Did something go wrong?

I assume we're talking about the saber flip. I can't think of anything else in the movie that could or should be perceived as flippant. If there are choices that seem confrontational, it's important to note that these are moments designed to have Rey confronted with an obstacle. Her naive assumptions about Skywalker's disposition to fight his nephew. Her insecurity about her parents disappearance. It's ironic that some criticise the sequels for Rey not being challenged enough when so many were seriously disturbed by the challenge to accept there wasn't a smooth and predictable road to overcoming those questions.

And for a movie that lacks a convivial tone, it attracted loud criticism for a perceived abundance of "undercutting" humour.

 

One of the biggest challenges this sequel had from the get go was that it wasn't about Luke Skywalker. For some segment of the fanbase this was always going to be an issue. JJ just bypassed it altogether by keeping him out of The Force Awakens. In fact, it's this film that sets up the "out of character Luke" since he abandons his friends and family. If he simply takes the saber from Rey and says "let's go save the day" it doesn't make sense. He left his friends, why would he suddenly care that some random woman is there with some old saber?

It's really a tightrope. Do you go full "WWE/soap opera" fan service or do you focus on the new generation of heroes? Personally I think the ST leaned too heavy on the past and it still wasn't enough for some people. It's difficult to serve two masters.

 

Flippant in the sense that a story element wasn’t treated with enough due deference as to be perceived as deliberately disrespectful.

The saber toss is definitely the most prominent example. Other instances of supposed disrespect I’ve heard/read over the years are: Poe clowning Hux with a ‘your mother’ joke, Finn being trotted around in his wet underpants, Ackbar being unceremoniously killed, Luke’s green milk mugging, Poe acting out like a sullen little boy after being emasculated by Holdo, Rebel infighting resulting in a mutiny, being sympathetic to Han Solo’s murderer, presenting Luke as somebody who would consider killing his own nephew, Yoda casually destroying some sacred Jedi relic, abruptly killing off Snoke, revealing Rey’s parents as drunken nobodies, Finn getting ‘robbed’ of his self-sacrifice, Luke confronting Kylo as a cowardly mirage and then dying on a rock because he was tired.

Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. I’m sure there’s plenty more head scratchers I’m forgetting. Basically, the perceived takeaway being that Rian Johnson wasn’t necessarily making cogent points about the folly of hero worship or historical rejection, but intentionally setting out to troll the audience.

Personally, I don’t see it. But I do see how that could easily be the impression that’s gleaned because of the tone it strikes. They were put off early on and then perceive each new challenge as supporting confirmation of that initial assumption.

I totally agree. That saber toss, for example, is SUPPOSED to be disrespectful. Not from the film-maker to the audience or the fans, but from the Luke character to the Rey character.

Like when Luke first encounters Yoda in ESB, the presented demeanor is performative. It’s an act intended to illicit a response. Yoda is acting buffoonish to test Luke’s patience. Luke is acting contemptable to repel Rey. It’s not who he genuinely is. It’s a role he’s playing in order to get this kid to leave him alone.

But I don’t think that fully came across on screen for a lot of the audience. They bought into the performance and stayed there and rejected it. That’s Luke now? An a**hole? No thanks.

That’s probably what I like most about Rey as the protagonist of this trilogy. She already had “the deepest commitment”, “the most serious mind”. That’s where she starts. Her hurdles are all chiefly emotional impediments. The thing most standing in her way is her. Her trauma and doubt and lack of self-worth.

I think that’s why the humor plays out that way though. What it’s “undercutting” is a fairly severe and skeptical script. It’s like Johnson finished the screenplay and realized “Oh, wow, this is pretty dour. I better add in some jokes and lighten the mood here.”

 

But it came across to the audience as the filmmakers being disrespectful towards them. You don't present the last five minutes of TFA as a 'hype video' for the next installment only to turn around and pull the rug out from under them.

Lucasfilm put the gun to their own head and pulled the trigger.

 

I agree in the sense that the moment could have been handled differently - less combative and shocking. Or maybe softened it by getting to vulnerable Luke sooner. Letting us know he’s still that kind, caring kid, but lost and terrified of facing his failure. The R2 moment gets there, but maybe not soon enough or full enough?

I honestly like the juxtaposition from reverence to irreverence though. It worked for me. “Man, that trailer was right. This really isn’t going to go the way I thought.”

That might be overstating things a tad.

 

You're right...since the film franchise is not dead. But since the release of TLJ, we're seeing the aftermath of a self-inflicted gunshot wound which is taking many long years to heal. The jury is still out on whether it will ever fully recover.

 

Some of the audience.

 

Yeah, it's a real mystery why we've gone YEARS without a new SW film from Disney.

 

Yikes

 

Eating Popcorn

 

If the Sequel Trilogy was so awful, why would LFL develop a new film featuring Daisy Ridley? I think one has to consider Covid, Actors/writers strike, and Kathleen Kennedy's track record with film Directors. I believe her contract will be renewed, she will not be terminated. According to some fans, she should have been terminated years ago.

 

It's because of Covid and the strike? FYI, since TROS was released in May of 2019, Disney's Marvel Studios has released ELEVEN feature films.

I suspect this is an attempt to salvage the STs the way TCW did for the PTs. But as fans, we've learned to take SW film project announcements with a grain of salt. We've heard scores of trumpet-fanfare SW announcements since TLJ---and not a single one of them have panned out.

 

Perhaps LFL is a company several orders of magnitude smaller than Disney? One of Disney's post TROS films were LFL production, and LFL has carried a lot of the weight on Disney+ in the interim. Actually, LFL clearly announced they were stepping back on films for a few years to focus on Disney+ shows.

 

Are you saying that the reception of TLJ and its follow-up, TROS, had nothing to do with LFL's decision to 'step back'?

 

The reception of The Last Jedi from critics was overwhelmingly good. Aggregating 91% critics ratings.

It was the most profitable movie released in 2017.

The only material evidence of significant displeasure is the anomalous RT audience score of around 50%. Online content creators had a field day exploiting that number. Somehow that was proof that "half the audience hates the film" which isn't even how RT audience score works.

TROS experienced the same drop off at the box office that ROTJ did in 1983. The critic rating was far more lukewarm and the audience rating improved.

It was Solo, released in the middle of the feeding frenzy encouraged by online "commentators" and the fatigue created by it, that suffered. Despite clearly being a different proposition to the saga films. People like myself didn't go. Probably for similar reasons. Like if you go to an annual gathering, of family or whatever. And a portion of the gathering is guaranteed to be belligerent or obstreperous. You find excuses not to have to be there. "Let someone else go. I'm sure we'll not be missed."

Dial Of Destiny got the same treatment from the grifting industry, which got to work on it as soon as TROS was in the books. Ensuring that before it was even released 4 years later it was already stamped with critiques about a film that only exists in the minds of people with an agenda.

 

Also, the initial audience response from theater surveys were also overwhelmingly positive; it was not until the online hatemongers and the public ratings sabotage campaigns kicked in that the vitriol started snowballing.

 

I was not completely surprised that some people felt strongly about it either way. Positively and negatively. But the rapidity with which some fans chose, like day 2, to claim the movie was unanimously hated was perplexing. It was explained that people “defending” Johnson (i.e. enjoyed and praised the film), as well as those who challenged the claims that there was a clear consensus of dissatisfaction, were shills. (There was a later modification of the “consensus” to “it split the fan base”. But I got the impression that was to be treated as bring just as bad as everyone hating it.)

 

I suspected the conversation would eventually revert back to the 'same old same old' we've heard a million times before in defense of the film. As I've said repeatedly, if you loved it---GREAT! Good for you! I'm not here to change your mind. But let's not rewrite history. I only got into this discussion when some posters opined that the critics of the film were being disingenuous and insincere. We're told much of the film's negativity was manufactured!!!!

Really folks? That's your line?

The Last Jedi was -- at best -- devisive (or as Martoto said, 'it split the fanbase.') It was pretty obvious that the reaction to it led to a knee-jerk move by LFL to 'fix' things with the final film titled (cue trumpet fanfare) The Rise of Skywalker!!! (uh, didn't Luke DIE in TLJ?) The herky jerky, ying-yang of the two back-to-back films appeared to sour the public who'd blown up the Box Office numbers with the first film. Again, if you liked all three ST films. Good for you. This take is not meant to criticise you for the way you felt about them.

But let's face reality here: The film side of LFL has been silent for a long time now. We're heading into our fourth straight year of no SW films. Whether you liked the film or not, TLJ threw a monkey wrench into the franchise. It hasn't been the same since.

 

It's the only response to reading the same specious claims for the millionth time.

Your begrudging respect to anyone who enjoyed the film is noted but not sought. It has nothing to do with the point being made. And nobody said your opinion is manufactured. The narratives that support its supposed enhanced stature and the prominence it's supposed to deserve are mainly hollow. Everybody knows that all or half the fans hate TLJ because someone else who disliked it told them they heard that was the case. Convenient.

If I had a pound for every time someone has called me a shill, I could give Disney their money back.

 

I said "we're told much of the film's negativity was manufactured." That was in response to a quote I highlighted from today.

Ooooooh, I disliked it because...someone else told me to.

Okay, you nailed me. (eyeroll) 'nuff said.