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Is there a canon rift?

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by SegNerd, May 30, 2021.

  1. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    I can't help but notice that, as far as I know, Rogue One, Solo, Bad Batch, Rebels, and The Mandalorian don't contain a single reference to the ST. These productions do have connections with each other, like Ahsoka and Saw Gerrera or the Scarif reference in Solo. But there isn't a Mandalorian episode where Din has to transport Luke's original saber, and there is no movie or show that depicts Palpatine laying the groundwork for Snoke. I could be wrong and there might be some small reference I missed, but overall, it seems to me that the properties outside of the ST (note: "ST" includes Resistance) really seem to be staying away from the ST.

    References in the other direction are also very slim. As far as I know, TFA and TLJ don't contain any references to the above properties at all. Even in TROS, the movie that tries its darndest to tie everything together, the only reference I know of is that the voices of Freddie Prinze Jr and Ashley Eckstein are buried in there somewhere.

    I know that no one wants to hear that a beloved thing that has stood for 1,000 years 44 years is splitting in two, but I can't help but feel like there is a very clear division forming in Disney's Star Wars story. One "canon" would be OT, ST, and Resistance, and the other "canon" would be PT, OT, and all the shows and movies listed above. I hope that doesn't sound blasphemous, but it's hard to deny that the two groups appear to be staying deliberately separate (other than everything being connected to the OT) rather than coming together.
     
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  2. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    The comics have fixed this rift in a big way. The current Vader arc is all about Exegol, and it actually gives TROS a lot of context.

    I think, for the most part, what you're experiencing is due to the fact that the ST takes place after everything else. They don't want to go beyond it until the next big movie comes out, maybe not even then.

    So most Canon stories take place between Episode III and Episode VI. And it just makes sense for characters from Solo and Rogue One to show up in that time period, as opposed to ST tie-ins.

    But that said, I think they've done a good job tying together ideas from the Sequel Trilogy into other canon stories. Mandalorian features force healing, possibly even hints at the Emperor's return with that scene in the imperial lab. Rebels featured a cross-bladed saber much like Kylo's.
     
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  3. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I still remember how they marketed Heir to the Jedi as "the book will tell you how Kylo's lightsaber works!" And it was literally one throwaway line about three unstable crystals...
     
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  4. Angelman

    Angelman Servant of the Whills -- Slave to the Muses
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    It is quite natural that there's a "rift" in canon in regards to ST tie-ins contra the rest. ST is very much it's own thing, set after everything else, which means it is less "shackled" by the OT (which is ironic as the characters and plots in the ST very much ARE shackled to the OT -- that's the very premise of the ST). The PT naturally references and informs the OT as it was specifically created to do so, and everything that happens between the PT & OT either continues this referencing/setting-up of the OT, or it references something else that does. It's all a self-fulfilling thing, really; an OT snowball, if you like.

    The ST, though, has nothing ahead of it that it needs to set-up or tie into, nothing it needs to cover to "fit" with the rest. In that regard, the ST is the freest trilogy of the saga.

    Personally, I would like for future non-ST SW TV & movie projects to start references SW lore introduced in the ST -- like visiting ST planets or aliens or something -- but the fact is that it isn't specifically required since the ST stands proud and alone.
    I for one would love me some Abednedo characters in pre-ST SW :D

    I do assume that, as TV shows explore more and more of the post-RotJ timeline, we'll eventually start bridging into ST & SW:Resistance content for realz. :cool:
    --- Double Post Merged, May 30, 2021, Original Post Date: May 30, 2021 ---
    In addition to actual legacy characters (which, of course, are themselves references to the OT & PT & al.), there are a few references in TLJ at least. Holdo served under Leia during the Galactic Civil War and the Crait base was an abandoned Rebel Alliance bunker. Luke exposes about Darth Sidious and the failure of the Jedi Order, and Kylo Ren is mocked by Snoke for being no Darth Vader.

    Also, the hyperspace tracker thingy is indirectly referenced in Rogue One. It's never stated that the FO technology built upon any of the special projects that Jyn Erso reads off the names of, but it was supposedly part of the Tarkin Initiative, which all those projects WERE part of. So no, not a direct reference, but an indication of technological advancement behind the scenes (which I think is rather cool for Star Wars).
     
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  5. Pobody's Nerfect

    Pobody's Nerfect Jedi General

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    I don't see a rift. The idea never crossed my mind until I read this, and now that I'm thinking about it I still don't see it.

    Yes, I see the lack of tie-ins, but I think that's quite natural considering the state of the Galaxy at the time. The PT led directly to the OT. The whole reason the Rebels were fighting the Empire and the Jedi were fighting the Sith in the OT is shown in the PT. Of course there will be tie-ins.

    The ST begins with an Awakening of the Force. It quite deliberately bypasses the Skywalker bloodline and the ancient prophecies. Everything Kylo Ren should have inherited - Luke's final teachings, Leia's and Han's love, Chewbacca's companionship, the Millennium Falcon, Luke's lightsaber - ended up going to Rey. So you have a new protagonist with no memories of the ST or OT, no more Empire, no more Sith or Jedi. With that in mind what tie-ins do you expect?
     
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  6. SegNerd

    SegNerd Rebel Official

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    I stated in the post that everything is connected to the OT. I know the ST has references to the OT. What it doesn’t have connections to is R1, Solo, Rebels, Bad Batch, or The Mandalorian - even though these are newer projects that could have been more connected.

    It is sort of a gray area where the PT fits in - the ST does have some PT references, but I still feel like it ties in a lot better with the other projects.

    I understand the point about the time difference, but it seems like it would’ve been easy to include some of the totally different ST aliens somewhere in Bad Batch or The Mandalorian, or to mention something like Scarif or Corellia in the ST. There is a similar time difference between the PT and OT, and frankly the connection there is much stronger.
     
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  7. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    There's definitely a big rift in terms of direction, I mean The High Republic existing at all in canon is just nuts, it's so far away from feeling or looking like Star Wars. Legends did a far better job of establishing pre-prequel era lore etc.

    It's starting to look as if KennedyFilm is just a bunch of hacks injecting their own daft take on what they think Star Wars is, rather than honour what came before and build from that, at least to some extent.
     
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  8. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    (living up to my title) I don't think that's a bad thing. Part of the appeal of the PT is that it doesn't look, sound, or feel anything like the OT, or how people "think" Star Wars should look or feel. One of the disappointing things about the ST to me is that there isn't a change in aesthetic to the degree that the PT had. It's back to the OT style. And while I understand why this was the case, in retrospect I think it was a bad decision. If the High Republic doesn't look or feel like Star Wars, then I think that means it's learned a lesson from the ST, and that's a good thing.

    Middle disagreement here. I do think you're right - they're injecting their own take on what they think Star Wars is. But that's all any person can do. If you were in charge, you'd do the same thing. Lucasfilm "honoring what came before and building from that" landed them in hot water with the ST*, so them deciding "alright, let's see how other people view Star Wars and go off in a different direction" is a solid step forward. Not to mention that the writers and architects of the High Republic have a beginning, middle, and end associated with it the era, making it more concise and consistent than the ST was. I may not be personally interested in the High Republic, nor do I like when they've set the era,** but I do think the moves they've made about the era have all been good ones.


    *Not to mention "honoring what came before and building from that" can result in two vastly different perspectives. Jayson and I have had similar discussions before IIRC, especially when it came to the overall center of Star Wars and what to honor.
    **I don't like how it's set so close to the PT era, when it feels like it should be farther back, possibly even before the Old Republic. I also don't like the focus on "pre-ST" stuff instead of the company gritting their teeth and moving forward past it.
     
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  9. Too Gon Onbourbon

    Too Gon Onbourbon Rebel General

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    There may be such a division but I think the evidence is too thin to even rise to need to speculate that it exists.

    The time gap mostly makes it an Easter egg/nostalgia stuffing "it is a small world after all" scenario.

    I also pretty vehemently disagree with the desire for random iconography in a very technologically developed society.

    These folks have had hyperdrive for thousands of years, developments should be very incremental and scarcely noticeable in the small timeframes we have dealt with so far.
     
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  10. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Rebel Official

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    Rogue One actually mentions a major plot point of TLJ. They mention Hyperspace tracking when Jyn was looking through the imperial archives

    Solo had the gold dice neckless which was featured in OT and TLJ (if that counts)

    I believe Starkiller Base in TFA is the planet Ilum

    Also Poe makes a couple appearances in the Resistance Cartoon

    And a recreation of the Starkiller Base destroying the New Republic was recreated in the Resistance cartoon as well.


    Also keep in mind the The ST were still in production and wasn't released yet during the original airing of those shows and movies, so they couldn't really reference the ST without spoiling them unless they give us little nods (which they did)
     
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  11. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    The state of the galaxy we see in The Mandalorian is dictated by the depiction of the galaxy in The Force Awakens. Din calls it "a joke" when Karga suggests he report his concerns about Herzog and co to the New Republic. And in the next series we see a New Republic Ranger struggling to be taken seriously and then admitting that some in the new regime are more serious about securing a free and peaceful galaxy than others. It's this that the New Order takes advantage of in the sequel trilogy.
     
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  12. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Dungeon Master

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    For what it's worth, this is exactly why I'm glad they're not trying to shoehorn in connections.

    The way I perceive the ST as being built is interesting. While I think we can say now that it wasn't traditionally planned, I do think that LFL was careful to keep most canon content as far from the era as possible, to allow for whatever growth was needed. Since the ST ended only a year and a half ago (or a decade, the way it feels), then I don't think it's too surprising that the majority of connections so far have been in comics or books.

    I know the Rogue Squadron movie is supposed to be ST era, right? Maybe that'll begin the renaissance of bringing the ST to the rest of the saga.
     
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  13. The Hero With No Fear

    The Hero With No Fear Resident Sand Hater

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    Eh, I don’t think there’s really any substantial evidence to show that there is some major canon rift or anything like that. The books and comics do a very good job at tying the eras together, but we’re talking shows here. All of which were in development at the same time as the ST, so which made it harder to put in references to something that’s bound to change. Despite this, there’s still a decent amount of references and parallels to be found.

    There’s a lot of thematic connections to be found besides lore ones. Rebels Season Four showed Palpatine trying to bend the laws of nature for his own personal gain which thematically rhymes with his goals in the ST. In Season Two, Ezra found a crossguard lightsaber like Kylo’s and that was used in a lot of the promotional material since TFA was still pretty new at the time. We also heard a lot of sequel era voices in the World Between Worlds.

    In The Clone Wars, the Siege of Mandalore finale arc has a bunch of parallels like Anakin strolling out to meet the Separatist army, like Luke did in The Last Jedi, or the scene with Maul trying to get Ahsoka to join him mirroring Kylo and Rey’s “join me” scene in TLJ. I’m pretty sure we saw some sequel aliens pop up at some point in the Ahsoka’s Journey arc too, but I’m not for sure on that one.

    Resistance starts off six months before TFA and ends up taking place at the same time as TFA and TLJ for a decent chunk of the show and was one of the first stories to take place after TLJ. We even got to see the Hosnian cataclysm from the main character’s perspective and the characters visit the wreckage of the First Order dreadnaught and Battle of D’Qar. It has loads of references to those movies, especially TFA, and we even get appearances from Poe Dameron, Captain Phasma, Ello Asty, General Leia, General Hux and Supreme Leader Kylo Ren. The First Order TIE Bombers in the show originate from concept art for TLJ.

    The Mandalorian sets the grounds for the state of the galaxy in the sequel era. The New Republic is very present in the show and are shown to be ineffective at governing the galaxy, which leads to them being wiped out in the ST. The presence of an Imperial remnant in the show hints at the origins of the First Order. Whenever Carson Teva shows up, a remixed version of the Resistance theme plays and he hints at the presence of the First Order to Cara Dune. Additionally, there is whatever was going in with cloning on Nevarro. It very well seems like Mando, Cara and Greef found a Snoke in that lab but we don’t really know yet. And lastly, Luke’s appearance makes him appear like the larger-than-life legend that he resents in TLJ.

    As we get farther from the ST, we’ll probably get more references in the shows and other media. The Mandalorian is already hinting at the buildup of the First Order and Resistance nineteen years before that cold war even starts and Rogue Squadron seems like it could be taking place post-TROS.


    Did Legends really do a better job at that though? The technology and universe shown in the KOTOR era isn’t that different from what we see during the Skywalker era and that was much farther back in time than the High Republic is. The High Republic shows hyperspace working differently and we are getting to see the Jedi at their peak before they go on to lose their way in the prequel era.

    And isn’t injecting your own take on Star Wars all anyone besides George Lucas can do? Everyone has their own take on Star Wars and that’s why it’s nice to have a lot of diverse creators sharing their own takes in their stories. The From a Certain Point of View books are a great example of this. Everything in the last few years builds off what came before. The spin-off films, The Mandalorian and the Sequels build off the Original Trilogy, Rebels and Bad Batch build off of The Clone Wars, and the books and comics have built off of each other which makes big crossover events like Resistance Reborn or Marvel’s current War of the Bounty Hunters run all the more satisfying.
     
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  14. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    The only rift is in the imagination of fans.
    I've only read Light of the Jedi because it's just gonna be too much content for me to consume, but that book is among the best Star Wars books I've read. I'm very much looking forward to Cavan Scott's The Rising Storm chapter in the story. I guess I'm not sure what people mean when they say "it doesn't feel like Star Wars." There's good vs evil, Jedi, lightsabers, heroes, fantasy, and adventure. Seems like Star Wars to me.
    Lucasfilm is doing projects all over the place on a timeline that's 250 years. I don't understand what you mean by "other canon."

    My only prerequisite if for a good story and attacking different eras allows more space for creators to take chances. There's gonna be projects that don't work or that people don't like. I'm not loving Bad Batch so far. It's inevitable. The internet era rewards people for creating fake stories. There's an element of politics that's wormed into entertainment since 2016. Almost all the high profile content creators that are peddling this stuff are making stuff up, reporting other stuff that's made up, and fantasizing about the internal workings of a creative studio they don't understand.

    I asked Pablo Hidalgo a few years ago how far are they planning projects out and he said 10 years or so. That was back in 2017. That makes sense when you look at the animation for Bad Batch was in the works before production started on Mando. The production time on live action is quick and changes can happen fast. For film and TV they have allow room for production changes. That's why an animated series like The Resistance had to stop after two seasons. They didn't know how the ST ended when they were producing years in advance.
     
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  15. Martoto

    Martoto Rebel Official

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    Whenever I think about the thread title I imagine those depictions of insane people who are convinced that the washer and the tumble dryer are feuding with each other. No offence meant to actual insane people, or anyone else here.
     
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  16. Jaxxon

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    none taken


    I think there was a rift in the first few years of Disney Star Wars canon. But they weren't cutting out the sequels, they were cutting out the prequels.

    Clone Wars was replaced with Rebels. All the books and comics were re-focused on the Original Trilogy era. The Force Awakens mostly avoided any association with the prequels, except for a small voice part from Ewan. Battlefront had absolutely zero prequel-era content.

    But to their credit, they fixed that rift. And canon is much stronger for it. The current comics frequently tie prequel elements into the OT era. Clone Wars had a comeback, and now we have Bad Batch. Mando ties directly into the Clone Wars in many ways. Canon feels like a whole again.
     
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  17. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    This is a very good point. My biggest issue with TFA was that it didn't take any risks or move the story along very much. On the Disney side, this was a pragmatic choice. The prequels were not well received and anything they could to maximize OT vibes and distance themselves from prequels was a priority. JJ pretty much did it perfectly. It was Empire 2.0, Luke 2.0, and R2D2 2.0. No wonder some were shocked that TLJ attempted to break out of this trap.
    I agree with this... Lucasfilm feels like they've got a strong hold on what they're trying to do across all eras/mediums. Again, doesn't mean every project is perfect, but there's room for new stories.
     
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  18. Martoto

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    I don't think you can really call a shift in focus a "rift". And technically, Rebels is between trilogies and is connective canon, if you like, between the prequels and the OT.

    The OT has no association with the prequels except that it mentions the Republic, The Jedi, and features Vader, the Emperor and Obi Wan. Only one of those things is not actually in the OT unless you count the Empire which is the Republic under a different name and regime.

    The Force Awakens mentions the Jedi, Vader, The Republic and the Empire. Vader can't appear since he's dead. Ditto the Emperor and everything else that was in the PT (it pretty much all got destroyed at the end of the OT). Unless you count the New Republic, which is the Empire and the Republic under another new name and regime.

    I wouldn't call failing to spread the PT and OT eras evenly and equally across all SW platforms and products evidence of a "rift".
     
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  19. Luke556

    Luke556 Clone

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    I would prefer more ST references even though I dislike the sequel trilogy. I like the worldbuilding aspect.

    If they went off of peoples likeness of the trilogies we would never have any references to the prequels or sequels since people have issues with both of them. Then we are back to everything looking like the original trilogy again.
     
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  20. Sierra217

    Sierra217 Rebelscum

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    Same. Honestly, I feel like they should be focusing more on the ST. TCW and Rebels/Fallen Order really built up the canon lore around the PT & OT. Outside of Resistance, which didn't really add anything, we don't have anything expanding upon the ST era. I think Filoni and Favreau are beginning to fill that void with all their shows though; especially with The Mandalorian and stuff spinning off from it. Hopefully now that the ST is complete they'll start expanding upon the canon for that era.
     
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