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SPECULATION New Theory: Conscious Force and the Force Vision

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Rayjefury, Jun 14, 2017.

  1. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    There have been some intriguing theories and observations made about the ForceBack. In a recent conversation started by @Xeven, @Artur Stopka brought up a good point; Anakin's LS isn't necessarily at each location in the vision. The LS theory has some loose threads (and we've all known this, but we haven't come up with a better theory... at least not one that I've seen). I want to propose something different. I think up to this point we have been viewing the visions as a chain of events retold by the LS... what if it isn't... what if it's actually two separate chain of events and what if it's told by the Cosmic Force?

    I submit to you, LS is merely a conduit through which the Cosmic Force communicated. The first half of Rey's vision isn't about her at all, it's about Luke's pathway to bringing about Balanced Force. The second half of the vision is about Rey's pathway to bringing about Balanced Force. In both visions we see a character traumatized by some family dynamic (for Luke it was learning who his father was, for Rey it was watching her caretakers go). The Cosmic Force is showing the experiences that shape 2 particular characters that ultimately lead to them meeting and attempting to bring balance to the Force.

    Now, why is the vision from the Cloud City battle important for Luke? It is his first instance considering something other than a simple binary concept of the Force. Up to this point Luke doesn't consider the possibility that a person on the Dark Side could be anything but dark. The moment he knows that Vader is his father his perspective changes. We go into RoTJ with Luke KNOWING there was still good in him. Luke is open to learning NEW things about force beyond what he thought he knew. (This is important) Luke's not around to see how dogmatic the Jedi were in the PT, his only connection to the Jedi is through a very old Obi Wan and Yoda who simply don't have time to indoctrinate him into the Jedi ways as would be done if he had been trained as a youngling (this is also important).

    We have the advantage as the audience to know that those taught simply to use the Force (even in pursuit of Light Side ideas) are:

    1. always susceptible to temptation to opposite of their philosophy (i.e. what they call dark)
    2. still only just using the Force, not communing with it like an entity

    Luke learns this the hard way. Recall, after the demise of the Emperor and the Sith, Luke seeks to re-establish the Jedi Order, but he's doing it based on what he was taught (because... why wouldn't he?). And this blind spot quite literally results in Luke replicating almost all Obi Wan's path in the PT. Right down to Luke unwittingly serving as mentor to someone who would slaughter other Jedi in a bid for greater power promised by a dark manipulative master who wields a planetary killing system. Luke has become Obi Wan, Kylo has become Anakin. And that's why Rey sees of Kylo and Luke in this part of the vision. These are the first steps leading Luke on the pathway to finding the truth about Balanced Force.

    Enter Rey.

    And enter more parallels. Luke (the former Obi Wan student) finds redemption for Vader (the failed Obi Wan student). Rey (the Luke Skywalker student) may potentially find redemption for Kylo (the failed Luke Skywalker student). Of course some the parallels we may want to avoid. (Recall: Obi Wan dies at the hand of his former student, will Luke die at the hands of his former student? They did say Episode 8 was dark). But what about the images from the vision? How do they connect with Luke's?

    Rey's childhood trauma starts her on a path of waiting for her caretakers. Though both Luke and Rey start on desert planets some things are different, Luke can't wait to get off of Tatooine because there's nothing there for him, Rey refuses to leave Jakku because she thinks everything she wants is coming there. However, it is because of this desire for her "belonging" that she stayed put so that she was in place to begin a journey that would lead to Luke.

    Imagine the odds against one particular Storm Trooper having a moral epiphany when and where he does. Imagine further that on the same planet and mission that the galaxy's most capable pilot is taken hostage and thus made accessible to said Storm Trooper so that he could escape. Imagine that Storm Trooper shoots just well enough to help you escape Jakku another particular ship. Imagine that particular ship belongs to a former General of the Republic who is looking for it. Imagine that former General happens to be married to the sister of the last Jedi. What are the odds?

    We see Rey's vision end with a premonition about SKB preparing to fire and that she would confront Kylo, all things that put her on the path to finding Luke. Without the confrontation and ultimate destruction of SKB, she never finds Luke. These are her first steps to becoming the first Student of Balanced Force.

    I think the Cosmic Force has reached a critical mass where it actually acts on it's own behalf (directly and indirectly). That's my theory, if the Force can awaken it (or its agents) can take other action as well. And it's why neither the Sith or Jedi philosophy ultimately work because they see the Force as a great expansive thing instead of a sentient entity. It's not just a river you should feel flowing around you, but that the river itself is alive and sentient... at least that's my theory.

    And perhaps this explains some other peculiar things we saw in TFA. Maybe that's what Kylo felt around Finn on Jakku, not Finn necessarily being FS at that moment, but the Force working to putting odd defying events in place to result in Rey finding Luke (I know people will hate this part because it seems to strip Finn of moral and physical agency, but I'm really only talking about Finn having the logistics available to escape. Finn still could have felt the Force and independently decided that what the FO was doing wasn't right). But if the Force can take action, maybe this is why Rey learn's the mind trick so quickly, the Force is helping her. Maybe this is why Phasma shuts down the shields without much provocation. Maybe this is why Han was able to no-look shoot a Storm Trooper on Takadonna. Maybe this is why Finn was able to hold off Kylo without overtly showing Force Sensitivity long enough for Rey to awake. Maybe this was why Rey was ultimately able to overpower a trained Dark Sider. The Force is influencing events and people to ultimately bring the one person who is ready to teach the "New" concept of Force balance (Luke), in contact with the one person who is ready to learn it (Rey)

    TL;DR
    • Force is Sentient decision maker influencing events and actions
    • Luke is repeating Obi Wan's arc as failed teacher taking one last pupil
    • Forceback Vision is actual 2 separate visions, of Luke, and Rey which show their pathways to seeking balanced Force
    What do you all think?
     
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  2. Protocol Droid

    Protocol Droid Rebel General

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    I think identifying that the forceback is 2 separate visions, with familial trauma as the nexus, is a key insight, and thematically more "true" than the prior LS theory.

    Regarding the Force as a sentient decision-maker: I do think the title of TFA indicates this, in that it gives the Force agency or consciousness -- it's The Force itself that awakens after all. HOWEVER, I think the way that the Force awakens is through creatures (human or otherwise), and that these creatures must be "tuned" in a way ("force-sensitive") in order to embody the will of The Force. It's through a pattern of subtle manipulations that people end up where they end up and the plot moves forward at times via a constellations of coincidences, as if by a divine hand. I believe a similar "awakening" happened just prior to the events of ANH that lead to Leah's message finding its way to Luke, and kickstarting his journey.
     
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  3. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    it's an interesting idea. I get lost in my own head thinking about this after a few minutes because, well.... i start to consider other events in the star wars films, and you could link almost every event in the films to being influenced by the force.

    for instance..

    a scene as simple as Vader striking down Kenobi in ANH. was that simply hatred on the part of Vader getting revenge on his old master? or was the force needing that event to happen for Luke and Anakin's progression towards balancing the force? It's even crossed my mind once or twice that Vader was using or listening to the light side of the force when he killed Kenobi... that he knew it was part of something important.

    The Finn/Ren village scene has me perplexed beyond all recognition... bugs the crap out of me actually. I 100% don't buy that Ren simply sensed that a storm trooper was not following orders... it was force related. It reminded me a little of the moment in ANH when Vader stopped in his tracks for a moment as he sensed his old master on board the death star. something force related was going down there... and either Finn was awakening/using the force, or we're looking at something along the lines of your idea.
     
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  4. Artur Stopka

    Artur Stopka Rebel Commander

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    That's quite an interesting theory. As I have stated in my theory, I also think that the force is sentient, stating that maybe it was waiting for the moment to show Rey the vision, or rather multiple visions as you have suggested, though I have not really delved that deep into that portion of the theory. The hypothesis of two visions is well thought out, and the possibility is something we all glanced over. Also, to further support the theory of the force's sentience, we have of course the creation of 'The Chosen One'. We learn that The Chosen One was created by the force as a way to push back against Darth Plageuis' attempts to take over, but if the force was not a sentient being, would it be able to push back? Every thing needs a motivation to make a new action, one that is not a cycle or pre-existing one, and a motivation generally requires sentience, a consciousness. Creating The Chosen One is not something like for example moving through the 4 seasons, which nature does without a sentience. Instead it seems very much like an action of consciousness, or sentience. This leads me to further believe that the force is in essence a being.
     
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  5. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

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    I think that Lucas only loosely spoke of a consciousness to the Force Qui-Gon spoke of the Will of the Force. Certainly there is an element of Destiny to things. Whether that is part of a person or god that is the Cosmic Force it hasn't been said.
     
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  6. Rayjefury

    Rayjefury Force Sensitive

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    This makes sense as to me as well and could work just as well as a de facto conscious within the Force
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 14, 2017, Original Post Date: Jun 14, 2017 ---
    I considered the possibility that the events needed to converge on the one point of "A Teacher of Balance and a Student of Balance" could conceptually go far beyond just the actions of Luke. The events of Anakin prior to Luke's birth bear some influence on Luke. The only reason why I constrained my speculation to Luke, is because that's what the visions showed. Conceptually, everything that's happened in the SW universe prior to TFA, leads us to TFA. The visions however start with some key moment on Cloud City, something that changes things in a way we don't notice. It's very easy for us to focus on the fact that this is the place that Luke found out his father was Vader... but what were the implications of this revelation that we could tie to events in TFA? I speculate it's the moment we start to realize that everything isn't as it seems, a being's relationship to the Force is not as simple as we were first led to believe. But at the end of the day, this is all still speculative on my part.

    And yes, that moment with Finn definitely meant something. Kylo didn't say it, but he sensed something within the Force (IMO), whether it was from Finn or not is an open ended question, but he sensed something.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jun 14, 2017 ---
    True. The question remains open ended until they explain further in TLJ and Episode 9. They may very well elect to avoid saying that there is an actual conscious-conscious within the Force (there are implications of the Force being able to act, one of the first questions we'd all ask is, "why now"? or alternatively, "when has the Force been acting vs living beings"? It could definitely get messy).
     
    #6 Rayjefury, Jun 14, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2017
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  7. Xeven

    Xeven Rebel Official

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    Perhaps the force awakened and that was what changed FN-2187. What happened to FN-2187 was the Forces response to Kylo Ren's actions on Jakku.
     
  8. TK420

    TK420 Rebelscum

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    I have always felt that Luke himself, all alone on Ach-To was making this happen, he HAS connected to the force on the same level Rey finds out in TLJ that the "Force is so much bigger" or something along those lines....I still believe that as powerful as Luke has become, he is trying to make things right and has a plan, all those scenes in TLJ, may have been influenced through the force by Luke...just my 2 cents....
     
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  9. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    possibly.

    most of us have been hoping that Luke hasn't been sitting around like a hermit feeling sorry for himself.. so i'd definitely buy that idea for a dollar.
     
  10. Darth Brooks

    Darth Brooks Rebel General

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    F**k yeah. I'm into this theory. I've personally spent a lot of time thinking about how "the Force Awakens" might refer to a literal awakening of the force, but have not been able to put the pieces together or articulate it like this. Well done.

    I'm not sure if this is the right direction for the series to go in, but it certainly is a significant enough twist to be plausible. This very well could be what they're planning on doing.
     
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