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The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Jedi MD, Dec 21, 2019.

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TLJ vs TROS

  1. Liked TLJ and liked TROS

    32 vote(s)
    34.4%
  2. Liked TLJ and disliked TROS

    16 vote(s)
    17.2%
  3. Disliked TLJ and liked TROS

    16 vote(s)
    17.2%
  4. Disliked TLJ and disliked TROS

    11 vote(s)
    11.8%
  5. Liked TLJ and partially liked TROS

    17 vote(s)
    18.3%
  6. Disliked TLJ and partially liked TROS

    1 vote(s)
    1.1%
  1. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    Right. That’s what I said. He’s taken this position. He’s assumed this role. But he himself is recognizing the tragedy in it. He sees there’s nothing down that road but more of the suffering he’s already experienced, but he’s headed down that way anyhow.

    What I’m saying is that there’s no empowerment there. Which is what I’ve seen asserted in this and other threads. That TLJ ends with Kylo coming into his own as THE villain. I just see it as him spiraling in the same trajectory he had after killing his father. He thought he’d find certainty - cohesion. But he only grows increasingly fractured instead. He was unbalanced before an he’s even more so after.
    Well, for you maybe. Characters and their respective motivations are my investment in story. So it’s pretty crucial to me how a character might be internalizing their experiences. But that’s me.
    Exactly. And that’s the linkage to TROS. Where he ends in TLJ is where he begins in TROS. For that reason, it’s an advancement and not a regression. Kylo’s motivation in TROS is 100% reliant on TLJ’s finale. It’s a direct continuation.
    We just have different reads. I don’t think he’s ever had faith in supremacy. That’s not why he’s doing what he’s doing. He’s not after power. He’s after clarity of self. Power is how he thinks he’ll achieve it. It’s how he becomes what he’s meant to be: a self-determined man free of doubt. But he’s wrong and he knows he’s wrong. But he’s too much of a coward to turn back.
     
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  2. Sheddai_Lightkeeper

    Sheddai_Lightkeeper Rebel General

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    Joseph Campbell, Lucas's mentor, said that in religion/mythology, people get stuck and lost in the metaphors, arguing the details without realizing it's just metaphor, or reference to something else, that it's poetry, not prose. Star Wars is designed as old myths told in a new way, said by George Lucas.

    I wish Campbell was alive to provide his take on the sequel trilogy, that's a difficult puzzle.

    For example, I posted before that one day it clicked in my head that Zorri Bliss is a reference to Joseph Campbell's phrase that he popularized, "Follow your bliss." He wasn't talking about hedonism, but rather following your true calling and following the light in your own life adventure. That gave a whole new understanding, which is the trilogy is about decisions and the collective consciousness that turns the direction of the people of the galaxy against darkness. The decisions are informed by the legacy of Luke Skywalker-- the spiritual light and hope, that is really inside of you. You get characters like broom boy, inspired by his story. Poe, a hero with a dark past, changed his direction. Then there was the ex stormtrooper that turned. Rey turned away from her dark ancestry. The crowd at the end of the final movie showed up and put down the crowd in their own collective unconscious-- the roomful of spectators on Exegol. Luke Skywalker consciousness arose inside of them, producing the change in the world. Hope realized.

    The Zorri character has a golden helmet shaped somewhat like a ship's rudder, and a purple costume. This is maybe a symbol of inner divine guidance of the universe or the force. Zori is a word for Japanese shoes resembling flipflops. Add bliss and you get a symbol for "follow your bliss." She even says hey, "wanna come with me?" and gives him a token that lets him make a free-will travel decision. He overcomes his animal lust nature, his spice running acquisitive lower nature, moves into his Luke Skywalker consciousness, and chooses the dangerous, sacrificial, courageous, heroic road of his efforts to help the resistance. In doing so he playfully invites his bliss to follow him, which she does in the end.

     
    #142 Sheddai_Lightkeeper, Apr 29, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2022
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  3. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    That is an interesting in depth look at the ST...but as Lucas no longer has anything to do with SW and how the story of the sequels was told, I have no idea if Campbell's ideology has any bearing on modern SW films.

    Maybe TLJ...but Abrams doesn't seem like the type of director to be so intense when making films. He just likes lots of thrills and action and very little in the way of 'inner meaning'. If you look at TLJ it was full of fascinating, fairy tale imagery but TROS was really just a computer game which borrowed from many other films and its writer, Terrio, actually said its story was 'what he'd wanted to see when he was eight'.
     
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  4. Sheddai_Lightkeeper

    Sheddai_Lightkeeper Rebel General

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    The inner meaning is really there. I have a hunch that the mythological framework came first, and then there was a lot of creative license in tacking a story onto it that ended up being very confusing.
     
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  5. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    He clearly believes the two are linked. With supremacy you get to be the author of your own success story. Even if it's false. Even if he feels empty and unfulfilled. Even if he feels he's lost more than he's ever had, once he's top dog that will validate everything.

    We already know that Kylo feels torn from what he said in The Force Awakens. Yet in TLJ he never expresses any doubt in the same way. TLJ was the time for Kylo to double down.
     
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  6. eeprom

    eeprom Prince of Bebers

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    I’m sorry, but I’m not seeing how we’re saying anything different here. His goal to dominate others is motivated by his inherent lack of self. That was articulated during the interrogation scene in TFA. One is the symptom. One is the cause. He thinks taking that control will eliminate his doubt. Just like he thought murdering his father would do the same. He was wrong on both. That much is simply the story.

    The question is how much the character himself is aware of this being the case. And just like in TFA (“you know it’s true”), I think he’s entirely aware. But he believes he’s gone too far to ever turn back (“It's too late”). Which is exactly what he speaks to in TROS when asserting Rey is in that same position. “You can't go back to her now. Like I can't.”
    He feels torn throughout the trilogy. That never stops. Not until he makes the final turn back. That’s the arc. That’s what defines him. The core of his journey in TLJ is all about his doubt. It propels everything he does, every action he takes. It’s all to silence that indecision - the pull he feels toward the light. It’s introduced in TFA. It’s advanced in TLJ. And it’s concluded in TROS.

    I recommend rewatching that last scene of him in TLJ again. Really study the look on his face and his physical performance. It’s not the look of a man who lost that big deal at work that was supposed to fix everything. And it’s not even really the look of a man who did land that big deal, but discovers it didn’t actually fix anything. It’s the look of a man whose family left him while he was only focused on making that big deal. And now he realizes how pointless it all was. But that’s the bed he’s made for himself to lay in now.

    He’s in the room where his mother had just been. But she’s gone now, because of him. He’s watching this woman he’d made a profound bond with shut the door on him. She’s gone now, because of him. He’s cradling these dice that represent his father in his hand as they disappear. He’s gone now, because of him. We leave him more lost and alone than he’s ever been. It’s an echo of Rey’s line after the mirror cave “I thought I'd find answers here. I was wrong. I'd never felt so alone.”

    Juxtapose that moment with what immediately follows: our heroes, back together, joyously embracing one another. Those moments are purposely paired. One is showing us comradery and exuberance, even though they’ve never had less power, they still have hope. The other is showing us misery and isolation, even though he’s never had more power, he only has despair. He’s mourning the loss of those connections. Not those goals.

    And perhaps he tells himself later that they were necessary sacrifices that will be worth it in the end, but that’s definitely not what’s happening in that scene. In that moment, he’s simply alone. And that’s where TROS picks back up and walks him through his abrupt, yet logical, redemption.
     
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  7. Sheddai_Lightkeeper

    Sheddai_Lightkeeper Rebel General

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    Here is a possible way to look at it.

    We can go back to the GL originals to find meaning in the final trilogy. "That's no moon." (death star) What is a moon that is not an actual moon, where the divine feminine is held captive in darkness, where the darkness is destroying whole worlds, and the goddess has to be rescued by the light that walks across the sky? (male Luke Sky walker) It's a metaphor for consciousness, based on the sun and moon, as seen in religions. The big crater in the death star is a symbol of the cup, or female. The entire story takes place in our minds, and it's about our world, not outer space. Joseph Campbell said a dream is a private myth, and a myth is a public dream. In the final dream, the death star broken world in the watery birthing fluid is a place of rebirth for Ben Solo, and for the collective consciousness- a virgin spiritual birth through love. The spirit of the divine female mother goddess Leia, the light on the moon, is there, as is his father in spirit. Ben Solo is the child of the goddess and a material-world regular guy, and Ben has his death and resurrection- second birth out of the waters of the unconscious. The word ben itself means son. Benjamin means the son of the right hand, or south direction, the direction from which the light is born on Christmas winter solstice. This is a hint at the esoteric meaning of Kenobi's name change also.

    Ben Solo = son of Solo, humanity restored. (?)
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 29, 2022, Original Post Date: Apr 29, 2022 ---
    Here's another example. In a story we take literally, broom boy is just a kid sweeping the floor. But in a dream, poem, work of art, myth, a broom is a pole with two opposite ends. One end of the broom is the upper end closer to the sky, and we hold and control it, so it could represent the forces at work in our minds . In esoteric symbolism, a stick represents the will. The lower end of the broom is the instrument closest to the material earth, that's purifying, cleaning, straightening up the material world and getting rid of the rubbish. If it's not worked by the upper end, the material ground will remain dirty, covered in dirt like lost civilizations. For a kid who is inspired by the story of Luke Skywalker, handling the broom, it's the influence that Luke Skywalker has on the consciousness of people, that spreads across the whole galaxy, that's going to be the force that straightens things up in coming generations, as Luke Skywalker consciousness ascends. The Rise of Sky walker.

    Here's another example. The color violet is a symbol of transcendence and spirituality, the top end of the mace of power, that was lost in the GL prequels when Mace Windu's violet lightsaber fell out the window with his hand. They put it back in with Holdo, who represents the "divine spark" inside of us, that turns into the really big spark when she crashes the ship. That's why there was talk about the spark. Otherwise, she is an odd character. Then it appears in Zorri Bliss. Notice that both are in female form, not male like Mace Windu. The female is the goddess, nature, the material world, and this is the divine coming back into the consciousness of the material bodies of the galaxy, as the light of Luke Skywalker is projected across the whole galaxy.

    That makes the whole trilogy Princess Leia's trilogy. She likely would have played a bigger role in the final movie if she lived. She was coming alive with the force, slipping away from materiality, and she (princess/goddess trapped in the moon, then bound to the materialist booger Jabba) is symbolically the place where the light of Luke Skywalker (sun) shines, as the head of the material forces working against darkness. The color violet left in the prequel trilogy and returned in the sequel trilogy. It's the loss of the light in the world, the fall of the temple, and the return of light in the world, and the restoration of the temple in the end, when the people rise up.
     
    #147 Sheddai_Lightkeeper, Apr 29, 2022
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2022
  8. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    What's all this 'gif' business...?
     
  9. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Do you know the scene in The Princess Bride? The boy being read the story starts impatiently guessing what must happen next in the story his grandfather is telling him.
    But his grandfather tells him no that's not what happens next. Which makes the boy angry and question why his grandfather would tell him such a story. His grandfather then asks if he can be allowed to continue to read the story as it's written. Of course many of the things that the boy predicted come true by the end of the story.
     
  10. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    Ah....thanks. Thought for a moment you meant I was grandad...not that old - yet.:eek:
     
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  11. Sheddai_Lightkeeper

    Sheddai_Lightkeeper Rebel General

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    Throwing all this out there for anyone interested in breaking through the surface.

    Interesting to ponder: I posted before that when Luke and Leia were separated, her name changed to Organa, and that organa is Latin for instruments. Where Luke is the leader of the inner, spiritual world, Leia leads the instruments of the rebellion and resistance in the material world, and she is getting lighter and lighter, floating through space, less attached to materiality, closer to ascension as a full moon goddess, more powerful in the force, lit by the spiritual light of Luke Skywalker the sun, with whom she has a close relationship that we're instructed is more like a sibling relationship than romantic love. Instruments= the material that we have to work in the world, and the material people playing out the drama of our immaterial inner lives on the material stage of our outer lives. In music, a solo is played out on a single instrument, by an individual consciousness. We learn that Leia and Han's relationship is different, that it's one that bears fruit or offspring. In TROS, that offspring, the son of Solo has to combat seven things (Knights of Ren) starting with himself, down in the depths of the unconscious. Here, he receives the sword of light that he uses to take them on before he can get to the female. Think about it. They are weilding the light of the sun and the moon together, symbolically. To destroy the darkness, Rey crossed the swords into a solar cross, same as in old vampire movies. And what are vampires afraid of? The light that destroys them.
    hororofdracula1958.jpg reycross.jpg

    When the temple fell in the loss of Anakin's higher consciousness, and he killed his connection to the divine, Padme, their kids, the light of the sun and the moon, the eternal spiritual light and the dark transitory material world that receives that light are divided up, and the light is sent out into the desert, that's so sere they must farm water, and where we see two suns. There are two sources of light to think about, that TROS ending reminds us. Also, in esoteric symbolism the water he's missing is the moon. Fire and water. Sun and moon. Gold and silver. King and queen. Leia the moon in darkness calls out for help with illumination, a little help from the light side of the force. Luke and Leia are royalty, a governing force, offspring of queen Padme- the sacred lotus. http://symboldictionary.net/?p=1774 Interestingly, the word ben means son, and luke means light.

    Luke, the light adventures to learn about his relationship to the place where that light will shine and transform the material world-- the hope of the returning sun after night and winter of the dark father, or the moonlight after the new moon. In TROS, the sun and moon ascend into the light, and away goes the darkness. Watched any other way but poetically, as mythology, the end is meaningless. You see the tired older woman with the "camel," standing by the young female Rey in the material world, and Leia. This is the young first quarter moon maiden Rey, full moon mother Leia, and last quarter- crone. The triple goddess female moon, and the male sun, Luke. Translation: there has been a completion of the cycle of falling into darkness, and returning to the light.
     
    #151 Sheddai_Lightkeeper, Apr 30, 2022
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  12. Sheddai_Lightkeeper

    Sheddai_Lightkeeper Rebel General

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    There's mythology to be found in every movie of the trilogy, whether the told story is any good or not. They maybe loaded in too much. The two swords buried into the ground in the last movie, that's symbolic. The lighting of Rey's yellow sword, the only yellow lightsaber in the entire saga, made out of the staff of will carries deep meaning if you examine it. Difficult to explain in a few lines, in the visible spectrum of light, there are seven colors:

    :rolleyes: Violet high frequency (Mace Windu, Holdo, Zorii Bliss) Transcendence, divinity, unity. The top end of broom boy's broom handle, the top of the mace of power, the crown chakra. Immaterial force ghosts. Living lotus with 1000 petals.

    (blue)Indigo blue and Blue Mind, intuition (toto and scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz) Rey and Kylo struggle over Anakin's blue lightsaber. This is a mental tug of war.

    (green)Green (heart chakra, Luke's ROTJ lightsaber, Yoda) Heart, love, care (Tinman in the Wizard of Oz, where they want to get to the emerald green city so Dorothy can return home, which is where TROS ends, at home) The middle color between the polar opposites. Balance in the force.

    (lightsaber)Yellow (Rey) active Will and courage, guards the green, blues, and violet, upper immaterial elements of our consciousness- the temple or fanum- inside the temple. (Lion in the Wizard of Oz) Active will also symbolized in the staff carried by Rey. The courageous actions of the instruments- the material people in the material world- outside the immaterial temple of consciousness or spiritual world.

    (guard) (vicious)(crossguard)Orange and Red (Red= Sith, the soil at the end of TLJ) Low frequency. Base consciousness, root chakra. Profane/pro fanum- outside the temple. (Wicked witch of the West, the direction of nightfall, in the W. of O.) Material underworld where Palpatine, drained of spirit, sits on a dead lotus in a material, machine-like state. Opposite polarity of force ghost= material drained of all spirit. Spiritual death, because we are dealing with personified aspects of ourselves, not actual characters.


    The esoteric meaning of the temple of Solomon, Sol o mon, is seen in the seal of Solomon-- an upper triangle, the sun/spirit LUKE, and the downward triangle- the moon, matter LEIA.
    That seal also appears in the eastern heart chakra symbol, anahata.
    This is the symbol of Luke and Leia's swords brought together and placed into the ground by Rey.
    [​IMG]
    They come together in the center, joining the spiritual light of enlightened consciousness, and the material world. This is the non-sexual generation- the virgin birth. Rey is like Luke and Leia's daughter, but not their daughter. And, she takes the family name. Symbolism. Her material body is of base material- Palpatine, which perhaps means that which can be touched, perceived by our senses, or base material. (Latin palpatus) All of the characters are inside of you, as personifications of energies working in you. She has transcended ego, and no longer identifies with the body, but the consciousness that informs that body, as a Sky walker, a ray of light in the sky as opposed to the base consciousness of the material world. The world is saved through Jesus Christ/Buddha/Luke Skywalker enlightened consciousness. When the collective consciousness falls, the whole world goes with it.

    In the Wizard of Oz, another occult allegory, fire and water (sun and moon) are also brought together just as the wicked witch of darkness melts. Rian Johnson invites people to compare the two movies by modelling Snoke's throne room after the Wizard's throne room. Luke and Leia coming together is the balance in the force, restored by Anakin in the mind above the color green, and Rey in the material world below the color green. Ben fights for all seven against the dark knights of Ren, is thrown down a hole like Palpatine, but climbs back up and the dark son of the moon gives his life to the waxing moon, who puts down darkness. She stands on the planet surface, between the upper spiritual world, and the lower material underworld where Palpatine is buried, and she's guarding this balance between the spiritual and material world, light and darkness, with the lightsaber of a temple guardian. Ben has crossed the rainbow bridge to Asgard, all seven colors of the rainbow in white light. A symbol. There's a character Jannah. Jannah is from the Koran, and is the garden of heaven. "We created above you seven paths, from which is drawn a heaven of seven tiers."

    The force is able to be used for healing our wormy material underworld nature. Padme couldn't be healed because she never needed saving. Anakin did. If he wanted to save her, he needed to let her save him.
     
  13. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    I wish someone with your brains had made TROS. Serious, not sarcastic.
     
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  14. Sheddai_Lightkeeper

    Sheddai_Lightkeeper Rebel General

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    I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto!
    snokewizthrones.jpg

    In Snoke's throne room, there's a struggle for the blue lightsaber-- a struggle in consciousness between light and dark, and in the end, they need to get spirit and matter together, light and dark together, fire and water together, Luke and Leia together, Male and female together, find the balance, kiss and make up. Holdo, violet lady, comes in like a lightning bolt-- the divine spark enters, and boom! Now there are two ends of the sword, that have to be brought together and mended. We see this again and again-- mending, healing, fixing, bringing together, sweeping up.

    In the Wizard's throne room, there's Dorothy gathering together three aspects of her consciousness- brain, heart, courage. They have to work together to get the broom-- the stick again-- from the witch. When they get it, they bring together the water and the fire, and the evil witch melts away, giving them control of the whole broom stick.
     
    #154 Sheddai_Lightkeeper, May 1, 2022
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    In reference to the Seal of Solomon mentioned earlier, the hexagram. I think what we see here is a similar symbol.

    rebels.jpg
    "Unlearn what you have learned." (yoda 2) Imagine that it is the silhouette of a crescent moon, tipped onto its side like a cup or grail, with a robed, mitre-capped hierophant with his arms raised in the air, standing on top..
    Here's the wikipedia definition for hierophant: "A hierophant is a person who brings religious congregants into the presence of that which is deemed holy. As such, a hierophant is an interpreter of sacred mysteries and arcane principles."
    hierophant2.jpg Now think about what that means.
     
  16. Sheddai_Lightkeeper

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    Here are a few more to add to the understanding of the final movies, and the saga.
    The jedi logo, and the sufi heart. There you also see the crescent and a star again in the sufi symbol. Sufism is Islamic mysticism.
    jedi.jpg sufi.jpg
    And here is a neopagan triple goddess mentioned earlier. Taken from online, sorry do not remember source. But it's just for discussion. The center would be Princess Leia. The left young woman would be Rey. The aged woman on the right would be the elder lady in the desert at the end of TROS, played by Ann Firbank. And, Luke is the sun in the myth. Masculine spiritual light, received by the feminine material body, the moon. The crescent moon, a cup or grail. Moon symbolism: (death star) It is a moon, Obi-wan. it is. A dark one. I wouldn't be surprised if they put a younger "camel" lady in the Kenobi series.

    hjhjh.jpg
     
    #156 Sheddai_Lightkeeper, May 1, 2022
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  17. Sheddai_Lightkeeper

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    Finally, (getting tired of reading? That's why they put all this into movies, dip it in candy, blow stuff up, and have half-naked people say it. Keeps you awake.) This symbol is from The Last Jedi. It's the prime Jedi mosaic on Ahch-to.
    jediprime.jpg
    which is similar to this in Taoism:
    yy.jpg Yin and Yang, Moon and Sun. If you are lurking and reading, sign up and add what you've noticed, or your comments.
     
    #157 Sheddai_Lightkeeper, May 1, 2022
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  18. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    I noticed the symbols, in TLJ the most, which is one of the reasons I thought that the ST would end with Kylo and Rey between them bringing an end to the repetitive cycle of dark versus light.
    The 'yin and yang' isn't black and white. It's black with a touch of white, representing Kylo - a darksider who still feels 'the pull to the light' and Rey - a lightsider with touches of the dark in her, as shown by her quick temper and tendency for violence.
     
  19. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
    1030th Grand Admiral ***** (Mod)

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    Just wondering, @Sheddai_Lightkeeper. With all these "glimpsing the real truth behind the veil" posts you're making, are you suggesting that George Lucas et al. are in fact massive occultists seeding Star Wars with keys of enlightenment? Or are you proposing that GL "tapped into" some heavinly insights, or whatever? Or what?
     
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  20. madcatwoman17

    madcatwoman17 Rebelscum

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    It worked for Dune....
     
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