How the order of prior episodes affects TFA

After TFA, a good Star Wars movie again, I think I cant go back to see the prequels. I just cant bear to watch the terrible acting with that boredom on almost every character's face, nor to listen to those awful dialogues. If Im going to watch the prequels again that would be thourgh the RedLetterMedia reviews. Now thats something I can always rewatch.

So my new order is Plinkett reviews, then 4-7.

 

It's not my mission to bash the PT but when a question comes up that involves them I have to speak my true feelings. I think the PT greatly diminished the OT in several ways as well as hampering development for the new sequels.

For one they could have created the story in the PT and not reveal Vader is Lukes father so that the greatest twist of cinematic history remained in tact if you watch them in order 1-6. Lucas destroyed that twist that new fans now will never experience. I just couldn't believe he did it.

With the new sequels directors have a bunch of loops to jump through or try to avoid mentioning anything about the PT at all.

I could go on and on but that is the jest of it.

 

The "twist" is only really "destroyed" from "a certain point of view":

us not knowing Vader was Luke's father until Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back.

The "twist," from Luke's perspective is still very much there and preserved.

In episodic order, we can still experience the saga and enjoy that very twist in the sense of tragic irony (http://www.shakespeare-online.com/literaryterms/ironytragic.html) -- where we know in advance what the character does not know.

That's actually quite powerful and shocking in its own right.

There are other such appreciable revelations and elaborations which can benefit the overall saga thanks to the existence of the Prequel Trilogy, such as:

• Anakin becomes Vader and is left, at the end of Revenge of the Sith, to consider every single thing he ever cared about was essentially ruined, foremost Padme.
• We understand Anakin's birth and very existence was not at all natural in its origin.
  The Emperor's rise to power is revealed to have entailed manipulation and cunning of the highest order to have done that unnoticed right in front of the Jedi.
• We get to learn how the Republic became the First Galactic Empire.
  
• We get to witness the mythical Clone Wars (previously referenced in the Original Trilogy) by Obi-Wan Kenobi when he speak with Luke in A New Hope.
  
• We get to know Obi-Wan Kenobi was quite close with Anakin, loving him and considering him a brother. This gives his later encounter with Vader an entirely new dimension and dramatic weight in A New Hope.
• The "New Hope" Luke is takes upon an even more dire sense as a result of what we witnessed happening to the Jedi: Yoda and Obi-Wan are relying on Luke to do what they were shown to be unable to do (Yoda being unable to subdue the Emperor and Obi-Wan failing to save Anakin from the Dark Side).

And there are many other ways the Prequels, for all their imperfections, still expand upon and enhance the overall saga (e.g. Darth Maul, Jango Fett, Coruscant, introductions to other worlds in the Star Wars galaxy, new characters and events influencing the future, just to name a few).

JediMasterRobert

 

Rian Johnson Although it doesn’t make much sense him being here since he isn't the director of TFA...

 

a twist doesn't necessarily have to connect lineage... one of the major twists in TFA was that kylo ren= han solo's son. for us hardcore fans, this was obvious and we pieced this together over a year before the film released.. but to someone who's a casual fan, that was a twist. if rey is related to a familiar character, it'll be a twist. if she isn't, that's fine.. but there is room for twists to occur in other categories besides lineage. some (wild) examples would be if leia is evil or if phasma joins the resistance, or one of our new younger characters joins the darkside or dies.. etc. etc. i firmly believe there will be twists and turns remaining throughout the next two films, just not limited to rey and/or anyone's lineage.

 

I'm not entirely sure that's true. I believe there are a great number of kids completely new to Star Wars that are doing just that right now (starting in the middle), and Lucasfilm has anticipated it. TFA is actually their first encounter with Star Wars, and if/because they like it, they will go back to the older movies. Eventually, the newest generation of fans will be dealing with the order 7-1-2-3-4-5-6-8-9. I think the Kylo-Vader helmet soliloquy is such an ingenious scene because it provides a new point of reference for what's truly relevant about the OT and prequels in hindsight. We're given the opportunity to watch the OT but especially the prequels with fresh eyes.

For this new generation, Han Solo is the modern equivalent to Ben Kenobi. We never really got to know him in TFA but he was obviously very much loved by all the other older characters, and then he's suddenly dead. And new fans will need to watch the OT to get to the emotional core of his backstory. That's a smart move in terms of marketing.

 

Good post but I can't agree. In fact this thread has me fired up today. Everything would have been so simple JMR. Scenes below. (not full of course)

Anakins last name is never revealed.

EXT. SCHMIS BALCONY - NIGHT

Qui-Gon: He is very strong in the force. Who is the Father?

Schmi: There is no Father. I can't explain it. I carried him, I birthed him... I was never with anyone.

A BREEZE runs through the night. Qui-Gon looks to the sky.

Done, no need to mention his last name as Skywalker. He has no father we presume no last name is needed as he was born from the force.

Padme dies before the twins are born.

INT. OPPERATING ROOM - NIGHT

Padme lay on the table in excruciating pain.

Droid - She is carrying twins. She is not going to make it.

OB1: How? She was fine earlier.

Droid: The twins have stopped breathing making her heart go into cardiac arrest.

OB1: Master Yoda is there anything we can do???

Yoda groans and kneels to the floor. (you know that yoda groan he does when he is angry and determined)

Padme dies before giving birth.

So we then here Palpatine tell Vader he must have killed her in his anger etc, etc. We have the funeral scene. That leaves us with Darth Vader with no presumably tie to the skywalker name and Padme and her twins presumably died turning Vader into a monster. Then show Vader in the suit hunting down Jedi killing them. Throw in a few random babies/children in a couple of the scenes running/hiding in fear as the massacres take place and end film shortly after.

EPISODE 4

What happened to my father? Darth Vader killed him. We believe it. Luke must have been one of those children we saw hiding in EPISODE 3.

EPISODE 5

The added scenes only have "the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi." Then. "I am your father." Holy crap! No way! And the greatest twist in cinematic history is saved for future generations who watch the film in order. But wait, if Luke is Vaders son what happened to the twin?

EPISODE 6

The twin is revealed as Leah! Holy crap! Everything in tact.

Now throughout the PT cut out all the chosen one to destroy the Sith crap and BAM, things are much easier to write for the new Sequels. And people could have their Plagious with many more options on how to do it.

Now I ask you JMR. Sure things can work and be written many ways but doesn't what I outlined make the best fit for the OT? I just don't understand how this was overlooked by professional writers and directors. I stand in awe. I have to step back and ask myself how was this missed? It blows my mind if someone were to think differently. To each their own I guess.

 

Interesting ideas, Epilay. Thank you for elaborating on your ideas.

I personally feel knowing it's Anakin Skywalker (not simply Anakin) makes all the difference starting with Episode I.

I'm not sure I would be willing to sacrifice the entire tragedy of Anakin Skywalker's rise and fall -- essentially the central reason for the Prequel's existence -- simply to preserve the shock value of Vader's "I'm your father" revelation to Luke.

JediMasterRobert

 

Then this is where we would sit down if we were the writers and say "your fired" haha just kidding. I enjoy your post.

I would lobby and say, look man we all know it's Anakin Skywalker cause we seen the OT first. For new viewers who watch them in order they don't know who Darth Vader is until the end of Episode 3 anyway. At the end of the day we will all know the PT was about the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker.

If we couldn't agree and Lucas said, "OK look. His name will be disclosed as Anakin Skywalker in Episode 1 AND we are going to keep the reveal for Episode 4, make it happen!"

I'm sure we could. Maybe even answer the ongoing debatable questions as to why they never changed Lukes last name to hide him in the process. (but that problem already existed. Either way it would be a tuff one)

 

Something I quickly whipped up to try and please us both.

OB1: Anakin counsel has given me permission to train you. What shall we name you?

ANAKIN: My name is Anakin!

OB1: Yes but you need a last name young padawan.

ANAKIN: Ummm

Anakin looks over to the archives and looks back.

ANAKIN: I was in the archives and was...

OB1: You were in the archives!?

ANAKIN: Well the code was easy to crack!

OB1 chuckles.

OB1: Please don't tell Master Yoda you did that.

ANAKIN: Yes sir.

OB1: And DON't do it again!

ANAKIN: Yes sir.

OB1 smiles.

OB1: Go on.

ANAKIN: Well I was reading about all the Jedi and my favorite was Master Skywalker. I want to be Anakin Skywalker.

OB1: That is not a good idea young Anakin.

ANAKIN: Why Master?

OB1: Well Anakin, Master Skywalker was a very powerful Jedi. And he left the order to pursue a family life. This did not please Master Yoda.

ANAKIN: Master, why can't Jedi have a family?

OB1: I'll teach you about that later Anakin. Now come we will find you a name.

ANAKIN: But I found a name. I am Anakin Skywalker!

OB1 sighs.

They have a counsel meeting and in the end Yoda sighs as well and says Anakin Skywalker your name will be. Now everything remains the same I mentioned earlier and we throw in an added scene when Vader is hunting down the Jedi.

Darth Vader tracks down the former Master Skywalker, which has been his idol. A tie fighter lands at his home.

Skywalker turns to his wife.

SKYWALKER: Take the kids and hide, go, go!

VADER: Master Skywalker we meet at last.

SKYWALKER: I no longer go by that title. Who are you and what do you want?

Vader ignites his saber. We also see him slaughter his family.

Now we go to Episode 4 and the reveal remains in tact. voilà! Because now when OB1 tells us Vader killed his father we believe Luke must have been Master Skywalkers and Vader didn't get all of the family. Bam. Boom. Can you feel that? Can you feel it! haha

So then you are pleased, I am pleased, the fans are pleased, and it flows.

Now in reality I just wrote this up to show that things can be done to save the reveal and many ways to go about it. What do you think? Because I just can't fathom they could not save the greatest twist in film history. It loathes me.

 

Lucas did....and the OT certainly didn't suffer as a result.

 

I know for a fact George would never ask me to do that, but, if he did, the simplest suggestion would be to drop any references to Skywalker as a last name in Episode IV: A New Hope and Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back.

The name, in terms of dialogue, was only mentioned a couple of times in the screenplay in Episode IV.

There would be no need to rewrite and re-film any scenes.

Essentially, this could be handled with a simple audio edit.

Luke would then be "just Luke," raised by Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru.

But, even as I've known and seen the films in and out of episodic sequence, that scene in The Empire Strikes Back still retains its stunning quality.

Too much emphasis can be placed on "shock value."

In the end, what is more important and essential in this saga? My being stunned by Vader's revelation or Luke being overwhelmed with such information?

Once you see the film, you, as a viewer know, and that's that. You get one chance to be "wowed."

On the other hand, every time we watch that scene, Luke's reaction is truly everything: the sudden awareness this villain of unspeakable atrocities was his father.

That impact will always be there.

JediMasterRobert

 

I concur. Every new fan of Star Wars that I've made started from the Phantom Menace and upwards. Because let's face it - most of them knew about the plot twist already going in (save for one - I apparently managed to somehow fake-spoil her into thinking that Anakin was actually Luke's uncle all the way to EP4). What they did not know about, though - was Order 66 and every single one of them was wowed by that scene. In their minds, that was their "I am your father" moment. It also provided rich commentary when they watched A New Hope for the first time while knowing the full extent of the saga's backstory beforehand and nearly doubled the dramatic value of the Throne Room confrontation in Episode VI - it all came down to that sole single scene, a long journey that spanned generations.

No matter the viewing order, you'll always get a lot out of watching Star Wars for the first time and the person who showed you the GFFA would be able to relive that blissful ignorance one more time through your reactions.

Besides, even if one of those fans grows up to become a prequel-hater in time, at least they could say that they saved the best movies for last.

 

Lol you are just following the recommendations by Carrie Fisher: "Watch the episodes I'm on, and then do whatever you want." LOL.

 

You would still have to redo the Padme giving birth scene or everyone would know. Besides my entire point was to change the PT to keep the twist not change the OT. As well as other things to allow further development for the new sequels. (I threw that in there to stay on topic but it's true)

I think there lies the problem. If a fan never experienced the twist they don't know what they are missing so they are fine with it. If I never have eaten steak I can't tell you what it taste like and I would be just fine with a hamburger. (Going by my own personal preference that steak > hamburger) HYPOTHETICALLY if EVERYONE that viewed Star Wars for the first time did not know that Vader was Lukes Father until TESB, not many would want the twist eliminated in the PT.

Unfortunately for me I am almost 40 so therefor I carry this burden with me because I still remember the VERY day I was 'shocked' as JMR puts it.

You see when I watch films I like to suspend belief. That also means I view the films as if I never have seen them to get that suspension. To answer your question from my point of view, both. Who are the films made for? Us. Luke is a fictional character, I am real. Shock me in reality and shock Luke in the story. Why can't we have our cake and eat it to? It could have been simple to do, but I guess for newer fans who watched the PT first they are fine with it.

I don't know maybe you think I'm making a big deal out of nothing, but to me it's a big issue I felt overlooked. Hey Lucas himself never experienced it like OT first viewers did because he knew everything that was gonna happen anyway as he created it. Maybe the twist for viewers just wasn't in his heart as much as it was for many of us other fans.

 

I agree with the sentiment, as I watched the OT films on VHS prior to experiencing the prequels, but it's just hard to find a person who isn't spoiled by the twist nowadays when it's so embedded in our pop culture.

 

I agree, but I watch the films like I have never seen them and don't know what comes up next. If I do that now, because of the PT the twist is gone. I don't know. The PT just angers me and this is one of the larger issues that put the nail in the coffin for me.

To be honest I probably don't even care because I experienced it anyway and can still drum up that same feeling, even with the PT, if I try really hard.

I think I'm just being selfless and wish younger fans got the same opportunity. Maybe it wouldn't have even mattered as like you mentioned, the cats out of the bag anyway. But for the ones who watch the films like I do, pretending you don't know what happens next... well it just sucks new fans can't even experience the twist that way.

Maybe the only fix is to watch them 4-6, 1-3 for new fans. And still I was blown away when Lucas said new fans should watch them 1-6. Sigh.