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SPOILER "Aftermath: Empire's End" By Chuck Wendig (Discussion)

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Books & Comics + Legends' started by PrincessLeiaCB3, Feb 23, 2017.

  1. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    eh, grey=neutral, same diff in the metaphoric.

    i would argue though that a lot about the ST and the new canon seems to indicate that the individual in this world does matter--that sentient life is critical. maybe not to the "Force" itself, but certainly in relation to the individual's relationship with the Force. in other words, the significance of the water is that it does not flow just one way.

    i am probably not articulating that well. i'm too tired and it's Friday and i need some rum ~ hahahahaha
     
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  2. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    I was talking about the relationship of the Force towards individual. I think it reacts to humanity (for the lack of better word) more because the imbalance within individual won't affect it, but many within individuals (for example, Republic turning into Empire) will.

    Grey, imo, is a little bit of this (light) and a little bit of that ( dark). That is what I see when fans talk about grey Jedi, someone who uses both aspects of the Force. But, there is no grey side of the Force, there is only the Force and, so far, except Bendu we haven't met anyone who can use it in its entirety (something Guardians of the Whills hope humans could eventually do). So, I see a difference between grey and neutral. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
     
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    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    Hmm. With the new kinds of Force users we've seen lately in the new canon, I've been looking at the Force as more of a spectrum than a binary. I haven't figured out how this is supposed to work in terms of the users though. :rolleyes::p
     
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  4. PrincessLeiaCB3

    PrincessLeiaCB3 The Princess that was Promised
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    Just finished the book. Loved it. And somehow, I feel sorry.

    Sorry for all those who only know the greatness of Star Wars just because of the movies. And that we will probably not see this on a movie. Sorry for those who see Return of the Jedi and thought that the Empire was gone for good and that the Victory Celebration probably meant: "and they lived happily ever after". They are missing so much. And maybe it is for the best. They will not shed a tear when that faithful battle droid was blown to bits just after saving his master Temmin. They will not know about Mr. Bones. (In this part, Mr. Wendig, you were any given George R. R. Martin with that death.). They won't feel conflicted by the character of this anti-heroine called Rae Sloane, the one who we are supposed to loathe due to her devotion to a falling Empire but that at times, we root for her to achieve her goals, even though we are aware how ruthless she's been, how she has endangered the life of the members of this rag-tag team.

    And yet, Chuck Wendig gives us several great lessons. How war is not fair. How good or evil can be such a dangerous label, and in times of need, sometimes we need to create the most unthinkable alliances.

    At one point I was almost cheering for Sloane to kill Rax. Like asking for a smaller evil to defeat the greater one. But I knew she was no good. And her obsession with "her Empire" might be understandable if we realized that, as she told Norra, she had nothing, so she held dear of that insane obsession towards the idea of an Empire.

    What I got is that Leia did not know Snoke at all, as many thought. That is why I recall people taking tweets, interviews too much into account might want to wait to get the official version out of the canon material. She might have realized later that Snoke was that Dark presence she felt surrounding her unborn son.

    Of course I had tears with that episode with Han and Ben. I could see that Han's thoughts about how he would not be able to communicate with his son same as Leia could due to her Force-sensitiveness was a mirror of what Timothy Zahn mentioned in "The Last Command" where Leia is giving birth and she thinks of how Han would not be able to communicate with her twins like she could.

    I could see Brentin's fate coming. I feel bad because I wanted Norra to end up with Wedge but in some way that was coming for him: to sacrifice himself for his wife.

    And yeah, maybe the loss I cared more about was Mr. Bones. If there is an afterlife for droids, I want to believe that he and Kay-too are hanging out and having fun. Both losses were heartbreaking even when Kay-too actually chose to be killed so Cassian and Jyn could get the plans, whereas Mr. Bones was just protecting his master and was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    At some point, I thought most of the members of Norra Wexley's crew would be gone - including her. Of course we know her son survives until TFA, but I was not so sure about the rest of the team. I'm glad most of them make it through, though it is bitter sweet when I think of some other rag-tag team we met not so long ago and didn't make it. (Yes, I'm not over Rogue One, lol.)

    P.S. Such an irony that while I'm posting this, my shuffle decided to play "Jyn Erso & Hope Suite" from the Rogue One Soundtrack.

    Glad someone dear to us mentioned Rey was "very forgiving". (High hopes for the ST, people!)

    5. May the Force be with Commander Agate. Her genius tactic took down the Ravager and I wish I could have seen that onscreen. Like that Corvette took on the Star Destroyer over Scarif.

    As Supreme Leader Snoke said: "We shall see."

    In some way it made me think of a poem called "Life is a dream" from Calderon de la Barca:

    Where life and dreams are as one;
    And living has taught me this,
    Man dreams the life that is his,
    Until his living is done.
    The king dreams he is king, and he lives
    In the deceit of a king,
    Commanding and governing;
    And all the praise he receives
    Is written in wind, and leaves
    A little dust on the way
    When death ends all with a breath.
    Where then is the gain of a throne,
    That shall perish and not be known
    In the other dream that is death?
    Dreams the rich man of riches and fears,
    The fears that his riches breed;
    The poor man dreams of his need,
    And all his sorrows and tears;
    Dreams he that prospers with years,
    Dreams he that feigns and foregoes,
    Dreams he that rails on his foes;
    And in all the world, I see,
    Man dreams whatever he be,
    And his own dream no man knows.
    And I too dream and behold,
    I dream I am bound with chains,
    And I dreamed that these present pains
    Were fortunate ways of old.
    What is life? a tale that is told;
    What is life? a frenzy extreme,
    A shadow of things that seem;
    And the greatest good is but small,
    That all life is a dream to all,
    And that dreams themselves are a dream.


    It also made me think of one text included on the "Rogue One" novelisation by Alexander Freed about the perceptions of the Force and Jedha:

    SUPPLEMENTAL DATA: PILGRIMS OF JEDHA
    [Document #DN4624 (“Faith and the Force of Others”), fragment excerpted
    from the archives of the Order of the Esoteric Pulsar; author unknown.]
    What is the Force of Others? To ask this, you must ask one question and a
    thousand.
    To a cultist of the Huiyui-Tni, you must ask, “What is the exhalation of the true,
    amphibious god?” To a Jedi, you must ask, “What is it that binds and defines all life?”
    To a child of the Esoteric Pulsar, you must ask, “Show me the secret pages of the
    Book of Stars.” To a faithless man, you must ask, “What power enables prophecy
    and sorcery in a world controlled by logic and law?”
    These thousand questions will garner a thousand answers, all pointing toward the
    same truth.
    Now ask, “Where is the Force of Others?” and one answer becomes inevitable:
    the kind and cold moon of Jedha. For a thousand faiths see truth in Jedha’s
    mysteries, no matter that their stories differ; no matter that not one history of the
    Temple of the Kyber can explain each brick in its foundation, or that our legends
    entwine and part in paradox.
    I ask you to believe that Jedha is a nexus for faith, life, and the Force of Others in
    all their forms. If the Force can be embodied in a vision or a living creature, why not
    a place? Or why not an idea? Why can pilgrimage not be Jedha, and Jedha not be
    the Force?
    I ask you to believe this not because it is true, but because it is a beginning.
    Imagine these things and you must conclude that every visit to Jedha is a
    pilgrimage—that every visit to Jedha is an expression of faith and a search for truth,
    intended or not. When a thief comes to Jedha to prey upon the vendors in the
    markets, she does so in accordance with her nature; she will trick and lie and steal,
    and if she does not trick or lie or steal then her faith and nature are altogether
    different.
    You say, “Why a thief? Why such a cynical conjecture?” To which I say, “Do you
    not wonder why the Guardians of the Whills protect their temple so? Why the Jedi
    carry their cruel swords of light, even here?” It is because our pilgrimages are in
    accordance with our faiths, and faith can bring terrible conflict. A thief is but the
    kindest example I can offer.
    Jedha does not give answers to those who do not know what answers they seek.
    Jedha does not bring into harmony those things that cannot harmonize. Jedha does
    not express faith and the Force through its pilgrims; pilgrims express faith and the
    Force through Jedha.
    Pilgrims express faith and the Force through life.
    For what is life but pilgrimage? And what is life but conflict?
    There have been worlds and tyrants who have tried to prevent their people from
    journeying to Jedha. But such a thing cannot be stopped. Living beings will always
    find their way to the kind and cold moon, as they always have. Through the Force
    and Jedha, they will act as they must, for good and ill.
    And we will know them by their actions there.

    What would the Bendu say?

    Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
     
    #64 PrincessLeiaCB3, Feb 25, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
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  5. DarthLuketheWise

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    Anyone else remember a key desert planet that apparently at one time had also been lush and green? Or at least Tattooine was, according to the Sand People if you took the time to talk to the historian while playing KOTOR.
     
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  6. panki

    panki Rebel Commander

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    I also find it interesting that Jakku had an ancient observatory on it, and the Teedos knew the history of Jakku and cared for characters like the Sitter....similarly, Tatooine had Mushroom Mesa (part of the Mos Espa Circuit for the pod races) which had humanoid looking stone heads and the sand people guarded its secrets......its almost as if these were all locations affected by the same ancient battle/super weapon.
     
    #66 panki, Feb 25, 2017
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  7. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    Several times during the book, I could hear Harrison's voice or see his gestures during the scene because of how Wendig wrote him. The part of this scene when he asks Leia to do 'her thing' was one. I could just see his gesture, it made me laugh. And it's a beautiful scene and, of course, tragic in retrospect.

    When Temmin puts his hand on Brentin's body - all the feels. I definitely cared more bout Bones, which is a pity, because we got to see the glimpses of Brentin's real personality in this book. But, too late.
     
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  8. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    A couple more randomish thoughts:
    • the map from TFA
    • why Luke has been wandering around the GFFA looking for Jedi lore/artifacts/temples

    C-3P0 says of the map that BB8 has: "General, I regret to inform you, but this map recovered from BB-8 is only partially complete. And even worse, it matches no charted system on record. We simply do not have enough information to locate Master Luke." This map comes from Lor San Tekka, who lived on Jakku. Did he happen to somehow get access to those ancient navigational computers in the observatory (assuming they survived and the creepy sleeping sentinal droids haven't woken and killed anyone who entered) to get this map? Or is it just a piece of information filtered down through the years from someone else (a scavenger) who found it? (This assumes that Ach-to is somewhere in the unknown regions, and I could be wrong about this.)


    So we know Palpatine has been hearing this dark side thing/person calling him. (Strangely, Vader, according to Rax, did not.) Yet it seems that Ben has, and perhaps those in A:EE who had weird dreams did too, including the Acolytes of the Beyond. Is it possible Luke was hearing/feeling it too? Is that why he took off on his own so quickly after Endor--he's been traveling the galaxy looking for Force information (which would include Jedi information) that could help to combat this evil power?
     
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  9. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    According to Empire's End, even with the map, Rae Sloane had a hard trip to the Unknown Regions (I believe storms, gravitational wells, etc. were part of it).

    Once they had the map, Rey and Chewie simply jumped to hyperspace and were there. So, I think Ahch-To (where Luke is) is on this side of galaxy, the system is simply uncharted, but the galaxy is big so no surprise there. I don't think Luke's location has anything to do with Unknown Regions, especially since it supposedly houses the first Jedi temple. It's hard to imagine that those ancient Jedi had the technology to do what took years to Palpatine.

    This is highly possible, but I don't think it happened right after Endor. His travels were for his education and the future of Jedi- to pass on what he learned. Once he honed his skills and, probably, once Ben turned and he actually tried to hear/feel it, he might have understood that something is out there and went searching for deeper answers. But, who knows? We are missing 30 years here. I hope they give us more in TLJ and in books after.
     
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    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    Yes, true--but movie hyperspace travel is notoriously oversimplified. ;) Could the ancient Jedi have come from unknown regions to begin with? Could those ancients have had technology that was lost, say, under a Sith Empire? (Just playing devil's advocate--I have no idea.)



    (More devil's advocacy ;)) If the Jedi are needed to bring balance to the Force, part of their purpose is to combat the Dark Side, right? So he'd need to gather all the Force knowledge he could for his new generation of Jedi, to teach them...

    I'm sure we'll get at least something of what Luke has been doing in TLJ--at least some explanation for his absence in TFA. (pls pls pls :p)
     
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  11. PrincessLeiaCB3

    PrincessLeiaCB3 The Princess that was Promised
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    From this book, I think somehow Mon Mothma was vindicated in my eyes.

    She was a politician, and of course she wanted quick changes but the issue here was that using an absolute authority would take her closer to what Palpatine did with the Empire. And even so, she would rely on some quite unorthodox methods to achieve her goals.

    I enjoyed terribly how she interacted with Sinjir. Sinjir is pure gold people. I was cracking with his remards along the book.

    For some all that baby gift talking might sound silly but... Did Lando actually go ahead with that vintage pistol gift? And in some way, we can tell Ben Solo indirectly saved the Chancellor's life.

    And regarding all the blackmailing and such we can see how a lot of the vices from the Old Republic and the Empire were hard to erradicate. That is why Victory Celebration is cool because they had won the day but they had to keep fighting.

    Regarding Luke, I think this article makes a lot of sense:

    http://eleven-thirtyeight.com/2016/10/luke-skywalker-hero-who-ran-away/

    When I was reading about the Battle of Jakku, at one point I realised most of our main heroes were missing - Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, Artoo, Threepio, Lando - but one part of the book includes a great description on how the Empire found its end. Maybe Jakku was the last blow, but it started dying since the day Order 66 was executed. It kept losing blood with all the tiny steps the Rebels were taking along all those years. And when all the X-wings were attacking over Jakku, I was thinking that Red Five and R2-D2 should be there at the thick of the action.

    But I could understand the enormous weight on Luke's shoulders. Of course he had to go around the galaxy looking for more Jedi knowledge. Or maybe some surviving FS still around - Bendu? Maybe some dear characters we know? We shall see.
     
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    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    Yes, I believe it was Chekhov's gun...:rolleyes::p

    Lando sounded as though he meant to stash it somewhere for Han/Ben to find later, right? Anyway, we do know he sent Ben the tooka doll that Han tried (and failed) to amuse him with.


    Thank you, that was a thoughtful article. :) TBH, I kind of prefer Mystical Luke, as long as he has a good reason to be out of the action.
     
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  13. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    Sinjir is the best. That training flashback explains so much about him. And I loved his interaction with Mon - someone managed to shut him up.:D

    Plus, his friendship with Jas is so precious.
     
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    i hope we get to see him "live" or in a cartoon series one day. he totally made the first book for me. was kinda not used to the best advantage in the second book, but came back with a vengeance here! i love him!

    i thought it was interesting too how all the OT people were out of this last battle, but i kinda felt like they had done their part, and it was nice (and auspicious) that Ben was born during the final Liberation celebration--and i was glad we didn't have any silly separation drama with her and Han. i swore if that kid got squeezed out on the Falcon i was going to write Wendig a stern letter of annoyance. let the woman at least birth this kid in peace! hahahaha

    as for Luke, i feel like yes, he had other priorities and he had earned this time to grieve and center himself.
     
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  15. Boushhdisguise

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    Bend
    Bendu exactly.
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 25, 2017, Original Post Date: Feb 25, 2017 ---
    I loved Sinj
    I loved Sinjir's fate, and never expected that
     
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    Kennytime Rebelscum

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    I finished the book. Absolutely loved the Epilogue. My random thoughts...

    Anybody else think it's possible that Thrawn is on the Eclipse? That line just wouldn't be in there for nothing, right? About him having knowledge of the Unknown Regions?

    Sinjir is a great character. I read him as Peter Serafinowicz.

    I mainly read this for the backstory but I liked the trilogy overall, especially the last 1.5 books. I'm really intrigued how all of this connects with Snoke.
     
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    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    Yes, my guess is that it's Thrawn is who's waiting because of his knowledge of the unknown regions. Anyone want to place bets on a Thrawn/Sloane throwdown? :D
     
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    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    against my better judgment i did a search for Sloane / Thrawn:

    Screen Shot 2017-02-25 at 7.23.22 PM.png
     
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    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    I'm not even going to ask... :p
     
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  20. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    All right, we are taking internet from you. :D
     
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