I understand why some despise negative, pessimistic predictions. Forgive me, I just have a nagging feeling BB-8 could be totally annoying. He also has the potential to be delightful.

This is off-topic from my original post. To tie it back to clarifying what this newb does and does not understand, it seems to me that BB-8 is holding the MacGuffin for most of the film, like R2-D2 did in Episode IV and that there are a lot of parallels in VII to the OT.

And thank you again everyone for getting this newb up to speed quickly.

EDIT-Clarified location of where I thought I heard things. Added link to video.