An analysis of the Knights of Ren, the Church of the Force, and what they represent.

Yeah even Yoda got hit with it in ROTS and he started he smoke .

 

he might have taken the Kylo name before leaving Luke or upon leaving Luke.

but you're right about Snoke being too "old" to be Luke's apprentice ~ a collaborator would make much more sense! maybe Luke was deliberately experimenting with trying to balance Dark Side sensibilities and Snoke seduced his pupils, possibly luring them through this Ren organization. putting Ben as the Master would have been an easy way to fluff Ben for the betrayal.

 

I always hated the notion that getting hit with Force Lightning is what disfigured Sheev:

-Those are REALLY symmetrical scars for that to have been the cause.
-Really, FL made him look like a constipated goblin?
-The make-up job wasn't nearly as good as it was in ROTJ.
-The idea tat tapping into the DS so much for so long gives you great power, but also essentially rots you physically, sounds so much more interesting to me.

I'm more open to the fan-theory that he already looked like that. That he had been hiding his true form all that time, and getting his own FL redirected back at him just revealed his true hideousness.

 

Absolutely. The lightning definitely deformed his face. Whether he was actually weakened though and needed saving is up for debate. That scene was all about getting Anakin to make the final turn. Do something he couldn't come back from. My guess is Sidious could've fought back and defeated Mace but chose to play the weak old man to make sure Anakin acted.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 18, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 18, 2016 ---

"Balance Dark Side sensibilities"... why do you think Luke would consider doing this?
There seems to be a lot of folks that are of the mindset that Dark Side isn't the route to evil anymore...

 

The Knights of Ren remind me of rōnin on a stylistic level. It remains to be seen if this is simply visual stylism. This is rarely the case in the Star Wars universe, most things in the GFFA are designed with purpose and intent. This leads me to believe the KOR will be revealed as a group of warriors from different backgrounds united in serving the Dark Side. A couple of them even look like they are wearing Mandalorian armor. I don't know that their number, 7, has a concrete meaning. Personally I think it's a nice tribute to Seven Samurai. We all know how much Lucas loves jidaigeki films, and we all know how much JJ wanted to go back to Star Wars' origins. I think it might even be safe to assume some of them may be Force-sensitive. That said, I don't think we'll see them running around with lightsabers any time soon. Remember, lightsabers are the weapons of Jedi and Dark Jedi/Sith.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 18, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 18, 2016 ---

I think Luke may have explored the Dark Side in order to understand the nature of the Force, but more importantly to understand how to not fall to the Dark Side. I believe Luke has become so powerful in the Force that he can study the Dark Side without falling to it.

 

i guess i've always considered the Force itself to be neutral: Light and Dark have to coexist. you can't have light without shadow, you can't have shadow without light.

my theory is that Luke recognizes that balance does not mean quashing the Dark, but acknowledging it mindfully.

i wrote this post a while back, so i don't know that i still feel like he was deliberately courting Dark side techniques, but i do think he might have been trying to understand how to achieve actual balance. perhaps even particularly for someone like Ben, in whom Snoke recognizes this very striking dichotomy.

i'm guessing Luke would have seen that too. i'm guessing that Luke might have felt that killing the Dark in Ben is no more the answer than Kylo Ren attempting to kill the Light.

but to your question: while i've always understood that the Dark is a path to evil, it's still a path, not a foregone conclusive one-way slide. and all paths lead back as much as they lead forward.

 

I think Luke certainly learned that his Jedi mentors were wrong about the Dark Side being a dead end but I don't think that means he will suggest it's a good idea to use it.

The dark side is greed. Selfishness. Anger. Hatred.

Even though you can return from it it still means you'll commit evil if you embrace it in any way. And Abakin might have come back but look at what he did along the way!

Luke was successful because he utterly rejected the Dark Side. I just don't buy this idea that he will suggest using it at all.

 

nep. not my philosophy of how this works. evil isn't a thing to be "had" or "acquired". it's just the absence of good. Dark power is passion and anger and fear. we need passion to motivate action. we need righteous anger to correct injustice. we need fear to not jump off precipices.

none of those things are evil in and of themselves. only the absence of good is evil. so when you use anger or passion or fear without goodness, that's what results in evil.

 

Just to clarify, I am not suggesting that Luke would use the Dark Side in the way you are talking about, although we do see him use Dark Side powers at Jabba's palace in ROTJ. This proves that he did not utterly reject the Dark Side. We see this again when he attempts to strike down Palpatine on the Death Star II. No, I believe that Luke studied about all aspects of the Force. That said, I also believe the fight with Vader and Palpatine was the turning point where he embraced the Light. I also believe in his studies that he would have discovered that the early Jedi sought balance in the Force as well. Balance means being aware of the Dark Side and avoiding the temptation to use it to gain power. The only way he could be aware of the Dark Side is to have some sort of experience with it, and that's what we saw in ROTJ.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 18, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 18, 2016 ---

I don't completely agree with this, but I do see where you are coming from. I really like what you said about evil not being a thing to be had or acquired. To me, the danger of the Dark Side is using anger and fear to gain power over the Force and other living things. Evil is an action, not a thing, but power is a thing and abusing power is evil.

 

yes, that's exactly it. action is a thing. action can result in evil (the absence of good).

it's how you use anything that determines its moral value.

a gun in and of itself isn't evil. it can be used for good.

 

As much as I see where you guys are coming from I have to respectfully disagree. The dark side is a greedy, selfish way of thinking. That's something any Jedi has to avoid.

We could go deeper and say yeah we need to fear stuff so we don't go falling of a cliff. But I don't think that is the point being made in Star Wars. I think Lucas explains it best here:

 

That video explains the difference between the Light side and the Dark side perfectly.

As far as Luke studying the Dark side or not... I guess we'll find out in 22 months!

Back to the Knights of Ren, who thinks they could possibly be tied to Revan?

 

Also don't forget that the make up for him in ROTS was meant to show him as being disfigured as a much younger man .

 

The visual dictionary mentioned that the KoR as a whole work outside of "formal First Order hierarchy", meaning they can call upon First Order military assets as they wish (like sith in the empire(s), inquisitors and jedi generals in TCW). If the KoR were non-force users I don't think First Order command would have granted them such privileges.

I don't think Ben Solo was the only student who fell to the dark side. Strong bets that the KoR are former jedi students.

 

oh that guy. hahaha

i fully admit i conveniently ignore him when i disagree with him philosophically.
which is why i know i'd've ended up in the Sith pool if i had been born FS.

but more seriously, i still think what he says doesn't contradict the nature of good/evil as i understand and presented it.
i think where i diverge is in the presumption that the mere presence of the Dark Force is inherently evil? it's the use of it, not its existence which is evil?

i mean: i feel this has to be reconciled or else an FS person born with a predisposition to the Dark is basically damned ~ don't you think?

 

I don't know that

I don't think the Force works that way. I don't think there is a predisposition one way or another. I'm not aware of anything canon that states that, at least.

 

good point.

that might be me inferring from things like the PT where they're all freaked out about Anakin because he's "dangerous".
also, Snoke taking particular delight in Ben's equal capacity for Light/Dark (which seems to suggest one can have unequal capacities).

i still find it problematic. i'm okay with just processing it as i do ~ hahaha.

 

I feel the same way you do as far as use of the Dark Side being evil. I think a good illustration of this is the cave on Dagobah in ESB. The place itself was not intrinsically evil, rather it revealed evil because it was a source of Dark Side power.

 

yeah, that's another good example.

i mean, i hate to poo-poo the creator (i don't want to be one of those people), but i also feel like he put out a lot of disorganized thinking on the matter.
and then there's just the films at face-value, which becomes my go-to. and so much of that is just sorta up for interpretation.