Did something go wrong?

Many people who didn't like it told everybody else at the time that nobody liked it. (They were very keen on this. It got softened later to "this movie/trilogy split the fanbase" when it became clear that critical response and box office performance continued to be favourable.) Social media content that trashes stuff and promotes a consensus that things are terrible is just inherently more popular. Even with people who haven't seen what's being trashed.

So any retrospective of the trilogy is prone to do the lazy thing of looking at social media and concluding "Oh everybody hated the ST apparently. Let's start off on that basis." The positive critical response at the time simply has no currency now. But social media malcontent can be reheated and resold almost indefinitely. Indeed, for some people, fans included, the social media aspect has almost more value than the films now.

 

All right, I don't wanna go too into detail here, but look at the release dates of these films:

TFA- 2015 (Overwhelming hype and positivity)

TLJ- 2017 (Overwhelming negativity, lots of focus on "culture war" issues)

TROS- 2019 (continuation of 2017's trends, if not tempered a bit)


I mean, I get that TLJ had some things in it that not all of us liked... I certainly had some issues with the film. But definitely not "Binging Several 5 Hour Long YouTube Videos" type of problems. And I think we really cannot ignore the focus on a lot these supposed "culture war" issues people had. We can't deny a lot of the backlash was over really vapid complaints, like Rose's inclusion, Rey being a Jedi, and the complete illiteracy over not understanding the "Fight to save what we love" line.

With that in mind, we also cannot deny that 2016 was... well, to put in bluntly, it was a divisive year. And it's pretty much been like that since then.

So, I think we need to realize that these films aren't released into a vacuum. Yes, there are lvery egitimate criticisms of the films, and even better criticisms of the unethical nature of the Disney corporation.

But we need to be aware of, and condemn, the bad faith criticisms steeped in what I cannot call anything but "hatred".

For example, I've been a bit fascinated by a subreddit that Reddit keeps trying to push into my feed... we'll call it "r/ScrewMarvel", though that's not quite its name. What I find fascinating about it are the various groups that inhabit it, especially since these groups are starting to realize that they don't want to be associated under the same umbrella:

- there are those who simply dislike the corporate, manufactured nature of the films. Which, fair, though I don't think these franchises could exist any other way. Even if A24 got its hands on Marvel or Star Wars, it's not like they're also not a huge company at this point. At that point, you're just arguing over how big of billionaires are benefitting.

- then there are those that just stew in negativity and want anything Marvel to fail. They'll be complaining about films before the trailers even are released, and will misattribute anything the actors or directors say as some sort of attack against them. They just want the misery.

- then, especially now after rallying around that ironically pandering South Park episode, there are those that inhabit the sub simply because they want to "reclaim" the comic book stuff for... well, certainly for people who don't look like the cast of The Marvels, I'll tell ya that.


So, yeah, something changed. And I'm not saying that all the new Star Wars stuff has been amazing. It is, always has been, and always will be a mixed bag. But the biggest change, I think, is quite obviously and unfortunately, in our culture.

 

I love TFA and TLJ for me is a master piece. But TROS has some things that I dislike, its a great fun movie anyways . So the overall for the sequels is a 9/10.

 

Personally I think TFA is fine (the first act is amazing!), TLJ is hands-down a masterpiece, and TRoS is a bundle of fun and a love-letter to Carrie and C3PO (with a rather dumb and broken sith-dagger plot throw into the mix that I could've done without), and I love the ST mightilly. Great stuff and great Star Wars.

 

I am one of the people you are asking about. I LOVED TFA when it came out. But the more I thought about it the more I disliked it:

• Where did this First Order come from? The New Republic (which we never really see) just let this happen or somehow didn't know about it?
• OMG! Luke's original lightsaber! Can't wait to hear that story!
• Rey isn't even sure if Luke/Jedi are real, but can use the force pretty well just by discovering it on her own?
• JJ Abrams shortcut: People seem to like Rebellion vs. Empire, so I'll just hit the reset button and have a brand new (but nearly identical) Empire show up and destroy the New Republic instantly and put things back to Empire vs. Rebellion. If I can make James T. Kirk go from being an expelled student at Starfleet Academy to captain of the flagship Enterprise in a day or two, I can totally do this.
• Knights of Ren? Cool. Can't wait to see/learn more about that.
• Rey's family mystery sounds interesting, can't wait to learn more about that.
• Kylo to Darth Vader: Talk to me AGAIN about the dark side.

Then....

TLJ:

• Where are the Knights of Ren?
• Wait, who is Snoke?
• So, how did Maz get Luke's saber?
• Rey's family were nobodies. Ok, I'm ok with that. Seemed like some build up to something more interesting was going in in TFA, but this works.
• Rey: Luke, Leia sent me. She's desperate. The First Order is taking over the galaxy. Your nephew is helping them. We're losing. We're in dire need of help. Luke: No. WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Luke said "no"? Luke, who didn't give up on DARTH FREAKIN' VADER, gave up on his sister and nephew and the galaxy.
• Rey and Kylo, who have the force, have a really tough battle with Praetorian Guards, who don't have the force. Why?
• Blaster bolts arc in space...
• Rose Tico introduced as a major character, appears in most of the movie. Can't wait to see what she does in the next one.
• OMG, Luke's saber broken in two! What are they going to do with that?! Repair as double-bladed? Two new ones? No repair, Rey makes her own?
• Kylo killed Snoke! OMG! He's going to be the main villain!

Then....

TROS:

• Man, there are a lot of loose ends, this one is going to wrap everything up nicely. I know it will!
• Who is Kylo fighting in the opening? Why is such an important device (wayfinder) just in a table in the middle of nowhere?
• Hey, the Knights of Ren. Well, that was uneventful.
• Somehow, Palpatine has returned. WHAT?!?!?!? How? When?
• Kylo: Rey, your dad wasn't a nobody, he was Palpatine's son! Palpatine is your grandfather! Rey: Didn't you tell me my parents were nobodies and didn't I know it was true in the last movie?
• In addition to making the First Order without anyone knowing, Palpatine was somehow able to make an even larger fleet without anyone knowing.
• Oh wow, Rey just patched up Luke's saber like it was before. Opportunity wasted.
• Where's Rose? Oh, there she is doing paperwork. I thought she was going to be important.
• Finn: Rey, I have something to tell you, but I'm not going to.
• Ochi's dagger has the silhouette of the wreckage of the DS2 cut into its blade, and that points to the location of the wayfinder, which is in a room that didn't exist in the DS2. So this blade had to be made after the DS2 wreckage crashed on not Endor. Who would make such a thing and why?
• OMG Chewie just died!!!!!!! This is a huge deal!!!!! Oh, he's ok.
• OMG Threepio lost all his memories!!!! This is a huge deal!!!!! Oh, he got them back.
• Rey: Jedi, please be with me. I need help. Jedi: We're not going to help you until you've already fought Palpatine and lost. Then we'll give you a pep talk. It's not like any of us have ever dealt with Palpatine and know anything about him.
• Anakin's Ghost: I haven't spoken to my grandson because I've been really busy in the afterlife. I know Palpatine has been pretending to be me and leading you to the dark side, but I can't be bothered to talk to you or Rey or anyone else. I've been with the rest of the dead Jedi watching pod racing reruns.
• X-Wings submerged in the ocean for years are still space worthy.
• Imperial TIE fighters that explode if you spill Diet Mountain Dew on them are able to survive in an exploded Death Star that also crashed into a planet.
• Palpatine electrocuted himself to death. All he had to do was stop.
• Palpatine: If you kill me, I'll take over your body.
• Hux is comic relief and turned on the FO because he hates Kylo Ren.
• How did Maz get Luke's saber?
• This whole movie takes place in under 18 hours?
• Lando managed to gather an enormous fleet of "just people" and get them to Exogul in less than 18 hours?
• Kylo Ben seems to forget he has the force again while fighting the Knights of Ren.
• Palpatine can easily hold both Rey and Kylo still, in the air, and fling them around. But he loses the fight because he electrocutes himself to death.
• The First Order is mopped up in a montage. This kind of thing usually takes a whole trilogy.

I don't hate any actors or any ethnicities. I just feel like Disney made bad decisions and made some bad Star Wars movies. I loved Rogue One and Solo, so they aren't all bad. But the sequel trilogy just turned me off.

To answer your other question, I don't know enough about Duel of the Fates to answer it. I read about it a while back but have forgotten most of it.

 

FWIW, the Sequel Trilogy are the only Star Wars films not set in an already massively explored Star Wars era.

Like, even by the time KOTOR released, it alone as a video game had dozens more hours to establish its lore than the sequels did in their under 7.5 hours of total runtime (KOTOR runtimes tend to run between 29-48 hours).

Obviously it'd be great if films could stand on their own... but that's not always a reality with Star Wars. It's a big, massive, bombastic franchise.

That's not to say Disney and LFL are without fault. In my opinion, they should've supported the Sequel trilogy much better... not just afterward, like with EU material for the OT or how the prequels benefitted from TCW, but during the hype of this trilogy. But what we got was... very little. And it made the war feel little.

Like, maybe the best piece of ST expanded content I can think of is the short DLC of Battlefront 2. And honestly, at this point, that claim probably still stands. It's not even that great, but it at least shows more of how the FO affected the galaxy outside of the scenes we get on screen in the films.

So, I get why people like @Obi5Kenobi have these issues with the films... because the films really weren't meant to stand totally on their own. But they shouldn't have been so abandoned, either.

 

@Obi5Kenobi laid it out for you. There's also TONS of old posts that have done the same.

Simply put, a triolgy is a three-act play. If Act 1 is good, that's an encouraging sign. But if you are judging the ST as a whole, all three acts have to be considered. If the public's perception 'soured,' it should tell you something. The media's reaction is always a reflection of the public reaction. Nobody puts out negative content if there is no audience for it. They are in it for the clicks.

For those of you who liked the entire ST: Revel in it with each other! But the rest of us have moved on.

 

BOY, I really wish that they would move on, but they seem to be creeping by so very often, hoping for change. TFA was for me a great start to ST, TLJ was very good, but TROS was was a reton and utter disappointment for me. Instead of going forward with TLJ Jar Jar Abrams returned to reton everything...

I don't understand why some people want to know how others feel about a film, if you didn't like its ok, and if you liked it thats good for you... to try to convince others that it is a horrible film is an utter waist of time... if I don't like a film I forget about it, I move on... it done... nothing you can do or say can change that film... unless you are a filmmaker, and I certainly believe allot of folks would not like your take on the film, nonetheless... its utterly pointless endeavor, maybe if you cry and whine on how much you dislike a film, maybe the studio will change just to get your money...

 

Hey there. Just so you know, I have moved on from the ST and don't post complaints in the forum anymore. I did a bit of venting after they came out, but that's all over now.

Everyone who likes the ST, I actually envy you. I wish I were one of you. Sincerely, I don't like disliking the ST. Disliking Star Wars just feels... unnatural. The only reason I posted here is because the OP asked for the opinion of those who fit my description. You won't see me posting questions in the ST forum about, "Why did XYZ happen?" or "ABC didn't make sense!".

And while I'm at it, there are things I liked about the ST:

• Rey and Finn were instantly likable characters, to me.
• The idea of a stormtrooper feeling guilt and wanting to leave is a great angle.
• "Chewie, we're home". Man, I teared up. Although I didn't like that they lost the Falcon to begin with.
• Kylo Ren was pretty cool, and killing Snoke stunned me. That was a bold move.
• Yoda
• It looked good, visually.
• There was some good humor in it.
• BB-8
• Luke's scene on Crait
• Rey's new saber
• There may be more, but that's all I can remember off the top of my head.

 

The Force Awakens was a great return for the franchise, I will always stand by that.

But The Last Jedi went so subversive it was ridiculous. Rian's attempt to make his mark, to show how "creative" he is destroyed the trilogy; despite how much anyone enjoys what he did. I greatly enjoyed some parts of it, honestly.. but there wasn't enough to his story which warranted Luke and Snoke's sacrifices. Their deaths were wasted. They felt tacked on to make the movie eventful enough to warrant having an episodic number.

Rian should have made a spin off set between episode 7 and 8, and episode 8 should have already had a plan.

JJ was left with no choice but to crowbar a long dead villain back into the story, after Snoke met such a swift end without any real exploration of his character. He was forced to take a boring and safe route, which also had to tie up a million different plot threads.

Making episode 9 satisfying, as the "last movie of the Skywalker saga" was an impossible challenge after the huge mistakes Lucasfilm made with episode 8.

 

I liked The Last Jedi.

 

I love the ST and especially TFA and TLJ so this might be biased, but a lot of ST detractors I've noticed over the years are disingenuous and have bad faith arguments. That's not to say there are legitimate criticisms and I don't want to discount that, but it's so hard to engage with these people because they come from a bad place where civility is impossible with them.

 

Will you explain what you mean by being disingenuous and having bad faith arguments? I'm not trying to pick a fight at all, but I'd like to know how you came to those conclusions. I don't like the ST, but I always thought my criticisms were valid. Maybe I'm not the type you're describing; I hope I'm not .

 

It would be nice if we lived in a world where the fans who liked the whole darn ST could enjoy them while recognizing a lot of other fans didn't But for some reason, they have to villainize us and call our arguments 'disingenuous.' They tell us with a straight face how enormously popular they were while ignoring the staggering drop-off in popularity from the blockbuster first film, TFA, (which pretty much everyone liked) to the final two.

Threads like this one are a lame attempt to respark the controversy. Me thinks it's time to move one.

 

Yeah, for sure. I don't think it's everyone who dislikes the ST btw, I'm mainly talking about fandom menace folks and people on the subreddit SaltierThanCrait. There's plenty to criticize, but I often find that these extreme folks massively over exaggerate how bad the ST is, while giving the benefit of the doubt to the PT and being deferential to it. And this is coming from someone who likes the PT, I just don't think they're masterpieces.

 

^I think this is a great thread, and a valid discussion point. I've enjoyed seeing people's takes so far.

I too have noticed the shift in opinion over the past several years, and I always thought it was really interesting. And ironic too. How a lot of people who were disastified with the PT praised TFA for being an improvement and a return to form for Star Wars and such. And just how huge the hype was for Episode 7 in general. Fast-forward a few years, and now the hype has worn off, and folks are much more dismissive of the ST, with some even saying that the PT was in fact better. Quite the reversal in opinion indeed. And, while a lot of people still like TFA, it does seem less popular now than it used to be.

I enjoyed the ST personally, although I understand why people don't like it. And there are a lot of legit criticisms out there; just because someone dislikes the ST doesn't mean they're wrong or anything. But I do also think, as noted above, the Fandom Menace really takes things too far at times.

As for what went wrong exactly...

I think that is true about the media. But I also think a big factor was simply that, yeah, a lot of people liked TFA initially, but were unsatisfied with how things played out in the next two films. It'd be sort of like reading a novel and thinking the first third (or maybe two-thirds) was great, but then finding the rest of it to be a letdown, which would undoubtedly sour your opinion of the novel as a whole.

 

We do live in that world.

Just because others challenge the arguments put forward by people to support their position doesn't mean they don't recognize people's dislike. Neither does calling some of those arguments "disingenuous". Nobody is being called disingenuous simply because they don't like something. It just means that the arguments presumed to validate and vindicate that dislike are not necessarily sincere and as a result possess less validity/authenticity/relevance than they are presumed to.

More apparent is the notion that if someone challenges your (negative) criticisms then the people who like the thing just don't allow people to not like a thing. Therefore the ones that like it are not arguing honestly and neither is their like for it intelligent or honest. Therefore only those that are negative are truly critical, and therefore not allowed to have a voice by those that like it.


You don't have to like or dislike anything and shouldn't worry about people trying to change your mind or vice versa. But arguments ARE fair game. At all times. The idea that an argument is unimpeachable is simply wrong. And if the facts and statistics do not support and in fact undermine those arguments, then by definition their validity is inherently reduced. Sometimes to completely. Your belief or position that a movie is good or bad is still not affected by this.