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SPECULATION Is legends root of the divide?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Sparafucile, Aug 4, 2019.

  1. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    People think Galaxies Edge isnt successful because it isnt Mos Eisley, thats rich. Would have nothing to do with the fact that to experience Galaxies Edge in its entirety is really expensive. Lets also remember that the #1 attraction isnt even open yet. I think for the casual person that is the #1 reason. People delayed a trip to Disney because they want to go to Galaxies Edge with Rise of the Resistance. Lets not act like Disney is cheap. People said hey lets wait a couple of months and turns out a couple was really closer to 8 months at Disney Land. Think about it.

    I was talking to my son just this past weekend. We are going to Galaxies Edge in January. We are likely to spend $800 on lightsabers alone between me and my 3 boys. That doesnt include tickets, food and beverages (we arent going to do the typical food either) and maybe more if we do a droid or 4. I can afford it, but for alot of people this is going to be a one time trip and wait until the whole thing is running.
     
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  2. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    My friend, with all due respect, you're unwise to blindly buy the corporate line. I mean, what do you expect the creative talent behind a cancelled comic book are going to say?
    Where did you read that? I think you are mistaking "well liked among people who read it" with "popular." I read it and I liked it, but sales figures are what they are. It spent most of 2017 ranked in the 50's and 60's of comic books sales (by unit), most of 2018 in the 80's and 90's, and then fell out of the top 100 by the final issue.
    That's what you call damning something with faint praise. Disney literally had the most popular trilogy in cinematic history at their disposal, but they choose instead to feature a location from Thrawn: Alliances.
    I am interested in your opinions, and I don't consider this off topic. The subject of this thread is why there is a divide among SW fandom. My thesis is that Disney is pushing out the thing that made SW so special. The movies and theme parks are evidence of this. I do, however, think they have learned from their mistakes and I am optimistic about the future.
     
    #22 Wolfpack, Aug 14, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  3. Darth_Nobunaga

    Darth_Nobunaga Rebel Official

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    Ehhhhh...."successful" isn't the word I would use for its overall health as a comic line, to be perfectly honest. Sales of the Poe Dameron comic actually slumped pretty quickly.

    It started off strong: its debut issue in April 2016 sold 175,322 issues, which is considered quite healthy in this current comic book industry. That put it in the same sales sphere as Star Wars Annual and the Vader comics at the time. But the thing is, in this comic industry, selling 150,000 units monthly is considered the minimum sales number needed to turn a healthy profit, or 100,000 at worst. Poe Dameron slumped all the way to 68,962 the very next month, and never reached the 100,000 threshold again, while Star Wars Annual and Vader continued to fluctuate around the 100,000 threshold for the next two years. By December of 2016, still in the year of its release, Poe Dameron had slipped to 38,839, which is a number that would make most comic sale analysts faint. And this was in the month of Rogue One's Release, mind you---so SW Hype wasn't in short supply. For the next year, it would bounce between 25,000 to 30,000 issues sold, and would sell 28,922 during December 2017, the month of Last Jedi's release. When it was finally concluded in April 2018, the series ended on a whimpering 23,760 issues sold.

    So, yeah. Poe Dameron's comics didn't exactly match the longer stretches of success of the Vader comics or Star Wars Annual. Hell, the Doctor Aphra Comics are the lowest-selling SW comic run right now, and even on its worst possible day it still does twice the numbers that Poe Dameron was doing for two years straight.

    This is a common misconception about the EU throughout its history, and while that might've been true during its inception in the early 90's, that didn't remain the case. When it was time to tackle the New Jedi Order story arc---the most ambitious one yet, at a whopping 19 novels long over the span of four years---Del Rey and LFL Publishing sat down with the authors chiefly responsible for the NJO, R.A. Salvatore & James Luceno, and mapped out the narrative trajectory of the series. They decided who would live, who would die, what the conflict was, what characters would get developed and how, and how the series would ultimately end. They would have round table meetings like this prior to every book, with every new author they enlisted to work on NJO---they even had a Series Bible which contained all the vital plot points of the series and all the elements they had planned out, which actually was distributed as Bonus Content on a CD-ROM included with the final book in the series, including excerpts from the Round Table Meetings.

    This is also true about a number of Dark Horse story arcs as well. Quinlan Vos' escapades were planned out by its creative team of John Ostrander and Jan Duusama. They planned out aspects of their Clone Wars run, as well as Star Wars Legacy, which had one of the longest runs in SW Comic history.

    Now, Timothy Zahn was particularly notorious for not ammending his work to satisfy other authors' ideas he didn't like, and that made him quite controversial in SW Readers' Circles. You can still find archived forum posts on TheForce.Net of people complaining about it all the way back in the early 2000's. A lot of people seem to think Zahn's stubborn tendencies and refusal to communicate with other authors was the norm, but it wasn't. Timothy Zahn was an exception, and the scarce few authors like him, were not the norm. Many people speculate that's why he was tasked with less books as time went on as opposed to people like James Luceno, who weren't so difficult when it came to collaborating or accommodating the ideas of other authors.

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    "...Old People? In MY Entertainment?! Don't you know that these geriatric old farts just clutter the set? I mean, who would watch these kinds of films? They wouldn't even be good. They're OLD. These characters are OLD. No one relates to that. They can't be part of a good story, much less be the HEART of one."
     
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  4. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Almost as rich as the people who think that the casual fans would rather go to Batuu (a place they never even heard of) and see Hondo Ohsaka (a character they never heard of) instead of familiar locations and familiar characters.
     
    #24 Wolfpack, Aug 14, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2019
  5. DarthSnow

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    Let's clean it up and end this pointless bickering. Please and thank you.

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  6. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Clone

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    I’m not blindly buying it, but I understand the difference between cancelling and simply ending. The ending of Poe doesn’t feel rushed as though it was cancelled. Nor does a series ending mean it was unsuccessful or necessarily cancelled. Some series just end.

    Perhaps I misread. Regardless, it was well liked, and sold enough to get through 31 issues. I honestly enjoyed it more than the series following Luke, Leia, and Han that I’ve read so far. But I’m one person.

    They had an entire universe of locations to pull from. Personally, Batuu is just as much Star Wars as Mos Eisley (the wretched hive of scum and villainy) and the Death Star, and is also the best fit as far as locale and other aspects. Mos Eisley is a desert, and Death Star is an enclosed space station. Could they have been made to work? Yeah, but Batuu works just as well and, to me, maintains the magic.

    [/QUOTE]I am interested in your opinions, and I don't consider this off topic. The subject of this thread is why there is a divide among SW fandom. My thesis is that Disney is pushing out the thing that made SW so special. The movies and theme parks are evidence of this. I do, however, think they have learned from their mistakes and I am optimistic about the future.[/QUOTE]

    Then i guess I’ll say that this likely depends on what you consider it is that makes Star Wars so special. To me, it was the type of stories, the Force, the lightsabers, the light vs the dark, the starfighters, and that has very much continued for me, which is why i’m on the side of the divide that’s enjoying what’s been put out.

    Why is there a divide? Ultimately, people are passionate about the stories they love, whether Legends or canon. This isn’t bad. The divide was made worse by extremists on both sides, who painted the other side as purely wrong for disagreeing. The classification of Legends put a number on edge before even the first movie, I won’t disagree there. At the same time, expectations for TLJ did not help things, nor did the phrasing of things from crew toward extreme fans. In other words, my opinion and observation is that the divide we see now is the result of multiple factors.

    Honestly, to me, Solo was ok, but it’s a movie I’m nowhere near 100% on. Felt like it tried to check too many boxes of fan-service. But those that loved it, more power to them.
     
  7. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    No I think casuals are wanting to go to Star Wars Galaxies Edge. Not Tatooine Disneyland.

    They also want to go to Star Wars Galaxies Edge, not Star War Galaxies Edge beta edition
     
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  8. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    I can only speak of Orlando since I live in Florida, but I can't imagine going to this park until it's finished. It's over $100 per ticket to get into the park and it's opening with one attraction not ready. I'm not a big theme park person anyway, but I'm not going to visit until both rides are open. The Orlando park will not open with any restrictions so it'll be interesting how it does. The Orlando parks are for more popular than Disneyland.
     
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  9. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    Have to concur. I want the whole thing not just 50% of the biggest attractions.
     
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  10. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    Do you honestly think the typical casual Star Wars fan echoes that sentiment? Quite honestly it seems to me like you have to work hard to even convince yourself of that....
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 15, 2019, Original Post Date: Aug 15, 2019 ---
    I think casuals - as well as a lot of hard cores - want to be immersed in the movies, not immersed in something that appears in a couple books and comics. I think they'd rather see Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader than Hondo.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 15, 2019 ---
    When is a Disney theme park ever finished? The Magic Kingdom is 50 years old and they're still changing and improving things.
    I won't be going for at least a year but I am indeed looking forward to it. I think it looks cool but, like the ST, could've been way better if they just honored the originals more. Are they still planning to charge a premium to get into SW:GE or did they do away with that?
     
    #30 Wolfpack, Aug 15, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
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  11. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Jedi Commander

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    i was looking at tickets today and it looked like one ticket gets you into any of the Disneyworld parks and you can pay extra for multiple parks entrance. The only difference is if you're staying at one of the Disneyworld hotels you can enter the park a few hour early before non-hotel guests.
     
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  12. KeithF1138

    KeithF1138 Rebel Official

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    I think if you walked up to casuals and asked about Mos Eisley they wouldnt have a clue what it was. Try it walk up to people and say what do you think of Mos Eisley. I think most people will look at you cross eyed.

    I dont think people are going ooo I can go to Disney and see Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. I mean after all Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader have had presence at Disney parks for decades. I think people more interested in the Falcon and other props.

    Yes Disney changes all the time, but when you no that the 1A attraction wasnt ready for opening that is far different then 5 years from now they add another attraction. Disney does not add a new attraction to areas of the park every year. Hell Disney doesnt add a new ride to parks each year. Simply not the same as the 1A attraction opens in a few months. Especially since the buzz was Rise of the Resistance at Disneyland was going to open end of the summer. Not 2020. This held people off.

    There is no premium to get into SW:GE. There is costs for some of the activities like the Lightsaber activity $200 and build a droid activity $100. I believe you cant even go in and browse around the Savi Workshop (Lightsaber ) or droid builders store.

    Lets also be clear that SW:GE has long waits. The crowds are down at DL overall and the people are congregating at SW:GE. So you are getting multi hour waits at Smugglers Run and 10 minutes for Space Mountain.
     
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  13. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    Really, I feel like a casual fan is going for a Star Wars-y experience, not to visit all their favorite planets.

    Batuu offers a ton of that (lightsaber building, cantinas, Empire v Rebels, droids, Milennium Falcon, etc) while still adding to the canon.

    Honestly, I'd much prefer for the other Star Wars mediums to branch out nearly that much. For instance, I'm sick of every Battlefront giving us a slightly different Hoth/Tatooine/Endor/Bespin- tell a new story, already!

    So yeah, maybe this is a problem for a handful of people, but I wouldn't overstate it too much.
     
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  14. KeithF1138

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    So agree. Even in the movies I groan when I see they are filming in another desert location. When news came out that filming TROS was happening in Jordan it was a let down. Not to mention picking a local like Mos Eisley limits freedom for creators to create. It is weird what I love about Disney having Star Wars is they can let creatives explore a galaxy and come up with stories and locals. Then it is the fans that want to limit the creativity.
     
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  15. Wolfpack

    Wolfpack Rebel General

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    I think some casuals would recognize the name and some wouldn't, but if you dropped them right in the middle of a recreation of Mos Eisley with the Cantina and DB94, they'll know exactly what part of the movie it is from. "Oh yeah, this that bar they went to in the first Star Wars movie!" (Much like how when I took my girlfriend to Harry Potter World I couldn't remember the name of the street I was walking down, but I sure recognized it and that big dragon from the movies)

    One thing is for sure that a casual fan isn't going to go to Batuu and say "oh cool - this is just like how it was described in Thrawn: Alliances..!!"
    Really? You don't think character interaction is an important part of the Disney experience? Really..?!?! You know they have, like, special meet and greets and paid photo opportunities with Disney characters, right?
    That's simply not true. Oh it was true the first couple weeks but as the summer wore on, the lines got shorter.
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 15, 2019, Original Post Date: Aug 15, 2019 ---
    A casual fan would much rather be immersed in a familiar locale from the movies, not just a "Star Wars-y experience."
    Casual fans don't give a crap about "the canon."
     
    #35 Wolfpack, Aug 15, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2019
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  16. cawatrooper

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    And in many ways, Batuu would be pretty indistinguishable from Mos Eisley, or Endor at times. Turns out, as a conglomeration of a lot of Star Wars most iconic planets (including Geonosis, even) it's actually going to play pretty well into the Star Wars casual fantasy.

    And look, I don't think either of us are really equipped on saying what "casual fans" will or won't think, but I find it a bit baffling that there's an argument that hinges on casual people ignoring all of the iconic features and being mad about specific details of locations.

    Like, even if a casual fan remembers those specific details, Mos Eisley is basically a desert. How fun!

    Again, let's not presume what people who aren't you care about. But even so, "story" is becoming a huge part of the parkgoer experience. I wouldn't underestimate that.

    But hey, I guess it's more fun to complain.
     
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  17. DarthSnow

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  18. MK-1187

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    I've never been that much into the Extended Universe stuff, I think I only read 2-3 storylines in their entirety. And I disliked a lot of stuff where the EU was going and it was getting very hard to tell which was actually extending the canon storyline and which was going, well totally Rogue One. But, I think that there might be some truth in that the EU is causing the divide. There would have been so much good material you could have used or slightly recycle it for the Sequels or stand alone movies (yes, I would have wanted to see Kyle Katarn steal the Death Star plans) But I do get that they wanted to scrap the whole EU thing just to clear the timeline after the Return of the Jedi in order to have more freedom to create an original story. Sadly, they did not create as an original story as they could have, but are just rehashing concepts from New Hope or Empire Strikes Back. Hopefully there would be more original ideas in the Rise of Skywalker, but I am not getting my hopes up.

    I also think, that the old EU worked better with the movies, as they were not that much part of the canon. You could just watch the movies and they would still make sense regardless. Now the Disney is doing a ton of extended "canon" material where a lot of things in the movies are apparently explained. And I have never been a fan of the idea, that I should have to read or watch a lot of extra material to understand stuff in the main franchise be it movies or games.
     
  19. mythos

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    I don't think I agree. It might be true for some individuals but I don't think it's the major cause of "the divide" overall. Personally, I consider myself a big fan of EU, but as others have already noted, there are a lot of weak/boring stories and characters there too - it never was a problem for me as I read the novels selectively, simply skipping the ones I don't like and I don't have a problem with it becoming non-canon just like I don't any qualms with the new movies telling different stories - I just don't like them as I think they lack a clear outline and suffer from inconsistencies and being too chaotic (there are some other things I don't like as well such as new characters and the presentation of the old characters but that's not relevant as that's just my personal impression and I'm sure that the kids love it). Also I'd say that a lot of Star Wars fans and sympathisers (I'd guess a majority even) who dislike the new sequels never cared for the EU (some doesn't even know it exists) either, so their dislike surely doesn't stem from the Legends.
     
  20. Wolfpack

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