How do we know Palpatine is really dead?

It didn't seem to feel bad when the trailer definitively spoiled it before the movie was released. The ponies that some had placed bets on, Kylo ruling the galaxy until Rey doles out righteous justice, destroying him and retaining balance like the Jedi before her failed to do, ir Rey going full darkside to the point that Kylo is forced to turn back in order to save her.... all the pet "opportunities" that fans had tried to stay ahead of the curve on, would be labelled "missed" by those who expected TROS to devote a big chunk of its story justifying the choice of Palpatine's involvement. Not in any resonant, thematic terms. In actual logistical terms with unambiguous lore enhancements and corroboration. Naturally the movie didn't waste its time placating people who invested all their fan credentials and esteem into mentally kick-starting certain plotlines that never got made.

As far as the films themselves are concerned, it is "revealed" in the opening crawl. I can certainly sympathise with people who felt that part of it was a little cheap. But it's cheap in a consistent way:

"The galaxy is engulfed in turmoil...." It is? Do tell. ".....trade disputes."- Oh.... doesn't seem engulfed either, seems like one planet that nobody is even keen to believe is under attack).

"...has made it difficult for the limited number of Jedi to maintain peace and order.." It has? There are? Lets see? No? Ok.

"There are heroes on both sides..." If you say so...

"It is a dark time for the rebellion...".... Of course that's precisely what was predicted would happen if the Death Star was destroyed in A New Hope..... not.

"...Little does Luke know..." ~Yeah him and us both..

But the Palpatine content in TROS is also totally consistent with how he was treated in the OT, which this trilogy directly follows. Palpatine kind of functions as both a second death star ("This again?!") and, with the way that Kylo descends into a lair/dungeon like R2 & 3PO and later Luke would when meeting him, Jabba also. I think that's pretty cool. The PT is filled with lengthy dialogue scenes involving Palpatine playing the role of Chancellor but having to telegraph his duplicity to the audience. George seemingly enjoyed this or at least became reliant on enhancing the status of the political subtext "What it's really all about". This is a role that Palpatine just did not play in the OT. Because there was no need for it. This lopsided nature of Palpatine's involvement in the first two trilogies, and the nature of their creation and release, is probably responsible for some fans being unprepared for the seeming regression of Palpatine to an absolute minimum of screen time and explication. When in fact his function and role experiences a much more linear progression from I-IX, but still somewhat overloaded in the prequels that perhaps enhanced those films but skewed the saga in a way that the addition of the ST perhaps exposes to an extent that the 6 episode saga didn't. It's not the only element of the PT that does this. But it's the one which ultimately becomes a more perceptible issue when TROS brings Palp out of retirement.

 

You know, for all the issues I have with TROS... I don't really mind too much how Palpatine was handled.

The "Somehow Palpatine has returned" line gets a lot of flack, but I think it makes sense. From an in universe perspective, it's totally reasonable that Poe wouldn't know how this was happening. From a meta perspective... yes, it is a bit ironic given how the movie doesn't bend over backward to explain what happened to those in the audience who can't draw conclusions from context, but I'm not sure the how is all that necessary anyway.

The point of Palpatine is that he's a phantom. He's a menace. He might always keep coming back. And honestly... I don't think I'd mind that too much. Star Wars is comic bookey fun, it's totally reasonable to have a recurring villain through the decades.

And as far as the "prophecy" goes... I've always kinda seen that as a sign of Jedi hubris anyway. The idea that a place as big as the GFFA (3.2 billion habitable planets, apparently) could see a lasting peace is beyond naive.

To quote my new obsession lately... war never changes.

 

Three fourths of audiences were confused by Mission Impossible 1 when it first came out.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

I don't really object to Palps returning, but it's something that should have been established earlier because Kylo earns the right to be the villain after The Last Jedi. Maybe there's a version of the story where Kylo inadvertently finds out he's been working to bring back Palps. I don't think the Rey back story is necessary. The story needed more baking.

It's hilarious the stuff people pass on as fact.

 

Armchair quarterback time...

See, if someone brought me TLJ at my job, I'd say, "Hang on. You should think twice about killing Snoke here. I know it's juicy, but think about what comes next. If you take him out now, then the mirror Vader redemption arc of Kylo gets a bit thin. We have to create some other baddy or force of some kind to push him up against, or if we don't then it becomes a parallel tangent - his redemption arc, and loses some oomph because if he's on his own... well... he can stop anytime he wants with no pressure (unless we really take too much time setting up his internal pressures... but that's tedious). So, find a different way to do this than killing Snoke and move that to the end of the next one. Then you've got a nice ROTJ style setup and we can play with how it happens differently this time around."

Because, to me, from a work view, the audience fuel of this tangent is the tension of Kylo tugging back and forth against two voices - Rey and Snoke (Luke, Palps) who each represent an angel and a demon on his shoulders. So, blowing the lid on wiping out the icon of his demon releases the tension to a point that you have to rebuild it all up again, but that's always going to be clumsy to pull in the third act. Better to keep it simple. You can always still pull ol Palps in spiritually in a number of ways... hell... having Snoke and Kylo's ultimate plan to be to pull Palps back from the afterlife and right during the final ritual when Palps starts to materialize, Kylo can pull a Vader and flip sending Palps back to hell and then Rey and Kylo face off against Snoke then, yadayada.

But again... that's all armchair talk with hindsight benefit. It's always harder to see the forest for the trees in the foxhole.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

For me the ultimate arc is a confrontation between Kylo Ren and his mother. It's kind of an inverse with Vader/Luke. I could see a scenario where Ben is turned at the end, and with Rey's help to defeat the Knights of Ren who have wrestled control of the First Order. Or Rey and Leia defeate Kylo in the end and he asks for forgiveness before dying and the First Order is defeated. Either option is significantly hurt by the untimely passing of Fisher.

 

That is. I don't see Kylo's shoulder devil Snoke as the main. It's the left shoulder. The right shoulder is his mom and the icon of purpose (the why) is Rey.

But it's threads in threads in this beast.

And I do agree the whole Ren thing should have played a bigger role in the final throw rather than just being 1980s door security the hero takes out in a jiff on their way to the bad guy.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

Bringing back Palpatine wouldn't really make sense in the context of Kylo and Snoke's efforts to wipe away the past.

In TROS Kylo is blind sided by it and the irony became that he ultimately has no control over the past he wants to kill. The irony of reviving Palpatine despite it being the past, is more problematic.

 

That's all timey wimey shlock. If you want to bring palps in, and not get rid of Snoke until round 3, while retaining kill the past, then bringing Palps back is so Snoke can consume his Force presence and yadayada.

It's fantasy. You can do anything you want. The first power of movies is audience emotion, above all else.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

As we've discussed, some fans' "emotions" are driven by clarity of purpose and motivation and not feeling dispossessed of the knowledge of what people will and should do next.

 

What I meant was you can deliver both. It's not an either/or.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

I think it IS important to have clarity of purpose and motivation in the characters. Or to at least have some authentic ambiguity in them.

 

Yes, just as it's hilarious that grown adults send death threats to a director because they say he 'disrespected' a character that doesn't exist - not.

 

Obviously. My go to analogy at the office on the matter is to tell people to make it like stained glass windows in churches.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

I feel that Kylo's ultimate struggle has little to nothing to do with Snoke. Kylo clearly didn't care much for him, and seemed to only really follow him out of convenience. And I know that they do the whole "force dyad" thing, but he doesn't really have much of a personal connection to him either.

His real struggle seemed initially to be (and should've been followed up on more closely) with his misconceptions of Vader's legacy. There's a certain tragedy in Anakin's story in the context of the sequels. After having been Darth Vader for decades, only to revoke his Emperor and save his son in the end as Anakin, Vader is redeemed. But now, his grandson has allied himself with a new Empire, a new Emperor, and views Vader's legacy through a lens that neglects whatever redemption there was. Even in killing this new "Emperor" of Snoke, Kylo only does it for selfish reasons, and takes the First Order for himself.

I wish that was followed up on more. I wish his struggles of living in Vader's shadow, despite doing something that Anakin would've been deeply saddened by, were explored more deeply.

 

Snoke is a good vessel for Kylo's struggles. Removing him meant you had to replace him otherwise you just have Kylo able to flip anytime and movie's over. That's the only reason Palps is in the movie. Snoke's dead, still need dramatic preasure.

Cheers,
Jayson

 

I don't think that's written in stone at all.

Were Episode IX to feature a Superme Leader Kylo Ren struggling with his space in Vader's legacy, he could eventually flip- then any manner of villains we already know (Hux, Phasma, etc) could take over control of the First Order and we still have a conflict.

 

The problem with Kylo Ren is most of his character's development and back story was covered in supplementary material. The tie in TLJ novel did some good descriptions of the problems he and his parents went through raising a FS child. The Rise of Kylo Ren comic was outstanding. But, of course, only fans of the character would buy that. To me, Disney's worst mistakes with the ST were leaving so much to supplementary material. For example, one of Rey's many critics argued that how on earth could she pilot a ship?
This was actually covered in tie in stuff where it was revealed she had built a flight simulator over the years and practised flying regularly in it.

Regarding Anakin....oh, how I wish Kylo had had some scenes with his grandfather's Force ghost.

 

This is something that has stuck out to me from the start. Kylo invoking Vader as his grandfather and stating he would "complete what you started..." That shows that firstly, he knew his lineage, but he was seemingly never told the truth. To put it in the simplest "Certain Point of View"- Vader was not his grandfather, Anakin Skywalker was. Vader and his agenda were destroyed by Luke, and in a way, Anakin. How is it that Leia and Luke allowed Ben to know the truth without telling him the most important piece? Ok, so easy explanation is that Snoke poisoned his mind and misled him. So what would cause Ben to believe Snoke over his parents and Uncle who was actually a participant in the end of Vader? If the rift between Ben Solo and his family had been more clearly exposed, then Kylo Ren would have been a more effective Villain than I found him to be. This also speaks more to the thought that Snoke was a wasted character. Just a little more time with Kylo and Snoke could have gone a long way to establish them as solid protagonists instead of a petulant, angry brat and his creepy mentor.

 

Emblematic symbolism. If you take out the Klingons, then you need another equal caliber weight.

You can make any henchman take over Dr. No, but it takes more screentime (to ramp them up to equal weight) than just leaving Dr. No in place.

Cheers,
Jayson