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SPECULATION The Third Order, The Knights of Ren?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by Bluestreaking, Feb 24, 2015.

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  1. Bluestreaking

    Bluestreaking Imperial Grand Admiral with Bluish skin

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    "Long have we kept the Sith and Jedi in balance, the Force has come undone, to save it we must now... Create balance"

    Well some of you have seen my discussions on the idea of a Third Order alongside the Jedi and Sith in the past. It was one of my hallmarks when I first arrived at the state before eventually dying out as rumors seemed to be pointing in the opposite direction. Well with the latest stuff from MSW the Third Order has received a breath of fresh air to the point I feel it now deserves its own thread for speculation.

    Here is how it goes

    For millennia as the Jedi and Sith have fought there has been a third order drifting behind the scenes observing the conflict and trying to keep the two equal in power. They function under the belief that the Jedi and Sith bring balance to the force by being equal in strength (a falsehood as balance comes from the eradication of the Sith). So when Luke defeated the Sith it was a huge blow to this order and they feel that the turmoil the galaxy finds itself in is from the resulting unbalance.

    One of the functions of this third order is collecting artifacts of the Jedi and Sith conflict, including potentially the lightsaber of Jedi Knights Anakin and Luke Skywalker. To the common people members of the order appear to be nothing more than eccentric and wealthy relic hunters.

    Adam Driver's character is a member of this order, but he has overthrown and defeated his mentor and master before the film begins. In his normal life Driver is a wealthy Imperial aristocrat and uses his influence in the Imperial Navy to fund his relic hunting. Driver's character is a Sith fanatic and holds far too much appreciation for their beliefs compared to his old master. This has opened his mind to a powerful Sith entity that is using him to find "The Apprentice of Skywalker." This isn't my original creation, it was told to me by a person I met when discussing Adam Driver's character in the early days of filming and he told me this amongst other things, claiming to be someone in the know. His credibility is dubious and I haven't been in contact with him since but something about this theory stuck with me.

    Here is where things get even more interesting, my speculations. I believe that "Kylo Ren" is a title as discussed in one of my other threads, a title given to the master of the order. Driver overthrew his master, the previous Kylo Ren, and has taken on the mantle by the start of the film. I have danced around this next idea, sometimes supporting it sometimes hating it, and consider it an addition to the Third Order theory mentioned previously and not part of the theory itself. I think MvS was a Kylo Ren, and maybe Driver's old master. Perhaps in the rumored flashback the reason Rey runs is because she sees that MvS was once Kylo Ren and the man who killed her family.

    So this should serve as a general outline of the theory and my current additions to it. I can answer any questions you might have about it and would like thoughts and additions and skepticism about the theory
     
    #1 Bluestreaking, Feb 24, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2015
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  2. onetrickpony

    onetrickpony Rebel General

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    [​IMG]
    I imagine a third party in somewhat of the form of what is known as Illuminati (Mainstream Conspiracy Theory)...hidden and very secretive.
    Having like Bluestreak said some kind of interest for the force itself and it´s movement and fluctuations.My theory is that they do not seek balance or at least not in that way we term balance.Balance for them is in the form of chaos...or this constant tug or friction ...like the rythm of the force itself.Ebb and floods.Im at lost why this would be of interest to these people or entities..and have no theory for that.
     
    #2 onetrickpony, Feb 24, 2015
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  3. Pastor Barndog

    Pastor Barndog Force Attuned

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    I think the change in bad guys is that the empire is joined by rebel hardliners. To further point out that our heroes are "against all flags" the new sect of rebels that are building a planet killer also have a dark side wielder who may fancy himself a Darth or after seeking more power becomes one. That is a lot of change for who is good and bad. A third vein of force users clouds the very clear distinctions of good and evil.
     
    #3 Pastor Barndog, Feb 24, 2015
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  4. DarthMoonlight

    DarthMoonlight Rebelscum

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    Sounds nice, much too complicated for a disney sw film though
     
    #4 DarthMoonlight, Feb 24, 2015
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  5. Luuke22

    Luuke22 1030th Lieutenant (Jr Mod)

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    Obligatory reference to the old EU: if there is a Third Order revealed in TFA, I would love to hear references to other orders, ones that don't necessarily involve themselves with galactic conflicts. Maybe Luke's hiding spot is on a world that has it's own Force-using sect, one who is focused on maintaining stability on their own planet rather than the "Balance" of light and dark. In older novels, we were introduced to a number of sects like this (Aing-Tii Monks, Fallanassi, Mind Walkers, The Potentium). Heck, the Witches of Dathomir are canon now, and could arguably be called The Third Order (they may skew to the Dark Side, but not as a means to Unlimited Power). Point being, I don't think a Third Order needs to necessarily be on the same grand scale as the Jedi or the Sith, they could be bystanders in the war that get sucked into the middle of things.
     
    #5 Luuke22, Feb 25, 2015
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  6. Suicide Samurai

    Suicide Samurai Rebel General

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    It could be a cool way to have bad guys without having them be a "New Sith," and while I love the Sith, I think new films/new rules might be refreshing.

    I really hope that Disney is planning a long-game similar to the MarvelCU for their films--7-9 and the spin offs set-up a noew trilogy, free of the trappings of the prior films, but built on them.

    Something like the idea you have relayed could be fun, and build towards Star Wars "EVENT" films.
     
    #6 Suicide Samurai, Feb 25, 2015
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  7. Darth Rimbaud

    Darth Rimbaud Rebel General

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    Spot on about the "newness." It would be a good way to have a villain that doesn't totally ruin the potency of Luke's victory and Vader's redemption in ROTJ.
     
    #7 Darth Rimbaud, Feb 25, 2015
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  8. MarsPhoenix

    MarsPhoenix Sith Psychiatrist

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    Remember that the basis of Star Wars is Good VS Evil... playing in the grey area (even if it is cool and fun.... and highly creative) doesn't reach broad audience.
    Strangely, that's what I liked the most about the prequels.... But it was confusing for the general audience.....

    I think..... and I started a thread about it not long ago about WHEN the villain will be presented to the audience.... this time, they will go A NEW HOPE all over us. Clearly establishing who are (is) the villain(s).... who are the hero(es)(ine)... and let's get down and boogie!

    The grey zone will (might) come in the next episodes. It's 1977 again!



    And let's be frank.... I think, in these troubled times, that's exactly what the general audience need... like it was back then, after the Vietnam War...
     
    #8 MarsPhoenix, Feb 25, 2015
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  9. Bluestreaking

    Bluestreaking Imperial Grand Admiral with Bluish skin

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    Let's be Frank?

    image.jpg

    But anyway you make a valid point but there have been rumors and interviews suggesting they are bold enough to be going grey.

    And allow me to clarify, Kylo is 100% evil in this theory he may be 3rd Order (we need to give these guys a name) but he is in it because it is the closest he can get to being Sith. There is no grayness once Uber gets his hands on him.

    The order may have been grayish at one point but the film has them going evil as they try resurrect the Sith
     
    #9 Bluestreaking, Feb 25, 2015
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  10. MarsPhoenix

    MarsPhoenix Sith Psychiatrist

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    Ok :) I follow you. They are tempting the devil. Like Prometheus.
     
    #10 MarsPhoenix, Feb 25, 2015
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  11. sbs87

    sbs87 Lord of The Dark Arts

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    If the flashback thing happens and Kylo destroys the Jedi academy because of his decision to go to the dark side I don't think we hear any mention of what he is in terms of an order. If Luke isn't around to inform people on things I don't really think we hear Kylo mentioned as anything but "the evil Kylo Ren" or something. If the Academy was started a few years after ROTJ and there were no other force users in the galaxy left other than Luke, I'd say Kylo was a student who went bonkers and doesn't Identify himself as anything as he has nothing else to go on except maybe old Sith principles at that point.

    If the force is awakening I'm going to assume that since a few years after ROTJ when Luke started the academy and it was then destroyed there hasn't been an order or organized force activity of any kind. There is just Kylo and his brigade of stormtroopers terrorizing people in search of whatever he is after.
    I think having a third order only to have it not matter by the end of TFA because a Sith lord is released somehow would make the third order a waste of time.
    If Kylo is referred to as anything I think it will be something like "Dark Jedi" or "the Jedi that destroyed the hopes of a new Jedi order". It will be in context rather than a specific Order like Jedi or Sith.
     
    #11 sbs87, Feb 25, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2015
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  12. Grand Master Galen Marek

    Grand Master Galen Marek Jedi General

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    I third order really? I wonder what it would be made up off besides exiled jedi,sith etc.
     
    #12 Grand Master Galen Marek, Feb 25, 2015
  13. Bluestreaking

    Bluestreaking Imperial Grand Admiral with Bluish skin

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    When I was first told this they said the flashback was going to explain what exactly this third order is, which I suppose is still possible based off of what we know at the moment. Potentially "The Seven" is this Third Order but I still think they're just pirates. I think this was my own speculation but I can't remember now- Luke also could explain what they are since I still think he has more then that just one scene at the end. In the end what will matter is the reemergence of the Sith but until that point Kylo Ren and his order are the main villains

    Force Sensitives who collect relics, not all force users have to be Jedi or Sith. These guys are independent of both groups.
     
    #13 Bluestreaking, Feb 25, 2015
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  14. Grand Master Galen Marek

    Grand Master Galen Marek Jedi General

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    I think if they don't have the force what else makes them different.
     
    #14 Grand Master Galen Marek, Feb 25, 2015
  15. sbs87

    sbs87 Lord of The Dark Arts

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    do you believe they would be in league with the Empire? They would have to be right?
     
    #15 sbs87, Feb 25, 2015
  16. Bluestreaking

    Bluestreaking Imperial Grand Admiral with Bluish skin

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    They have an entirely different concept of what it means to have "Balance in the Force" they operate under the belief that when the Jedi and Sith are equal in power then that creates balance. They have subtly supported one side or the other and that was their main purpose/mission alongside the relic collecting. When Luke wiped out the Sith the order (that DarthDwight suggests I name "The Seven" as in seven ronin) had a crisis of confidence since they had failed in their only goal. That's why they wiped out the Academy, to try and restore balance. The current iteration of Kylo Ren is going to be responsible for the return of the Sith.

    Adam Driver is, the order itself doesn't have to be but because of who Driver is in his non-Kylo Ren life they have that connection
     
    #16 Bluestreaking, Feb 25, 2015
  17. sbs87

    sbs87 Lord of The Dark Arts

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    Your idea is interesting. I think the mention of the seven looting making them pirates was misinterpreted by MSW. Just because they are looting doesn't make them pirates. If they came there for "the sword" or other artifacts then of course they are going through everything trying to find it but Rose is escaping with it.

    If they are pirates they might just be artifact bounty hunters hired by the someone to collect artifacts. IF that was true I don't think we will see a third order.
     
    #17 sbs87, Feb 25, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2015
  18. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Rebel Commander

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    My immediate reaction is that if there is a Third Order, and your theory is correct, then it should make an appearance in the Rebels series since the Jedi are all but extinct. It should have also played a role in Palpatine's rise to power.

    However it could have been formed after the events of ROTJ or around the OT time frame. If there is a Third Order, you might want to reconsider what their true motivations are and the time frame.
     
    #18 Duck Duck Goose, Feb 25, 2015
  19. Bluestreaking

    Bluestreaking Imperial Grand Admiral with Bluish skin

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    I would be very happy if Rebels shows them but the whole point of this order is to serve as the man behind the man behind the man. They are so deep in the shadows I like to wonder whether or not Palpatine even knew of their existence. The reason they have to exist by at least the OT time frame is they explain the plot hole of how did Luke's Lightsaber leave cloud city, one of the order was there observing the battle between one of the last Jedi and a Sith lord and he retrieved the sword.
     
    #19 Bluestreaking, Feb 25, 2015
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  20. Duck Duck Goose

    Duck Duck Goose Rebel Commander

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    It would certainly be interesting to think that there is a Wizard of Oz playing a role in all of the movies somehow. However, it would be difficult to pinpoint where, when, and why the Order behaved the way they did.

    My theory about Driver is much simpler. He starts the movie as a Jedi and turns dark near the end.
     
    #20 Duck Duck Goose, Feb 25, 2015
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