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Will Ben Solo be Redeemed?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by Adam812, Sep 19, 2018.

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WIll Ben Solo be redeemed in Episode IX?

  1. Yes

    48.6%
  2. No

    25.7%
  3. I don't know.

    25.7%
  1. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    His actions thus far don't have me expecting him doing good. So there's no fear that he could ruin his redemption story, because so far it's not a redemption story. He killed his father as a calculated move to get in Snoke's good graces. He did it sneakily and weasily, by giving his father false hope, luring him close where he's defenseless, knowing full well that he, Kylo was in absolutely no danger. Then he looked him in the eye and pretended to care while killing him. Before that he slaughtered a village, and tortured at least one of its inhabitants. He later tortures Poe, mortally wounds Finn, tortures Rey and later tries to turn her to the dark side. I'm certain I'm missing some more nastiness on his part, but that's already a pretty impressive list. That's not counting everything he's done since leaving Luke's teachings and becoming Kylo Ren, that's merely what we've seen in a span of weeks.

    When your most redeeming quality is not killing your mom, through hesitation no less, that's scraping the bottom of the barrel lol. If that' makes him a potential good guy, then I'm golden and punched my ticket past the pearly gates already lol. He squandered an opportunity to be good when he refused Rey. From a story telling perspective, that's a much better choice (imagine the MS accusations had that happened?), but looking through the eyes of the characters, I don't know how he can be seen as redeemable, especially based on his actions on Crait. Based on Kylo's actions on Crait, he could be scolding himself for his hesitation on shooting down his mother . After Crait there's no real tangible reason, based on any of his actions, to believe it's a redemption story for Kylo. You can hold on to hope, and it's certainly possible the writers take it that way, but it's entirely possible they don't. Everything remotely "good" (and that word is being stretched here) is lip service (seduction of the light) or just as possibly a catalyst to hurl him deeper into the abyss of the dark side.

    Kylo has yet to experience anything that has me believing this to be a redemption story, but it's certainly possible. Between contact with spirit Luke, haunting or otherwise. He may have to face the FO and a coup, that could help as well. His mother is still kicking around and that could and will likely be a factor in IX. Then there's Rey and his feelings for her, whatever those might be. He's isolated himself, he's pushed away anyone and everyone who's tried to care about him, I guess his biggest prospect is that he seems to be reaching rock bottom. The question will be how he reacts to that. Some people go terminal, their pride doesn't allow them the path to redemption, and that is just as likely to be his story than a come back.

    The come back would be interesting, because it would explore speculations some fans have had over Vader for decades. It could explore what would have happened had Vader survived. That could be interesting on Rey and Finn friendship dynamic, as well as Poe and Chewy. I would assume if this lead into the next trilogy, we'd be introduced to others who've suffered loss at Kylo's hands. I would hope they would formulate the story in such a way that it wouldn't invalidate the hate, anger and resentment toward Kylo, while at the same time show Kylo's struggle. In a way it would be like a fictional story saying "What would happen if Hitler turned good in 1941 or 42, tried to undo the harm he's done, after he's already committed so many atrocities?". Can it be done? (Not only can it be done for someone that evil to turn to good, but can it be done on film? Can it be done by Disney? The question, can it be done can be taken in so many ways.)

    A story like that could have immense depth and explore all sorts of fascinating questions. I don't think you can properly tell such a story with a clear cut answer at the end. It would have to be done in such a way that viewers walk away making their own conclusions, feeling mixed about it. At least that's what I think. SW often explores morality and ethics ect... but this would be on a different scale. It could incite a good deal of emotion. I went to HS with a Croation girl, and I remember our teacher (catholic school) suggesting that maybe Hitler asked for forgiveness at the end and could have made his way to heaven. That possibility upset that girl to no end, she left the class room in tears. It's a touchy subject, and that's why I have my doubts Disney will go that way, or if they do, do it proper justice. Because done right, it should evoke that kind of emotion imo.

    Edit: I will say this, if Disney/LFL want to get me back on board 100%, go there. Get dirty, tell this story and don't hold back. Dig deep into that well and come up with the muck and secrets hidden therein.

    If they do this, they go down this road, you'll see all the questions of MS, identity politics, SJW ect... it'll all disappear because the story will have the depth and intensity that such question would become superfluous. No one will care about those questions, they'll be so fascinated by the story being told, the audacity of the tale and the questions it asks.

    A story like this, for me, would make all the heart ache I had over TLJ worth it. I still won't think TLJ was necessary or any good, but the pay off of getting such a story would be more than worth it. I just want to point out one thing. A story such as this doesn't need subversion, or expansion upon current canon. The SW universe rich with infinite possibilities even within the loose rules it possesses. It's not super weapons or super powers that make SW, it's the human questions, the ethical, moral, not just of the powerful, but of the every person. We don't need DS 5, we don't need SD's pulled out of space, we need our gut twisted at the dilemma the heroes face on screen.
     
    #141 Sparafucile, Dec 11, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2018
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  2. Maximus

    Maximus Reel 2 Dialogue 2

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    this is deliciously different from how i feel about the things Ben has done so far... I love this character !!

    What was Vaders most redeeming quality before he died? not killing Luke?
    do we give Anakin an easy ride with his redemption just because he died? it seems odd to me that nobody ever really questioned his redemption but the thought of Ben (with an infinitely smaller villain CV) being redeemed and surviving seems to be a big no-no among many. thoughts?
    absolutely he has isolated himself now. The path he walks is down to him and only him.. as it always was.

    What he has done in the past has nothing to do with his ability to choose his own path tomorrow. If he slaughters every character we've ever known and blows up half the galaxy on thursday... he can still choose to leave the darkness on friday. it's not about redemption, forgiveness or the crimes he has committed.. it's about choice. It's not about everyone welcoming him home with open arms and Ben becoming the good guy.. I just want him to find some peace (and maybe something to smile about)
     
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  3. Sparafucile

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    I think the fact that Vader dies is his redeeming quality. We somehow see the epiphany in his metallic black eyes when he chooses to give his life for that of his son, to unleash himself almost literally from his master and onto his master. He takes responsibility in that moment. Maybe Vader needed to know that his act of salvation, for him, had to also be self sacrifice... his final act. There was no atoning for what he had done, the crimes, the atrocities, but he could make it right with the one person that still mattered to him in this world. His son (ok, maybe his daughter too, but this was a now or never moment.). He fought his son in a duel man to man. On some level I'm sure Luke realizes before the event of RotJ that Vader took it easy on him, quite probably because he was Vader's son. The relationship with Leia was different. Vader tortured her, without ever knowing who she was, what she was to him. It was definitely easier for Luke to see the good in him than it would have been for Leia.

    The problem is when you string together so many bad choices, it's hard to turn that pattern of behavior around. Hard is an understatement when it comes to Kylo. A big difference between Kylo and Vader is that Vader is formidable. You get a sense of honor behind Vader, he's not a weasel. Horrible person no doubt, but there's a back bone there. I don't get that from Kylo. I think that's something that if not needed, is certainly helpful when wanting to make a change. It took a superhuman amount of will power for Vader to do what he did in RotJ, and that was him knowing it was a moment and he dies. He didn't have to go on living to face his accusers, the ones who his actions have harmed. Instead, all he had to do is look into his sons eyes and see love there. Know that at least one living person would think upon him fondly after he died.

    That's what's fascinating if they do this with Kylo. He is very much a sneaky backstabber. He doesn't seem to abide by any rules. He can barely maintain control over himself. Those are traits that demonstrate a weak willed person. If he lives and tries to mend his ways, I don't see him doing it flawlessly. It will probably be messy. His weakness of character could end up harming those around him, and it would make great TV if it did. There should be a cost to having him around. That could be having to decide if you side with him, choosing his life over that of another's to which he'd done horrendous wrong. His tainted, bloody hands should be wiping on all those around him, painting his friends with the blood of the innocent he put to horrible death. More than that, it should test how far his friends, or anyone in any way associated with him will go to keep him safe enough to be useful. In my imagination, it could truly be an epic story.

    Kylo's a different beast to Vader. He's Wormtongue in LotR, but with more cunning, better at manipulation. He's a viper, it is in his nature to bite. A redemption story would mean him going against his very nature. At least to what we've been shown so far.

    My argument isn't so much upon what Kylo deserves. Until that entire story is told, I reserve judgment on that. To me it's more in what it means for him to survive. The cost it would have on those making that decision. It's like being a judge and letting a murderer, a known killer lose, and sentencing someone to keep him safe on top of that... at any cost. It's dirty and if they go that way, that would be great :D. I would relish seeing Kylo strive to atone for the wrongs he's done on many levels. My shadow would relish in seeing him suffer, my light would relish in his success. My empathy would look on in horror at the steps those around him would have to take to help him right the wrongs, or at least justify his going on living.
     
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  4. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    I think the issues people in general have with Kylo’s possible redemption compared to Vader’s is how invested they are in the stories. ANH when we see Vader go in to torture Leia, we are not yet invested in the character of Leia. When we see Vader stand by as an entire world of innocent people, we are not invested in that world or those people. There is very little connection to Leia or Alderaan at that time. So when it comes time for Vader to be redeemed we are able to forgive more easily.

    With Kylo, however, we are very invested in the character of Han Solo when he is killed by Kylo. Therefore this act carries more weight in the eyes of the fans and Kylo’s actions have become unforgivable in the eyes of many. This makes the idea of a redeemed Kylo as unpalatable to them.

    In the end if Kylo chooses a path back to the light and is redeemed, it won’t be much different then Vader’s from a story telling standpoint. However, because fans were more invested in Han, it makes it tougher for some to accept.
     
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  5. Sparafucile

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    Good point, I'm sure that is another aspect of it for many.

    It's like if someone, world forbid, kills a family member in a drunk driving accident. Yet people die in those accidents every year and usually we shake our heads, feel bad and go on with our lives forgetting about it and the strangers loss in seconds or minutes after hearing the news.
     
  6. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    my investment in Han Solo is exactly why Ben must be redeemed to me.
    Han deserves a good and powerful legacy.
    to me, justice for Han is not a lost dead Darkside son, it's a live son who's been saved to fulfill a better purpose.
     
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  7. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    It's true that Vader's actions are also unforgivable, but his motivations make more sense to me than Kylo Ren's do.

    Maybe there is a difference between forgiveness and redemption - as in, I don't forgive Anakin's actions, but on some level, I still like Anakin. With Kylo, not only are his actions unforgivable, but quite frankly I never liked him and probably never will.
     
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  8. Pawek_13

    Pawek_13 Jedi General

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    Fun fact - the word "redemption" is never used in any SW film to describe Anakin's redemption. Is "redeption" even the right word? What does redmption even mean? Let's look at the dictionary, shall we? So, here is what Oxford dictionary says on the matter: redemption - the action of saving or being saved from sin, error, or evil. However, according to Merriam-Webster, redemption is the act, process, or an instance of redeeming. What is "redeeming," then? Well, according to MW, it is "serving to offset or compensate for a defect." These two definitions are, in my mind, quite different. The former one is more passive, while the latter more active. Was Vader saved at the end of RotJ from sin, error, or evil? Yes, he was good again. Did Vader serve to offset or compensate for his defects by the end of RotJ? Depends on how much you believe the act of killing Palpatine and saving Luke compensate for these defects. Now it's time to return to the movies themselves.

    In TLJ what Luke did was described as "turning Vader."


    Also, the talk between Obi-wan and Luke isn't about Anakin's redemption. It's about whether Ani can still become once again a good man after beint turned by Palpatine.


    That's the crux of the story - can an evil person become good once again? Not "can Vader atone for his sins?" All people except for Luke believed the answer is no and by the end of Episode VI they were proven wrong. The question of what it takes for a person to atone for their wrongdoings is a really juicy and interesting one that I hope gets explored in a SW film but it's not what the story of Anakin (and for that matter Ben Solo, at least for now) is about.
     
    #148 Pawek_13, Dec 11, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
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  9. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I see it differently though. I personally always felt uninvested in Vader’s redemption, perhaps because Vader was just an element in Luke’s story, one of the challenges in Luke's character arc. Unlike Kylo, Vader never felt like a fully realised character. In TFA Kylo is presented as this somewhat unhinged executioner who questions his actions by admitting he feels "a call to the light". He is also presented as the son of our legacy characters, the centre of a family tragedy. Vader being redeemed was only desirable for Luke's sake, because we liked Luke and wished him a happy outcome out of his confrontation with his father. Kylo's redemption is desired not only for Han's and Leia's, but also because we sense that his evil, in spite the horror it has caused, is a mistake, a default rather than his true essence. We root for Kylo because we find his "evil" is both relatable and believable, as it hinges on psychological traumas not black and white definitions.
     
    #149 Kylocity, Dec 12, 2018
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  10. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Guest

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    Getting back to KyloBen. I think maybe I wasn't very clear on an earlier post.

    I think the story for Ben, as well as Rey, is going through different beats then those of Anakin and Luke. So when trying to draw comparison's it's hard to make it work. Purely speculation here, but I think we're getting a longer version, and that simply put not everyone's life can be compared side by side with another's.

    I stated earlier that I'm sure Anakin faced danger and conflict between Ep.I and II. I'm sure Luke did too in the years between IV and V. Rey doesn't have that time gap, so we delve directly into those adventures and learning moments that Anakin and Luke had off screen. The key difference however is that they are more important to the overall story, and thus RJ felt they needed to be explored on film instead of in a time gap (some say his hands were tied, I'm not a part of that camp, but that's a discussion for another thread). Ben's path also is influenced by that, and I think that since Kylo and Rey are connected, there's a feel that it's needed to explore both, even while one may suffer on screen because the audience needs to know what happens to the other.

    For example, some say Rey didn't do much in TLJ to move her character forward. I agree, however Kylo did, he overturned Snoke, and that would have been wholly unsatisfying had we learned that in the crawl, as well as a waste of a pivotal dramatic moment on screen. So in a way Rey is forced along a more benign story arc in TLJ due to having to flesh out Kylo and his rise to supremacy. It's not that Rey has no arc, it's that it's not comparable to that of Luke and Anakin, because it isn't meant to. TLJ is about Kylo and Ben and Rey is essentially there for the ride. What Rey is going through is basically Luke's "Splinter of the mind's eye" novel version, while Kylo has some more story added to his character that is relevant to the story moving forward.

    Because of this, I think the saga will be dragged out. There will be a conclusion on some points after IX, but I think it's intended to have some unresolved questions, mainly on Rey, because she'll likely essentially be where Luke was after ESB after IX. That's my best guess and theory anyways. Now that Rey is not a Skywalker, this story has shifted from her to Ben. To resolve the Skywalker legacy, it has to, and it ultimately has made Rey a secondary lead, or shared lead with Kylo. We'll likely get future adventures of Rey past IX, but those will use the ST as her ANH and partially her ESB.

    So depending what they do with Kylo, though I more than half expect he dies, I just don't know under what circumstances, the story will shift back to Rey. The big difference and part of the confusion is because of this link between the two, the story can't follow the same beats as the OT and PT. The OT could have had something similar between Luke and Leia, but that story chose to keep Leia in the dark until the very end.

    And yes, before someone points it out, assuming that I'm unaware, I know this is all head canon on my part lol. It's my way of rationalizing and maintaining hope for future saga films. For a proper yet open ended finale to the ST. All this is to say that I'm at a point that I need to believe, to make this all work in my head, that for Rey and Kylo to work for me, I need to believe the overall story is progressing more slowly, that the tracks don't run parallel to those of the OT and PT.

    The heroes are facing pivotal challenges at different times in their lives, and sometimes, some of the challenges we're seeing are not even intended to be pivotal for the character we think it's intended for. It's a matter of circumstance. It's not that it's unimportant, but it's that it's not "No, I am your father." important. I think in some cases we are getting lessons Luke learned between ANH and ESB.

    I'm sure the first time Luke learned to levitate something was a big moment for him, but we never got that on screen. The assumption I always had was that he did this in a controlled environment before we see him do it on Hoth. My assumption further head canon's that he could probably do it with ease before ESB in those controlled environments. He needed that type of mastery over that force skill to be able to focus and do it when he was in a compromised situation. Again, head canon, but it seems to fit a certain logic.

    I think some of the exposition we get both on Rey and Kylo are similar to Luke first levitating an item in a controlled environment, while others are pivotal. I don't think we'll ever really be able to distinguish between which are which, simply because life doesn't work that way. The films are simply said, constructed differently, and the characters are experiencing things differently, and that is pretty accurate to life imo.
     
  11. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Force Sensitive

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    Well, I think he can be saved/redeemed/turned from the dark side. It is certainly possible. And as someone above, was it @FN-3263827 said, I totally get why some want to see him redeemed. I don't count myself in amongst that group, but I totally get it.

    Having said that, I love Kylo Ren. I love this guy! I want to see him finally win even if it just because I want to see another Saga Trilogy. Personally, if it were up to me, he would get over this "let the past die" crap and dedicate himself to rebuilding the Sith. I would want Rey, under the guidance of Luke and Obi-Wan (perhaps even Yoda and Anakin) to rebuild the Jedi order, but make it more independent of the government (see the new Qui-Gon Jinn issue of Star Wars: Age of the Republic comics to see what I mean).

    I just don't buy this line that they are ending the Saga films at 9. No way. I know that's what they say, but there is just too much money they'd be leaving on the table. I can see them abandoning the "saga films" for a few years and then returning to them. Maybe doing them like the "Avengers" entries in the MCU?
     
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  12. Legend66

    Legend66 Rebel Commander

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    There is much more potential for sequels in 10-15 years if he lives. He doesn't have to be a 100% redeemed by the end of the film but he only has to save the day for which to build a redemption arc for future sequels.

    He is to much of an interesting character to take the easy way out by having Rey win and kill him at the end of the movie.

    i would like this to happen in Ep 9:

    - Kylo spends first 1/3 of the movie looking for answers with his knights in temples or wherever.
    - Could come across a force ghost of Anakin putting some doubts in head about the direction he is heading in.
    - Luke to appear to him also.
    - If Leia dies maybe that could also have a massive effect on him staying on the darkside.
    - End the movie with him helping Rey and having him disappear with the everyone assuming he died trying to help everyone.

    Fast forward 10-15 years and they could do another trilogy with Kylo on a quest to seek complete redemption with Luke in tow giving him advice ect. Mark Hamil will be in his mid 70's though so depending if he is in good health they could get him on for another 2-3 movies.
     
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  13. Lylo Ren

    Lylo Ren Rebel General

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    Yes to all of this.
     
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  14. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Crazy Old Wizard
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    His parents will always forgive him because they love him. I will never forgive the monster and serpent who goes by the name of Kylo Ren, who has committed heinous acts of violence on behalf of the First Order. He has killed 2 elder statesman's of the Resistance, his father, Lor San Tekka, and numerous denizens of Jakku, and countless others. Kylo Ren, leader of the Knights of Ren, I hope you cease to exist and die an incredibly satisfying death. I hope the Resistance won't forgive him either for killing numerous individuals that have fought for their cause. Its ok to forgive such a monster, if you wish, I have no qualms about that, but for me, he should be punished with his life.

     
    #154 Rogues1138, Dec 27, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
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