Where are the plot holes?

yeah there was, but thats why I said progress its transport. there were no nazgul beyond Mordor at the time of the fellowship. so they could have got it as far as gondor or Rohan easy

 

What does everyone think about the issue mentioned in the following article:-

https://www.theringer.com/2017/12/20/16800970/vice-admiral-holdo-maneuver-the-last-jedi

Would you consider it an example of a plot-hole?

 

I did think about this. because I always assumed that when something goes as fast or faster than light it basically takes on the properties of light, becoming immaterial. if it didn't that would mean a ship travelling at light speed that's path intersected with a piece of space debris would be torn apart by colliding with it. so I assumed light travel gave the ship similar properties to light otherwise a lot of ships would be torn apart by debris in space.

 

Do you specifically mean the Fellbeasts? Because the Nazgul did operate outside Mordo on horseback. But I do see what you mean. My only reservation would be that since Tolkien never defined the extent of the Nazgul and Fellbeast capabilities, perhaps it is hard to create a complete contradiction.

 

I keep seeing what DOESN’T count as a plot-hole. I’d be thrilled if you could provide an example of what you DO consider a legitimate plot-hole. You know, for reference. Thanks in advance.

 

Yeah I mean, weather they could or couldn't actually fly the eagles doesn't really matter for my example. the point is, if they could fly the eagles but gandalf never used that it would show both a plot hole and a poor military descision, it works just as well in the hyperthetical to show it can be both things at once. but for the record, The eagles operate fine over Isengurd when they save Gandalf, so they certainly could have gotten that far, which borders Rohan.

Also for anyone wanting more definitions of 'Plot Hole' the Oxford dictionary definition is a lot looser-

'An inconsistency in the narrative or character development of a book, film, television programme, etc.

‘there are a few plot holes and some moments of serious implausibility’'

 

Regarding Luke's character it's not about Luke being the same after 25 years, the problem is in the narrative, the last thing we know of Luke is what we saw in the ROTJ, his main story arch is that against everyone's advice he had faith that his father could be saved, even to the point of giving up his life instead of killing him, and then, the next thing we know about Luke is that he contemplated murdering his nephew and student in his sleep. Don't you see the inconsistency here?

 

Im not sure of the technicality here.... I didn't make the post that is showing up that you are quoting.... lol

 

I was curious after you asked the question, so I also googled it just now

So it appears that the LoTR lore, the eagles are established as an independent set of creatures that do not actually take orders. They are portrayed as their own kingdom, making decisions in their best interest.

Also, Sauron with his eye, and his allies, were watching all access ways to find the ring bearer. So taking to the skies with the ring would pretty much directly catch the attention of Sauron's minions.

Those explanations seem sufficient, but regardless, I think you brought up an interesting point though

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 21, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 21, 2017 ---

Oops I might have misplaced the name tags when replying. Sorry about that

 

The eagles reluctance to provide more help is never explained in the movies, it definitely seems ridiculous that they do not use them more to their advantage.
The explanation I remember from different books is that just like Gandalf and the rest of the Istari the eagles were not allowed to take a more active role in the conflict, the people of middle earth were supposed to overcome their difficulties on their own merit. Both the istari and the eagles were there to provide guidance and minor assistance, or else the Valar could just have gone to middle earth and destroyed Sauron with little effort, the eagles are servants of Manwe, king of the Valar and so is Gandalf who is a Maia just like Sauron.

 

Lol.. yea, on the first one I was like I didn't make that post! haha

 

Luke wanted to live out the rest of his life cut off from the Force. So where did he end up? Ahch-To, the place where the first Jedi temple was located. Shouldn't he stay at some remote planet where there was no Jedi temple, Sith shrine, etc., in order to be completely isolated from the Force?

 

He described it as the hardest place to find in the galaxy. That was the reason he went there. Though perhaps when he did first go there his mind wasn’t made up on the Jedi ending.

 

Except he told people that he was looking for the first Jedi temple, which left a clue to where he could be located. He should have relocated to another (remote still hard-to-find) planet once he made up his mind.

 

^^Maybe that wasn't his first intention going there.

 

He didn't leave the clue. Lor San Tekka assumed that was where he'd go.

As Han says in TFA:

The people who knew him the best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple.

 

I'm all out of material guys. I got nothing.

Like all the plot holes in this film!

Gettit?

 

This troubled me at first, as well.

But, consider this.

Hux was as upset as some of us are/were with the situation. He says something like this (if I recall correctly, only saw the movie twice): "What is the point of all this, if we cannot blow up three tiny Cruisers?". See, the same incredulous thought process some of us naturally show.

Then, the FO officer replied to Hux something like "They're faster and lighter, sir". I think he adds something like: "They can't lose us, but can stay at enough distance where our weapons are innefective against their shields". It was something along those lines, but someone who has seen the movie more times may please correct me.

About the fighters.

Hux tells Ren at some point that they cannot provide cover to the TIE fighters (including Ren) because they're out of range of the Star Destroyers, and we even see a couple of TIEs getting destroyed by the Rebellion cruiser batteries quite easily when the rebels decided to go full speed with reinforced rear shields, at Leia's command. Ren pulls out, and we never see FO fighters again, because again, they would be easily shot down by the rebel cruisers, and the star destroyers can't help them anymore. This is plausible as I've played X-Wing back in the day and cruisers can be quite formidable against fighters if there's not enough cover/distractions from other capital ships, unless overwelming numbers of fighters including TIE bombers are used, which we don't know if they had and/or would be effective as well due to speed/cover issues.

So, to summarize the chase subplot, and analyse the tactical situation, which is central to the film:

The FO's fleet (star destroyers, TIE Fighters and Snoke's ship) cannot reach the rebel Cruisers because "they're lighter and faster", and the TIEs would be vulnerable if they went alone. We have all the reasons to believe that the rebel cruiser's anti-fighter laser batteries are pretty much intact (we even see them take down 2 TIE's easily), only the rebels fighters have been destroyed. And yes, it's plausible that fighters alone are no match against 3 cruisers. Fighters are useful to take down other fighters, unless you bring TIE Bombers, but those are even more vulnerable and you'd need to bring overwelming numbers of fighters and risk losing a lot of them.

Then, given the situation, it's all about tactics and risk assessment.

We're said that the rebels have 18 hours of fuel left right? (let's assume that is true and discuss the fuel issue elsewhere, if justified be, please bear with me).

So, what would you do if you were Hux in that situation, who is the General of the fleet, and the one ultimately in charge of the entire military arm of the FO?

Wait 18 hours and destroy what's left of the Resistance without any extra hassle, possibly without even losing a single ship (and the resistance loses two of the three capital ships in the process, which adds to the idea that the plan is sound and plausible).

Or, call and bring in re-inforcements from elsewhere in the galaxy to block or intercept them. And/or possibly also bring a full complement of tie bombers and/or other advanced tie fighters risking heavy losses and other "faster and lighter cruiser ships"? And, who said it's fast to call in re-inforcements and coordinate all that sort of thing?

So, I think I'd have made the same decision as Hux in that situation, if I was in command. Wait 18 hours and that's the end of them without any extra hassle. Remember that as far as the FO is concerned, the rebels are desperate and don't have any way to escape.

Of course, Leia and Holdo's plan was to reach an abandoned rebellion base and fortify there, which is also quite plausible since remember that the Resistance fleet jumped out of light speed maybe because that was their plan all along?

So, taking into account all this, I'm convinced that the entire chase situation is plausible and logical from a military strategy and tactics point of view and it doesn't bother me personaly.

I hope this was useful to help others who could be troubled by this as well. And, please feel free to disagree and especially to provide counter-arguments as I'd like to know about other points of view.

Thanks for reading.

 

Well said. There is something else I considered during last nights viewing - Snoke. Perhaps he ordered Hux to drag it out, maybe with the plan of getting Rey to witness their final destruction? He's that arrogant, he wouldn't have seen what was coming and it looked like the Rebels had no escape.

 

N/T