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My issue with Tarkin (not CGI)

Discussion in 'Rogue One' started by GotTheSilver, Dec 19, 2016.

  1. GotTheSilver

    GotTheSilver Rebel Official

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    Overall, I really liked that R1 gave more context to Tarkin. It helps flesh out his character and makes him more meaningful in ANH. But I don't like that R1 showed that Tarkin has poor judgment and that this is ignored by Vader and the Emperor.

    When Krennic is talking with Vader, Vader is obviously displeased that the Death Star was used to destroy Jedha City. He said it confirmed the DS's ability to create problems, and potentially exposed their secret weapon to the eyes of the Senate. Then, Tarkin fires the DS's laser a second time, this time destroying an entire Imperial installation on Scarif. This again exposed the existence of this weapon. Beyond that, Scarif was obviously an important installation that held a lot of very valuable information, and Tarkin destroyed it all. I would think at this point that Vader and the Emperor would be quite mad at Tarkin and take him out of command. Instead, he stays in command of the Death Star.

    I love the extra context on Tarkin, but I think this poor judgment takes away from the character. And Vader and the Emperor allowing Tarkin to stay in command just does not make sense to me.
     
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  2. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    Well we do not know how the Emperor necessarily sees it. He may like it, while Vader does not.
    The Emperor may very well be okay with it. Tarkin above all else, has some sway and pull.
    He's put Vader in his place before.
     
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  3. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    Wise observation my friend. Indeed there would be no point in trying to hide the Death Star after the events of Jedha if you're just going to fire away at another target days later. I argued about my dislike of the DS firing in RO a while back as it didn't make sense with Tarkin's words in ANH saying that the events there would prove that the station was operational but apparently fans don't care about this as long as they get a new SW movie.
     
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  4. Travcon

    Travcon Rebel Official

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    Well there is the little thing of it being that the Death Star is not fully operational and only using one reactor versus fully operational and operating at full power. So I wouldn't say it is nearly as black and white and a part of fans ignoring things because they are getting a new movie. One must be careful in not dismissing opposing view points as simply ignoring things because they are happy to get a new movie. That might be construed as you dismissing other's opinions and falsely characterizing them because they don't agree with you.
     
    #4 Travcon, Dec 19, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
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  5. PrincessLeiaCB3

    PrincessLeiaCB3 The Princess that was Promised
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    I just saw twice ANH - before and after RO - and I can tell that statement is incorrect.

    Governor Tarkin: Perhaps she would respond to an alternative form of persuasion.
    Darth Vader: What do you mean?
    Governor Tarkin: I think it is time we demonstrated the full power of this station. Set your course for Alderaan.

    (Later)

    Governor Tarkin: Princess Leia, before your execution, I'd like you to join me for a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No star system will dare oppose the Emperor now.
    Princess Leia Organa: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.
    Governor Tarkin: Not after we demonstrate the capabilities of this station.

    So no contradictions at all if the DS only used one reactor to destroy a small section of a planet, not the entire planet.
     
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  6. DarthLuketheWise

    DarthLuketheWise Rebelscum

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    Great observations. If you watch carefully, I think Tarkin's motivation on Scarif became clear once he learned Krennic was THERE. He had no intention of placing the DS in Hyperspace on course for Scarif until he learned that little tidbit. And after watching Vader's "dance" with Krennic on Mustufar, I'm certain both he and the Emperor were in full support of Tarkin's decision.
     
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  7. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    With all due respect mi lady, take another look at the very words in sentence 4. ''Will make this battle station operatinal'' which means that the base is now functional. The base flew perfectly well, it even entered lightspeed, it had full life support and the only reason it didn't completely destroy Jedah or the Imperial base was because Tarkin ordered it so. Just because you have used your car, droven it all around the states, turned on it's lights, wipers, radio, GPS system ect but you haven't turned on the air conditioner, that doesn't mean you can't say the car is operational until you turn on the air conditioner. Krennic let us all know the base was 100% operational so yes there are contradictions.
     
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  8. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    I don't think Tarkin necessarily used bad judgement. And as another poster pointed out, Tarkin for whatever reason was not threatened by Vader. I'm not sure that he ever answered to Vader the way Krennic appeared to.

    Also, it really did appear that Tarkin was looking to take out a rival (Krennic) and basically saw an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone. If the test fire failed (on Jedah), he could blame Krennic and take over. If the test succeeded he could replace Krennic and take over (which is the angle he went for). The decision to bring this massive base to Scarif seemed to serve no purpose other than to use the incursion as an excuse to take out Krennic (i.e. I was trying to eliminate the rebels, Krennic was just collateral damage)
     
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  9. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    My friend, while it is not my intention to seem like if I was dismissing other's opinions and falsely characterizing them because they don't agree with me but just as I told PrincessLeiaCB3, the only reason the DS didn't fully blow away the planets it shot at was because Tarkin ordered it and nothing more. In ANH, Tarkin said these words: I'd like you to join me for a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. Operational=Functional Now you tell me Travcon being the guy that I know that knows lots about military equipment, if you take a tank and turn it on to try it out and the tank drives ok, all electronic equipment functiones perfectly and every weapon emplacement works but when you are about to use the main gun, instead of using your most powerful warhead, your commander orders you to use a less powerful shot, would you really deny the tank is operational? Would you REALLY wait till you use the most powerful tank ammo to finally say it's operational? What if said warhead is never used and the tank serves the army many years before it's finally decommissioned, would you go around saying that the tank was never operational? This doesn't have anything to do with proving my opinion as the better one my friend. This is just pure logic. At all time RO let us know the DS was armed and ready to destroy a whole planet if needed.
     
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  10. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    Operational = Functional? Ok I can dig it
    Operational = Fully Functional? No, not so much.

    If the DS intended capability was to be able to destroy planets, but it could only destroy cities, it's operational, but not fully functional.

    That said, I do agree with you that I seem to remember Tarkin directing them to only destroy the city (implying it could do more). I think Krennic (after the destruction fo Jedah) also mentioned that that was but a fraction of it's capability (was he talking future capability or realize capability, I don't know... but there does seem to be some room for debate). I can see both sides of this argument.
     
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  11. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    You are correct my friend and the problem is that Tarkin said in ANH that the ceremony would prove that the DS was operational. Had he said ''Fully operational'' then I can understand that some elements of the base were not yet tested but this wasn't the case. Krennic wanted to fully wipe out Jedha and it was Tarkin who didn't let him and ordered him to use a weaker blast so he knew perfectly well that the DS was fully operational.
     
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  12. Bosc

    Bosc Force Attuned

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    I wonder if we are confusing Death Stars? I mean this genuinely, as I have not watched ANH since watching Rogue One (outside the first five minutes or so).

    In ROTJ, the issue is whether the Death Star is fully operational. But is that the case in ANH? Isn't it just that its full power hasn't been tested? In which case, nothing in Rogue One contradicts that.
     
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  13. Grand Master Galen Marek

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    I guess as long as the galaxy bows to his will Sidious wouldn't be bothered by Tarkin's actions.
     
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  14. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    The problem my friend were with Tarkin's words in ANH. He told Leia that she would be part of a ceremony would make the DS operational. RO showed us that the DS was fully operational in every way and the only reason it didn't completly wipe out a planet was because Tarkin ordered Krennic not to do it. Had Tarkin's words to Leia have been ''to make the DS FULLY operational'' then there would have been no contradiction but he only said make it operational.
     
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  15. Travcon

    Travcon Rebel Official

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    There are plenty of times when the first of its kind of weapon is use multiple times before it is consider operational. Multiple test in every kind of condition is employed over months before its considered operational. And in a large vessel comparable to say a nuclear sub or nuclear power aircraft carrier is tested over and over, every system multiple times, each weapon and operation is repeated to get to some degree of certainty that it is indeed ready to be operational. Even when its about to enter 'operational" stage a long shakeout period is performed to work out any kinks. So yes what occurred in RO and ANH could indeed happen.

    (Edited to avoid offending with the last sentence.)
     
    #15 Travcon, Dec 19, 2016
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  16. Boba_Fat_

    Boba_Fat_ Rebel Trooper

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    I understand your point, but I think, in a proporcional analogy with the essence of the Empire and our current history, you can say that the destruction of Jedha and Scariff were a intentional resemblance of Nevada Nuclear Test and the Bikini Atoll nuclear tests in the Cold War.

    So, following this parallel, the bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki mirror the destruction of Alderaan, where this only be the "ceremony that will make this battle station operational", not fully. More a ritual than anyhing else I see.
     

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  17. Amanaman

    Amanaman Rebel Official

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    You know something dude, you really have serious issues. While I am polite with everyone here and I always use ''my friend'' when I speak to others, you are always on the defensive and think everyone is out to get you. You see a certain comment and you quickly think that it's some sort of vendetta, personal attack, form of being condescending, using tactics to imply some kind of false familiarity to further your argument ect. Dude if you don't know how to talk to a person without your typical ''they are attacking me or they are out to get me garbage then don't bother replying to my posts and I can assure you that I'll keep away from yours cause you really are acting like a jerk man when all I've ever done is be friendly with you no matter how many times we have disagreed with things. Just block me and move on.
     
  18. Travcon

    Travcon Rebel Official

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    I will take out the part of my comment that hurt your feelings. I will the ask that you honor the request.

    But back on point many a military weapon system is constructed, ready for trials, runs them and tested to the nth degree taking years, and then announced ready for operation it still is given a lead time in the period of months to be announced fully operational and combat ready. This would be entirely consistent with real world and the SW galaxy portrayal of what was happening with the DS.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 19, 2016, Original Post Date: Dec 19, 2016 ---
    An excellent example would be the Zumwalt-class destroyer and its rail-gun main gun that is extremely cutting edge technology for military use.
     
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  19. patriot8813

    patriot8813 Rebel Official

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    He mentions to Leia, I'd like you to join me for a ceremony that will make this battle station operational. No star system will dare oppose the Emperor now. And later, Not after we demonstrate the capabilities of this station. After Rogue one I read that as Indicating that now the Empire will no longer be hiding its capabilities(As Vader said they were inclined to do in the film) and this will be the official first public demonstration of its full power. So in essence it would be its first official showing of the Death Stars power and full capability, a ceremony being the first time it actually fully destroys a planet. And also the first public showing of power as I took it as this would be the Empire showing the universe what this thing can actually do for the first time. So I think it fits fine. Tarkin uses it twice in Rogue One, once to test some capability so he could take credit for the success of that particular test and so Krennic could take the blame if it fails. Seemingly and purposely not testing its full capabilities, not wanting that type of failure to the Emperor without prior testing. Not really an official test of its full capabilities so one could say its not quite operational. He then uses it to destroy the surface of Scarrif in attempt to destroy the plans, kill the rebels trying to get at them and be done with Krennic all at once.

    I think it all works together.

    Maybe In the end, its just nitpicking continuity.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 19, 2016, Original Post Date: Dec 19, 2016 ---
    Vader, in A New Hope, seemed to be unimpressed with the Death Star. I think he's relaying that to Krennic in that problems line. I also believe the Emperor ultimately doesn't care shortly after that with everything that happens on Scarif. It seemed to me that Tarkin took it upon himself to destroy Scarif when he realized the plans for the Death Star were there. Destroy the installation, kill any rebels trying to get at it while the space battle is going on as that's obviously why they are there and kill Krennic. I see it as in his mind he is destroying the rebel alliances only avenue to the weakness of his Death Star while killing his rival, and eliminating future leaks by simply destroying whatever archive was there since the Alliance now knows of its existence. I think he can easily sell the usage to the Emperor now that the rebel alliance already knew of the Death Star's existence since their very presence on Scarif in addition to the attack on Erso's base by the Alliance probably leads to that conclusion. So the Death Star will be publicly known, so now the senate is disbanded and Tarkin is instructed to show its full capabilities to the public, hence Alderaan. That's what I took from it anyway.
     
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  20. MaximoFilms

    MaximoFilms Rebel General

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    Vader was angry because Krennic exposed the battlestation to the public even though he couldn't ensure that Galen had not compromised the weapon. You also have to keep in mind that he was basically friends with Tarkin and likely wanted him to be in charge of the DS.
    Tarkin tricked Krennic into ordering the laser to be fired at Jedha, because he knew it would make him look bad. After all, an imperial deserter was on the run with information about a weakness in the weapon's design.
    Firing at Scarif was not a mistake. The rebellion already knew the Death Star had a flaw and Tarkin was trying to stop the Rogue One crew from transmitting the plans to the rebel fleet. Conveniently, his biggest rival just so happened to be on the planet aswell.
     
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