Reordering the films and seperate the PT

Reordering the entire saga? Well, I have to say, that "blows my mind."

I've asked it before when you earlier proposed, in another thread, revising the saga to hide Anakin's true identity to preserve Vader's revelation:

What's more important?

• my one moment of surprise as Darth Vader reveals to me, an audience member, that one informational point about him and his son
  
• or Luke Skywalker's own profound shock as to this truth suddenly revealed to him?

I think it helps to remember that Darth Vader is not breaking the fourth wall in that scene:

he's not talking to us. Vader is directing his words to his son. We are the onlookers here.

It's Luke's own shock that's permanently there and always appreciable no matter in what order you prefer to watch the films.

Knowing this one plot point in advance (i.e. watching the saga in numerical episodic order) simply means we get to know before Luke and therefore experience what in drama is known as dramtatic irony (http://www.britannica.com/art/dramatic-irony) (see also tragic irony: http://www.shakespeare-online.com/literaryterms/ironytragic.html)

Dramatic irony is an incredibly powerful narrative tool for a dramatist:

it builds tension and expectation in the audience and can even promote caring for a character, because we know something in advance she or he does not.

I suggest dramatic irony is far more powerful than the one-time shock value of hearing "No, I am your father."

Experiencing the Prequel Trilogy, then entering the Original Trilogy and seeing Luke for the first time, then remembering Anakin became Vader -- and, wait, that Luke is his son?! That's a pretty amazing realization.

It occurs earlier but it's no less important or disturbing.

The when Luke meets Obi-Wan Kenobi, we know Ben knows what Luke does not, and that is pretty amazing and even haunting, as Obi-Wan reflects on his former pupil.

Then, when Obi-Wan confronts Vader, there's a whole history behind those two, and this scene is more significant than it was if only viewed from within the Original Trilogy.

Then, later, when Vader's TIE fighter edges up to Luke's X-Wing in the Death Star trench: we know who they are, but neither of them know who the other is at that point! That's pretty amazing!

Then Luke rushes off from Dagobah to save his friends and confront Vader, and we can begin to wonder what's coming, especially when he finally meets Vader face to face.

And then we could begin to wonder how it might have been for Vader (like Han in The Force Awakens) to see his son as a man for the first time.

Vader's own experience seems lost when we fixate too much on his revelation to Luke.

Now, I've seen The Empire Strikes Back many times, and that revelation scene on Cloud City retains all of its original intensity and emotion because I am watching this moment, each time, unfold through Luke's eyes, not my own.

As I see it, Luke's reaction is what matters most in that moment. And how that is portrayed is pretty amazing and timeless.

So, I am totally with George on this one.

JediMasterRobert

 

Considering that Lucas was planning on producing an origin story from as far back as when he added 'Episode IV' and 'A New Hope' to Star Wars, I'm in favor of keeping to George's original vision.... even if it wasn't fully fleshed-out way back then. Nobody is beholden to any particular viewing order, and for those few who don't know that Vader is Luke's father, they can always watch the OT first.

I guess the bottom line is that I consider the story of the PT to be important, and absolutely a part of the saga.

 

Oh, then as Obi-Wan would say, "Well then you are lost."

I have nothing less than total respect and admiration for Mr. Lucas.

What he created was not perfect -- what Earthly thing is? -- but it was and is endlessly amazing and inspirational.

Criticism is, as Vader would say, "All too easy."

Lucas, like Tolkien, is in a rare realm of epic mythopoetic accomplishment, and the many more things they did right outnumber the things we might otherwise wish were otherwise.

Concepts such as dramatic irony / tragic irony go back to antiquity.

There is also anagnorisis: "a moment in a play or other work when a character makes a critical discovery."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anagnorisis

Some literary scholars prefer "Joycean epiphany" or "epiphany," but it's the same idea:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphany_(feeling)

All of these are staples of dramaturgy and literature which have been used with great effect over the ages.

But 1-6 so many other things works even more disturbingly or powerfully: when Luke and Leia kiss, when Yoda teaches Luke and later passes on, when the Emperor is overthrown, just to name a few.

I experienced all the films when they first appeared.

When I rewatch them, they're still magical. But I don't try to "recapture" any old sensations.

In fact, I enjoy them better now, because, after all my studies and works, I can appreciate even more things in them, see more connections with our present world, and find new insights concerning the overall human condition.

Very few creative persons ever bring forth such works of lasting insight and joy.

So I really have to hand it to Mr. Lucas for conceiving such a wondrous galaxy wherein our imaginations could soar.

I actually feel grateful for that!

JediMasterRobert

 

Thank you, Epilay. The respect is mutual, and I appreciate any opportunity to constructively and creatively discuss things.

I think it's wonderful that we can have our unique interpretations, expectations, understandings, and preferences, and I appreciate hearing other perspectives.

Always something to learn there is.

Instead of irony, this becomes foreshadowing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreshadowing) which is also a cool dramatic tool.

JediMasterRobert

 

I should clarify. As I see it:

• Episodes 4-6, 1-3 (seen for the first time in this order): it's dramatic irony (we know in advance Obi-Wan is struck down by Vader in Episode IV)
  
• Episodes 1-6 (seen for the first time in this order): it's foreshadowing (Obi-Wan's comments prove to be prophetic)

Afterwards, and rewatching it all (in any order), it's then a mix of all three: generally ironic, dramatic irony, and foreshadowing.

JediMasterRobert

 

Episode 1-3 foreshadowing, really? They literally shout every information to your face. What was ,,foreshadowed" if I may ask?

How about both? Its just question of good writing.

 

The line Epilay referenced, to which this one "foreshadowing" point of mine is only about, comes from Episode II: Attack of the Clones:

This entire "point" is only valid if someone has never seen Episodes 4-6 and is, for the first time, watching the saga starting from Episode I.

At this very specific scene in the saga, Anakin is Kenobi's padawan, and they are close, even though Anakin soon after reveals to Padme he wants to move on and take the Jedi trials, even as Kenobi does not believe he is ready for that.

We are not at all lead to believably expect, at this very specific moment in the saga, that Anakin will turn entirely on his mentor and strike down Obi-Wan.

That is all.

JediMasterRobert

 

Maybe if you haven't seen a movie in your enitre life. I think it was extremely predictable.
Anakin was presented in ep II as a bad apple from the very beginning. And if you somehow were living under a rock and didnt see the originals, you still know that something will happen, as there are 6 epsiodes.

Imo the moment he killed those ,,sand people" was when he turned to the dark side. Putting on the helmet and declaring loyalty to a crazy monster was just formality. He only proved in ep II that he is liar, frustrated, gives in to temptation, ungrateful and infringes the rules of the jedi.

Oh and of course he seeks power:
,,I’m not the jedi I should be. I want more. And I know I shouldn’t."
Hmmm I wonder how will he get more power...

If you couldn't predict he will turn to the dark side at that point, I dont recommend you to watch a complicated movie, like a David Lynch.

 

[sigh...]

This is not at all about predicting Anakin's path to the Dark Side. That's aspect of his character is rather beyond obvious at this point.

This was about one simple line of dialogue from Obi-Wan that Epilay asked a question about above, a line of dialogue which occurs at the very beginning of Episode II: Attack of the Clones.

Again: that is all.

What you reference:

comes long after that in that film, and even from that situation one might not reliably be able to predict with 100% certainty that Anakin would strike down Obi-Wan later.


JediMasterRobert

 

1-7 is the best order in my opinion.
I like all of them, and all of them are canon.
I watched Star Wars first time in 1-6 order. And I become a fan of Star Wars.

And this whole idea is stupid.

 

Benicio del Toro might agree with you @Epilay - notice which films he does not mention:

[del Toro]’s looking forward to Star Wars. “I really enjoyed Episode VII. And I’ve enjoyed Star Wars, especially the first one — I think it’s called Episode IV now. And Return of the Jedi, and The Empire Strikes Back — I’m not a Star Wars buff like some out there, but as a kid I really liked those films, like, way before I ever thought I was going to be in movies. There’s something of a nostalgia thing that gets you excited about being part of the Star Wars world.”

Curious, no?

 

Hi, D-green!

I'm hoping you did not confuse me/my post with the original poster

We seem to be in complete agreement, based on your post quoted above.

You did like my first post, and yet I see you just rated me "Disagree" on the next post of mine after that?

Just curious

JediMasterRobert

 

It seems that I did confuse, sorry.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 25, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 25, 2016 ---

He said that he enjoyed Star Wars.
But especially New Hope, Return of the Jedi, and The Empire Strikes Back ( he really liked as a kid ).

It's just your assumption.

 

No problem, and thanks!


JediMasterRobert

 

Thanks for the follow-up, Epilay.

Yes, this is how I see it.

People will experience the saga in pieces via website references and talk with friends or family, or randomly by watching it on TV, for example, or perhaps in order of Original Trilogy then Prequel Trilogy, or in Episode order.

Ultimately, there's so much material there that works one way or the other that someone is bound to be surprised and excited by how all those things connect.

And then there are always the re-discoveries, some things a viewer might not have noticed the first few times around, or something we hear after the fact that makes us go back to a scene or a line that makes us look at that with new interest.

This happens all the time in books, and it's great to come back to something later on with a different perspective or a different reason.

The collective canon saga material we have is virtually inexhaustible in that regard

JediMasterRobert