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No Such Thing As Sith

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by Kibble, Sep 16, 2014.

  1. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    Doesn't matter. The scene was effective as hell with no heads or arms flying loosely about the place.

    Lucas could very easily have put the Jedi up against a living army of red saber wielding baddies in the PT and shown the same kinds of deaths as we saw in the sail barge battle. Maybe an occasional saber hand going that-a-way, but there's absolutely no reason why a clash between lightsaber-wielding armies would necessarily have to be portrayed as a full-on Gladiator-style bisection fest.
     
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  2. Kibble

    Kibble Rebelscum

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    ^

    <3

    Lots of modern movies seem to have forgot that. And fun action sequences in general.
     
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  3. Voxx

    Voxx Jedi Hero of Legend

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    I understand that, I was just throwing out ideas. He probably just kept 2 Sith to keep them mysterious rather than armies of them.
     
  4. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    Lucas actually said at one point during one of the TPM "making of" documentaries that he went with battle droids because the Jedi could "slice them up like butter" while still keeping the movie "family friendly". He was definitely concerned about violence... even though his earlier films were plenty violent (and the series has the word "war" right there in the title, fer flip's sake!) ;)
     
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  5. Voxx

    Voxx Jedi Hero of Legend

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    That's actually really funny. He probably decided that the same night he came up with Jar Jar Binks.
     
  6. DEKKA129

    DEKKA129 Professional Slinger of Balderdash

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    Y'know, I actually got that same impression when I watched the making-of thing years ago. :cool:
     
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  7. Voltar

    Voltar Rebel Trooper

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    Aside from the fact that this assertion is completely verifiably false, sure. The Sith appear by name in the 2nd or 3rd draft of the first movie (around 1975 I think) though they're called the Legions of Lettow in the first draft. I think Jedi are referred to as the Dai Noga in that first draft too. The first written use of the word Sith is probably the novelization of ANH in reference to Vader as the Dark Lord of the Sith. I think that was still in the 70s.

    When the EU started up in the early 90s, Zahn wanted to use the name Sith for the Noghri since all anyone (who hadn't read older versions of the ANH script) knew was that Vader was the Dark Lord of the Sith. Lucasfilm didn't let him and saved it for later when it was revealed what the word meant in the Tales of the Jedi comics which came out right after Heir to the Empire in the early 90s.

    Not to be rude but Christ, put a little effort in before posting.
     
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  8. Voltar

    Voltar Rebel Trooper

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    Edit: to put it more simply, the Sith Knights as skilled warriors who fought the Jedi Bendu (also skilled warriors) to the point of near extinction is a concept that predates the introduction of the force to the story of Star Wars. I'd say it's been a fairly integral part of the story for a while now.
     
  9. Kibble

    Kibble Rebelscum

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    Just because a concept appeared in a vague form in previous (extremely different) versions of the script, and then reappeared in later - notoriously unimaginative - films doesn't necessarily mean you can interpolate that they existed as a concept during the original trilogy. And I mean of all the people that worked on it - maybe Lucas had them in mind the whole time, but I am talking about the entire production crew.
     
  10. Voltar

    Voltar Rebel Trooper

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    Just because they were explicitly named and described in multiple still-existing (and you can actually go look this up yourself) drafts of the script does mean that I can and do know that they were always a part of the story of Star Wars, no matter who chooses to be ignorant to the facts at hand. As I said you can verify this for yourself which is why it's called a fact.
     
  11. Kibble

    Kibble Rebelscum

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    I don't disbelieve that the concept of the Sith existed in previous drafts, in fact I do believe it. However I don't think that matters to the context of my question, being what was the artists intent? (the "artists" being the people who made the Star Wars Original Trilogy) Did the writers, actors, producers, directors, and everybody else create what we saw on film with the Sith in mind, or not?
     
  12. Voltar

    Voltar Rebel Trooper

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    I can only roll two eyes at once and I can't keep chasing this moving target around forever. The title of the thread is No Such Thing As Sith which is obviously untrue but I'll give you on artistic license since it's a title. Then you stated:

    ...One thing that became immediately apparent is that it looks like the entire concept of the Sith wasn't present, and was invented for The Phantom Menace...

    I clearly explained why this isn't true and you seem to agree which should be a fun learning experience out of which we get to know each other a little better and the world is a nicer place.

    I'm not sure what your point becomes after that...what did the artists who made the movies think? George had written drafts of the script where it was a lot more explicit and then toned it down later, leaving only 4 or 5 occasions of the word in the 4th and final script. If you go to Google and search for Star Wars script then take the first hit to this site then hit ctrl+f to bring up the word search box and type "sith" you will see it pop up 5 times. I consider George the predominant artist on the project. The only thing that changed from the earlier drafts was the number of Sith. If the guys at ILM who built the model of Tantive IV or the key grip or Jim on the corner of 7th and Vine St didn't know that then I don't know what to tell you. I'd venture to guess that several of them didn't know who Obi Wan was either but that doesn't refute his existence.
     
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  13. Kibble

    Kibble Rebelscum

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    Oh I do admit that quote you pulled out of the original post is misleading.

    But I think you don't give enough credit to people who aren't George Lucas. There's a scene in Return of the Jedi when the Emperor says "Ah yes, a Jedi's weapon. Much like your father's." I don't know all the details of how a film is created, but it's like that somebody wrote that bit of dialogue, and it may have been George Lucas (unless it was ad-libbed by the actor). But its likely that the line was in the script, and the actor was directed to say it. Somebody also made the costume for the Emperor, and the costume did not include giving him a lightsaber. Nobody ever calls the Emperor a Sith. People do call Darth Vader a Jedi. My point is that the Star Wars Original Trilogy was created with rigid internal consistency, and that consistency can non-arbitrarily be used to determine what the intent of a scene, character, or concept is, because the artists definitely had intent.

    Either way I still intend for this to be a fun discussion, there's no reason to get angry just because I don't immediately accept everything you have to say. If you feel strongly enough about this to continue the discussion, please do! (but I still don't think the original drafts matter to the final project, because I am fairly certain nobody but Lucas who worked on the final project had even read said original drafts, and unlike when he was making the Prequels, Lucas did not have total control over the Original Trilogy - far from it)
     
  14. Voltar

    Voltar Rebel Trooper

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    Not angry, just being 'that guy'. I'm sure we'll agree on something later and continue the conversation then.
     
  15. DarthPilkington

    DarthPilkington Rebel Official

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    not to rain on the poop parade, but i'm gonna get back to the initial post (ignoring the title):

    growing up all i had was the OT. i barely knew about the EU stuff and frankly, i didn't care: i always thought they looked cheesy and that they didn't stand up against the movies at all (before someone jumps down my throat, let's just say that's my personal opinion and leave it at that).

    with all that being said, i was ignorant of any Sith. Vader was just a fallen Jedi, seduced by the dark side of the Force. the Emperor was just a crazy, evil, force-wielding wizard with lightning and a Darth-Vader as weapons. i never thought about what came before because they pretty much tell you: Anakin was a pupil of Obi-Wan before he turned evil, and all the other Jedi were killed off by the Empire. when you pick up the story in ANH no one even seems to know what the Force is all about; one imperial officer even mocks Vader regarding his belief in it. if anything the vibe of the story is: using the Force has kind of fallen out of fashion and the new thing to do is use lasers to blow up planets (or proton torpedoes to blow up moon-sized battle stations). at every turn people are like, "Force? what?" even Han has his turn, proving that common folks didn't know the first thing about the Jedi or the Force.

    now, when the prequel trilogies came out i thought it was awesome that there were hella Jedi. i liked that they changed things to be peaceful and at the height of civilization, so to speak. everyone knew who the Jedi were and they were a respected institution. then you hear of how there's this opposite group, called the Sith, and lo and behold! that's what Luke was fighting against the whole time! who'da thunk? midichlorians were even pretty cool at the time, i have to admit.

    although i did like aspects of the PT, they were in general pretty bad movies. i can see why they changed the things they did between the two, despite the fact that they almost contradict each other at times, but they were so poorly executed and that was (and still is) a bummer.
     
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  16. Rebo

    Rebo Nearsighted Whill Guardian
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    Not trying to be ageist or anything, but it does kind of make sense to me that you wouldn't have heard about the Sith before the prequels. Judging from you profile age of 27, that would put you in this planet after the original releases. And stuff like Sith, Palpatine's name, and whills was all word of mouth stuff being passed along from the novelizations and toy labels amongst all us star wars geek kids (which was most kids actually until the mid 80's) during the long years between releases and in the years immediately post ROTJ. I mean, I was 7 when RotJ came out and I'm relatively certain that for 2-3 years surrounding it, no one in my school talked about anything else but Star Wars. It was Skywalker or Solo, Jedi or Sith, bacta tanks and Wampas. It was all we cared about, so things that we gleaned from sources outside the movies themselves were like a drug to feed an addiction. And this was all well before the explosion of the EU when additional info became common place. Extra SW to consume, even in the form of hazy concepts or names that don't get mentioned in the films were like gold.

    This is not to say your view here is wrong at all , just that I think the word Sith was common knowledge that was lost pretty quickly as SW moved into the late 80's early 90's. So those of use that were around when these words were like keys to a hidden world had more of an attachment to them before the prequels ever came into being.
     
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