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SPOILER Hawkeye (2021)

Discussion in 'Disney/LFL' started by cawatrooper, Dec 1, 2021.

  1. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Only a week after the season premier, we're now already halfway through the Hawkeye series(!).

    I thought that it'd be fun to have a place to discuss this show here, since we had the same for the other Disney shows (and couldn't find one for this one yet).

    Be aware that there may be spoilers in this thread- but since this is the first post, I'll go ahead and tag mine for now, just in case.

    So far, I think Hawkeye is really holding up! It's exploring the more grounded aspects of the MCU, much like Falcon and the Winter Soldier, but does so in a way that I find much more engaging and relatable.


    So here's just my stream of consciousness points on the series so far:
    - I loved the opening, with Kate's perspective on the Battle of New York. I think it's pretty fascinating when these big super hero movies manage to take a step back and show us the big CGI slugfests from the perspective of a much more vulnerable civilian, and this nailed it. Reminded me of the brilliant opening of BvS.

    - Stenfield is great as Kate Bishop! She really nails the balance of goofs and heart.

    - That Avengers musical was delightfully cringey. I know a lot of people wanted a full version, but... I don't think I could make it through that.

    - So Vera has to be the real big bad, right (maybe a version of Madame Masque)? Jack seems almost too suspicious. He has to be a red herring (and I expect this week's cliffhanger is also misleading, if not also because of some clips we've seen in promotional material that wouldn't make sense otherwise).

    - I'm really enjoying the Planes Trains Automobiles/ I'll be Home for Christmas trope being used here, as well as the general holiday atmosphere. Really makes the MCU feel lived-in in a way that perhaps is rare for it.

    - I get that the suit is important because the Ronin's obscured identity could be weaponized, but I feel like the show hasn't quite explained that as well as it could've. We're so used to Iron Man suits and such that are actually weapons, but I think this show could do a better job with transparency that the Ronin is a dangerous symbol rather than just a really good set of armor.

    - The LARPing thing was great, silly fun

    - Tracksuit Mafia are really fun villains. I wonder if Kazimierczak will ever go full on The Clown?

    - Pizza Dog is love, Pizza Dog is life

    - I don't know much about Echo, and I thought it was weird that she's getting her own show- AND I thought her introduction was kind of strange last week. All that being said, this week's intro almost had me in tears. I'm all on team Echo now.

    - The action in Episode 3 was incredible. The fight in the warehouse alone was high quality, but the car chase was honestly one of the best fight scenes Marvel's ever done. That long shot in the car was a technical marvel, and managed to be convincingly immersive.

    - I'm excited about the Kingpin teases, though I expect he won't play a major role in this season. Maybe he'll appear in the end, but I think we have enough villains so far to hold for season one (noting too that Yelena is coming sometime too). That being said- could we be getting Daredevil in a Luke Skywalker Mando S2 type of moment? Not getting my hopes up, but that would be wild.

    - Speaking of Yelena, I'm curious how she'll come into play. We're already halfway through the season, and I'm not entirely sure what role she could fit in yet. I don't see her working with the Tracksuits nor Kingpin, and I'm not entirely sure what Contessa de Fontaine has in store for her. That being said, it seems like Black Widow is a sort of unspoken spectre in this series that haunts Hawkeye (super emotional moment seeing her name signed but not spoken this week).

    Anyway, would love to chat about this series! I've read the 2013ish run that a lot of this is based on and am happy of this adaptation, though I do wish that the artists (Aja, Fraction, Hollingsworth) were properly compensated for how their iconic work influenced both the story and aesthetics of this series.
     
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  2. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I'm definitely enjoying the show, but they better make the final few episodes at least an hour and a half if they want to fit in our two rumored guests. (Longer thoughts and feelings to come when I have free time either tonight or tomorrow evening.)
     
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  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    From what I understand, both this week and next week have a combined total of 80 minutes.

    But for what it's worth, this week made really good use of its shorter runtime. The more I think about it, the more I think this week is in the running for best Marvel D+ episode so far.

    But I totally get where you're coming from. The show feels pretty comfortable with its current cast as is, it's in a good place where the people we know can now further develop. I hope any upcoming characters aren't too shoehorned in, because at this point I think they're frankly not even needed. Hopefully they're used in a smart and effective way.
     
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  4. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    Until yesterday the Supreme Leader and I haven't had planned watching the show, but yesterday we're like, yeah why not, it fits into our Christmas movie marathon. And it looks more appealing compared to the other shows like Wanda vision or Loki.
     
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  5. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Random thought:

    If Clint has Pym arrows that can make things bigger, he could also have Pym arrows that can make things smaller. Imagine if during is dark period as Ronin that Pym was not only killing people, but sending them descending into the quantum realm with no concept of what's happening to them :eek:

    (Almost certainly didn't happen, but could be a cool concept for a villain!)
     
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  6. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    I'm loving the show so far and I think this show is the strongest and funniest one so far. Loki so far is my fav and I really didn't gel with The Falcon and Winter Solider. I found it kind of lackluster TBH.

    Lets just hope that voice really is Kingpin in the flashback. Also Tony Dalton is great in this film (loved him in Better Call Saul).

    I find it interesting that IMDB has Florence Pugh (Yelena Belova) listed in the final 3 episodes.
     
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  7. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Alright, so Hawkeye!

    In its first three episodes, Hawkeye achieves what no other show could really achieve - great pacing and tonal consistency. WandaVision lacked those things by design and Covid cuts; FATWS was 2-3 types of shows smashed in together, and Loki was too short for the story it needed to tell. But Hawkeye is the length it needs to be, the tone it wants to be, and is paced the way it needs to be. It may be the smoothest of the bunch. I won't say it's my favorite or the best just yet, because every show has brought something unique to the table, but it's certainly the easiest to recommend and watch, and I really hope they give this show another season.

    Other notes:
    When I previewed the first episode to make sure my parents would like it, I audibly laughed at the musical, knowing at least my mom and sister would love that part. They VERY much did.

    Hailee was perfectly cast as Kate Bishop. She's youthful, charming, witty, and endearing. (HER DIMPLES ARE SO CUTE.) She doesn't feel as young as Spider-Man - which is good because she isn't - but she also doesn't feel as goofy as Shang-Chi and Katy do at times. I think it's where she jokes rather than what she says, but maybe I'm wrong.

    Clint and Kate's dynamic is a very solid one. It's very reminiscent of Tony and Peter's dynamic at first (the older, more experienced mentor trying to help out someone who looks up to them and views them almost as the father they lost, but really just wants to move on), but Tony was more invested in Peter even from the jump, despite being a FAR more critical mentor (so far). The Clint/Kate dynamic is far more father/daughter from the start, though, because we know Clint has a family and we're shown in short succession: Kate being close to her father, losing him, being saved by Hawkeye, and being very uncomfortable with her mother's new fiancé. Clint and Kate also have that "Strange Minds Think Alike" thing going on, something that Peter and Tony never really had.

    Clint and Kate's dynamic is also solid because we've seen hints of it before, not just in the Tony/Peter dynamic, but with Clint and Wanda. Heck, several people have pointed out or even made parody videos about how weird it was for Clint to NOT check up on Wanda during the events of WandaVision. (I'd like to think that she was staying with them for a bit before she went MIA, and Clint was the one who notified authorities that she was missing, not the FBI stumbling on the case.)

    I'm very curious if Kate will join the Young Avengers if they are made (so far, we've seen all of the original cast but Iron Lad and Hulkling in the MCU) or if she'll just join the Avengers and be the New Kid like Spider-Man. I also wonder if Spider-Man will stick with the Avengers. I can imagine it being pretty funny if Kate and Spider-Man both try to be the new leaders, and then Shang-Chi tries to veto it due to their age, and then Doctor Strange vetoes it due to their mistakes, and then Sam just takes over. And then later on, Katy would ask for archery tips from Kate. And then even later in the movie, when Kate feels overwhelmed, Katy would give her some advice. (This advice could also come from Wanda, echoing the advice Clint gave Wanda in AoU, but I think it should be more of "we're normal people in this supernatural world, but we're here for a reason" sort of advice rather than "once you step out this door, you're an Avenger" or something like that.)
     
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  8. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Episode 4 is probably my favorite episode so far.

    All of the bonding scenes were nice, and it was fun to see Kate befriend the larpers and work on the Hawkeye branding by starting up a network. Clint and Kate's Ugly Christmas Movie Party Planning was a delight, and it really goes to show how much she values Clint as an Avenger, mentor/father-figure, and ultimately a friend (eventually).
    Kate's way of sneaking into the apartment was pretty funny, but she should probably learn Clint's way at some point.
    The four-way fight was fun, even if Yelena did more or less come out of nowhere. However, I do like how Clint recognized she was a Black Widow by the end and realized the severity of the situation. His Batman Sealth "Hi" to the Russian guy was also very fun, and somewhat heartwarming, in a weird, twisted way.
    I think it's fairly obvious that the watch belongs to Clint's wife - or at least I'm not alone in that theory - and that one of the two got it for the other at a special time. (Probably Clint for her so he'd know where she was at any time and could find her if she was in danger.) The more heartbreaking version of this theory is that Clint's wife used to be Mockingbird in the MCU before she retired. You know, the same Mockingbird character that was introduced into Agents of SHIELD through Bobbie Morse? However, since Bobbie never went by Mockingbird, and since superhero/codenames aren't as tied to their heroes, Clint's wife could have been Mockingbird before passing the title to Bobbie. Still, I highly doubt AoS will ever be mentioned in the MCU. Sigh...

    I may change my ending theory a little. At first, I thought that Clint was going to invite Kate to spend Christmas day with his family. I still think that's a very high possibility. This episode also has me thinking that he may invite his family up to New York, if only to sort of get a redux of all of the things he missed out on, and to reinforce that Hawkeye now has a community. Tactically and thematically, I don't think that would be a good idea, but I do think it's a possibility.
     
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  9. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Episode 3 is still my favorite, but I think we definitely needed the refreshing big breath in the mid season before it gets really real in the final few episodes. Lots of good here still, and I really like how things are coming back together. I was concerned this would be the "Yelena Episode", and while it's true that she was included, I really appreciated that we were instead brought back to Maya first.

    Agreed with @Use the Falchion on many points, particularly how they brought the LARPers back, and with Kate.

    The "branding" thing Kate keeps bringing up is interesting, because I feel like this series really has redefined the MCU's Hawkeye, but still in a way that feels natural. For example, Wanda/Vision/Falcon/Bucky/Loki all felt like pretty obvious extensions of their movie personas. But watching Clint in this series feels like when you start getting really close to someone that you've known only tangentially for a long time, and discover you have a lot in common and they're a lot more interesting than you once thought.

    Hulkling could be introduced in She-Hulk, I guess. That could be interesting.

    And Iron Lad sort of has already been shown, right? At least, one of his variants?
    He That Remains- with Kang and possibly more on the way

    Or maybe they'll use Ironheart for that role instead, since we know for sure she's getting a show.
     
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  10. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    That's a really poignant take on the show so far revolving Clint! I definitely agree.

    Ironheart as a Variant of that certain character would be a very interesting twist, and one I could actually see the MCU doing! Great idea @cawatrooper!! But for Iron Lad I meant the character proper and not a Variant. THAT BEING SAID, you do spark an idea - what if part of Ant-Man 3 is about introducing Iron Lad and having Scott deal with his teenage daughter dating? Oh, and the whole "I don't like who I'll become" thing too.

    Edit: Hulkling in She-Hulk would be an ideal scenario. I sort of wish someday we can get Skaar and his brother too.
     
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  11. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Definitely! I'd imagine that we'll see a few Kang variants in Quantumania, and Iron Lad makes a lot of sense given the increased focus on Cassie.

    Oh, the drama that could cause! I can't help but feel that we're all focused on Spider-Man right now (which I have no doubt will be amazing), but Ant-Man 3 seems to be a sleeper hit on the horizon. Not to mention M.O.D.O.K. being added, too!
     
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  12. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    One thingI would add...

    I really wish we knew less about casts in each movie. I know that whether or not Tobey or Andrew will be in Far From Home is about to break the internet, but that's kinda fun, right?

    Like, today's Yelena reveal was cool, but how much more interesting would it have been if "Florence Pugh will return as Yelena Belova" wasn't the first headline that you get when you Googled the show a few months ago?

    The MCU, especially with these shows, is in a weird spot where surprise character reveals are maybe a little overdone, but this one could've really benefitted from a little more surprise, in my opinion.

    Still, very exciting to see where her story goes! I think the show has done a really good job of showing how Clint still feels really guilty and upset about Natasha's death, and they've shown this in some really poignant ways. Yelena being here is a huge twist of the knife- not only is Clint well aware that she's a competent opponent, but her very purpose here really twists the knife in him.
     
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  13. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    To be fair, the post credit scene of Black Widow showed that she was going to be apart of the Hawkeye show. We just didn't know how soon her appearance was going to be.
     
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  14. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    That's true. Maybe the actual problem is just treating everything as a massive reveal. Maybe the mask was unnecessary.

    Or maybe I'm just a grump :p
     
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  15. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    Just thought of an interesting theory, given how next week's episode is apparently going to be a wild ride:

    Kingpin and/or Daredevil might make an appearance before the season's over, but we're actually getting set up for a faceoff between Hawkeye and Bullseye. He'd be an awesome villain for Hawkeye, he makes sense in the plot given he's one of Kingpin's top henchmen, and this also recontextualizes the coin scenes from the fourth episode.

    The main thing that makes me doubt this theory (outside of the existing overcrowded field) is that it doesn't leave much time to develop Bullseye as a character... if that matters.
     
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  16. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    It definitely was for most of the show's audience. But it's relatively harmless in the big picture.

    Interesting! I think that villain should be saved more for next season though. (Assuming there is a next season.) This season's focus seems to be more on Clint and what it means to be Hawkeye. There's the whole theme of identity going on, asking which part of Clint's past will take over - the Ronin as externalized by the Tracksuit Mafia Bros and Echo, or the Avenger Hawkeye as externalized by Kate. The next season could focus on what it means to be the world's best (archer) and all that jazz.
     
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  17. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Hawkeye Episode 5 was a win for the MCU and a win for fans in so many different ways. Well, two to three different ways, but they were all SO GOOD!
    Revising my ending theory for the second time, but the core stays the same:

    I think Clint will bring Yelena AND Kate back to his house for Christmas. Kate can't celebrate Christmas with her family anymore after this episode, and I think Yelena needs time to be with the people who Natasha was closest to so she can mourn.
    I also think that the show may end with Yelena and Kate doing some Christmas stuff post-Christas (and commenting on this fact), only to get the call and head out to a situation together as a sort of "the adventure continues!" ending, if that's not a post-credit scene. Assuming the post-credit scene isn't a set-up for Echo taking on her Uncle.
     
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  18. greysaber

    greysaber Clone

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    Honestly that'd be a perfect ending imo, and I'd love to see more of those two together so any hint in that direction would be fun.
    It's likely Echo will appear in at least one of the post credit scenes, considering her spin off show has been confirmed, though I don't know what stage it's at
     
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  19. Rogues1138

    Rogues1138 Crazy Old Wizard
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    I watched the Ronin episode 3 times. Character interactions were great and the ending, wow. Talk about a cliffhanger. Now, I'm really looking forward to Echo's series. The big boss should feature prominently in her series. I really enjoy how they have integrated the movies into this series looking forward to finale.
     
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  20. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Definitely. If this episode wasn't a set-up for Echo going after the big boss, I don't know what is. Admittedly, after this episode, I was wondering how a relationship between Echo and a certain other enemy of the big boss would work, and how difficult it may be for the two to raise a child. But what an interesting child they'd raise...
     
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