SPECULATION KOTOR series

With the advent of the announcement of Project Luminous, we may get something akin to KOTOR and in fact it may draw inspiration from previous EU lore. For fear of sounding heretical, it may even be better. The fact is, the people at Disney are beginning to explore what fans liked from the previous iteration.

One of the things that defined the whole attraction of KOTOR was that it had a whole body of supplementary material in the form of comics and books that added depth to the lore whereas Project Luminous is in its conceptual stages. In a few years, who knows.

 

I'm partial to the content put out by BBC and Netflix. It would be nice to see KOTR along the sides of a meaty drama like the Witcher or something from BBC. Or even better, jump the current EU forward 15 + years and rebuild the Sith and have a GOT/Assassins Creed/ Renaissance Italyt/Dune type drama where people struggle for power.

 

Or maybe something like Sinister/Dexter from 2000AD? That whole gritty crime noir thing in a semi-futuristic setting with tons of humour (but not excessive). Better than Deadpool in my opinion.

 

I don't think you could do justice to KOTOR in a tv series, the scope would demand a massive budget. Would need to be a film or series of films

 

The Mandalorian begs to differ!

But more seriously, KOTOR is one of the few properties that I'd like to see adapted as faithfully as possible (KOTOR, The Stormlight Archive, My Hero Academia (they're already doing a good job), and Fire Emblem Three Houses (with a BIG asterisk on top)), and I think a series can dig into all of the characters and motivations that movie just doesn't have time for.

A movie can't spend thirty minutes with Mission as she goes to find her brother, unless it relates back to the main plot (which they totally could do, but I'd rather they NOT make it feel like a giant coincidence). Besides, a television show could spend time stewing in the emotions of some of the twists of KOTOR in a more...acceptable manner than a movie could. I'm not saying that a movie couldn't or shouldn't, but people seem to have more patience when it comes to those sorts of things in a show than in a movie.

I guess getting down to the crux of it, I don't have faith that a Star Wars movie or even a series of movies could do the story or the characters the justice they deserve. ...besides I've always pictured it as a television show and I'm not giving that up now!

 

The Mandalorian is you have a few battles that have a couple of space ships, or 1 ATST or a group a battle in a small town Still really small scale compared to KOTOR which spans a galaxy. If the did KOTOR I want massive scale I want the huge Star Forge space battle at the end, I want epic prequel level lightsabre fights, I want to see the Sith academy on Korriban in big-budget CGI. I want EPIC!

I do get your point they would have more time to spend on character development in a show. Personly though I find with 9 out of 10 TV shows they don't use that extra time well, they just generally cram all the main character points into the first couple and last couple of episodes and bung some filler in the middle. Its why I'm not a massive fan of TV and am much more of a film fan.

I dunno about trusting them not to mess it up. I think what seems to be the issue at Disney/Lucasfilm is they are scratching around for ideas. at least if they did KOTOR they have great source material to work from and a great story. Maybe they would mess it up, they would likely water it down, but if they do they do, we still have the game and if they get it anywhere near right then we get to see KOTOR on the big screen!!!

 

But they already have ideas and Lucasfilm already knows what fans want (they're too big and cognizant not to). Star Wars fans wanted an Obi-Wan trilogy or show, and it took Lucasfilm nearly five years before they could even publicly announce it...and it's been sideways ever since. Lucasfilm knows that there's a desire for KOTOR, and they're hesitant. And hesitancy can mean one of a few things:

Either they don't care (possible and before the High Republic I would have said unlikely. I still think it's unlikely, but less so than before);
they do care and just don't know how to implement it (plausible and scary, since it should be one of the easiest properties to adapt);
they're cherry-picking things ala Thrawn (in which case I'm worried since the cherries they've picked have been good but not great - and we need great);
they're waiting for the right time to announce this (which makes very little sense, given how prone they are to announcing things far too early in advance for their own good).

Promise, Progress, Payoff. You promise a big battle by showing one at the beginning, you progress the story by making us care for these characters in smaller, intimate (yet still evocative) adventures, and you deliver a payoff with a big battle at the end.
Lightsaber fights are a thing of choreography, and that can be found at the television level easily. The fights in Daredevil (and a few in Arrow) go to show how far television choreography has come. Shows like Into the Badlands feature great fight choreography.

Yeah that would be cool to see.

I guess my fear right now is that I don't trust Lucasfilm to do epic correctly. TROS was undoubtedly "epic," and it was the worst "epic" I've seen in Star Wars. I'm coming to realize that grandiose action and CGI battles don't automatically make things epic (although they do help!). We need characters to ground those epic moments and fights. The small fights in The Mandalorian vs a Chicken Walker and a TIE Fighter were far more epic to me than anything in TROS. And TLJ's epic moments were great, but they weren't about the big fights, they were about the little guy trying to survive. Once we lose our humanity in the scale, we lose what makes the battle epic.*

But that one show that gets it right...that's the show I want for KOTOR.

Indeed we do, but the game is dated and nostalgia is a powerful thing. There are those who couldn't play the game due to age or not having the correct console when younger, and now can't get into the game because of graphics. ...I may be among this group...and I tried, I really, really tried.

Eh...Lucasfilm needs a win, and KOTOR either needs to be a win or be a loss after a streak of wins.


*Endgame's last battle is an exception to me because that's the directors and creators saying "we've put you through enough emotional distress, have some fun," and letting every character get a moment. However I have heard complaints against that final fight because it went for "epic" instead of character.

 

I personally think when Disney started they didn't care. they wanted to use ready-made popular film characters that general audiences knew. I also don't think they had any intention of making an Obi-Wan film/show until there was a massive clamour for it.

But you look at Obi-Wan thing- thing it still seems like they are trying to figure out a story for that with the number of reported re-writes. the problem seems to be that they simply are struggling to come up with stories.

But again the fights in daredevil all look very low budget, you compare them to say the prequel lightsabre fights or even Kylo and Rey on the death star ruins and for me, they aren't comparable. I don't want a Daredevil level or even Mandalorian level of production Revan vs Darth Malek final duel I want OBI Wan vs Annakin level of production.

I just don't think KOTOR lends itself to smaller intimate production its a big epic galaxy-wide conflict. Of course, it needs intimate character moments, but when Bastila is trying to turn Revan you need to feel that the galaxy hangs in the balance and for that you need scale.

But that's it isn't it, say what you want about the new trilogy and think pretty much everyone agreed it looks awesome!!!! they just didn't have the story to back up the visuals. With KOTOR they have a ready-made story.

I don't want them to turn the battle at the star forge into something small its a battle that is determining the fate of the galaxy it should feel like that. You can do massive well and keep humanity. Star wars have shown that, with epic space battle at the end of return of the Jedi battle above Endor, The Battle of Scariff. the intro to Revenge of the Sith and the Battle or Courscant with Annakin and Kenobi flying through the fight. You can't do those size battles on Mandalorian budget.

but I guess personally I think it far harder to do well. Something like KOTOR would demand a continuous storey, Mandalorian, for example, made it work by making the middle episodes more reminiscent of stargate then anything else, they go to a planet they have an adventure it doesn't really have anything to do with the plot but its a nice story, then the next week they go to another planet.... Then at the beginning of the series and the end, you have the episodes that deal with the overall plot.

KOTOR would need to be more like a continuous story, TV very rarely manages it. I watch far more good films than I watch tv shows that aren't 3 or 4 good episodes the rest filler. So for me far more chance of getting a good film that a good TV show.

I didn't play it when it first came out as I'm really not a gamer I played it about 3 years about and just loved the story. But look it's possible to take the great source material and adapt, MCU has been pulling it off for a decade. Lord of the Rings did it. It is possible and if you do it well even if it's not the way fans picture it they will accept it.

Like growing up lord of the rings was my favourite book. Frodo and Aragon are nothing like I pictured them. I still utterly adore the film versions.

Your right it does personally I think KOTOR is a far safer bet for a win that hoping Taika Waititi will come up with something between his 20 other projects and hoping that he can do something that he has never done before that releases a film that isn't mainly a comedy.

 

First off, I want to say thank you for the discussion. While we'll probably not going to reach a consensus or an agreement (unless it's to disagree), I've enjoying crafting my answers and hearing your thoughts on the matter.

But that shouldn't feel like a problem, especially when Lucasfilm already has had high-profile firings for "creative differences." Because of those splits, the atmosphere around the show is "will this show ever happen" versus what it should be in "Lucasfilm is just trying to get it right."

If you haven't, I highly suggest you find and read about Star Wars Legacy Vol II, because the ST definitely had the basis for a story and the characters, and they still couldn't perform as well as they needed to.

Those Daredevil fights had some of the best choreography outside of The Raid movies. The one-shots were amazing, but they were supposed to look run-down, because that's the style of the show.

Have you watched Game of Thrones? If so, do you remember The Battle of the Bastards? If not, that's one of the few episodes I recommend watching. It's phenomenal. And that episode cost 10 million dollars. Each episode of the Mandalorian cost 15 million, and that was a new IP within the Star Wars world. Given those facts, I highly doubt money or low-budget effects would be a problem.

It's post-conflict in some cases and pre-conflict in others. The Mandalorian-Jedi War had already ended and Darth Revan had been stopped. Darth Malak was trying to rebuild and restart the conflict, IIRC. Please correct me if I'm wrong though!

But those moments only matter if you care about the characters, and spending time with them and having those small, intimate moments is one of the best ways to do that. We don't care about Luke turning to the Dark Side just because the fate of the galaxy depends on it; we care because it means that Luke has failed to save his father, failed in his promise to help his friends defeat the Emperor, and failed in his own temptations with the Dark Side.

As another example, look the two times Rey is tempted to join the Dark Side in the ST. The first time is with Ben on the Supremacy, and we genuinely worry for Rey. Ben now knows her inside and out, and she him; he's offering her the one thing she so desperately wants. But in return she has to let the Resistance - her friends - die. She doesn't care about the galaxy, not really. She cares about Finn and Leia. And if she DOES turn, there's enough time in the trilogy for her to come back to the light.*

Now look at the fight on Exogul (I actually forgot its name for a moment! I kept wanting to say Sabacc, which is a card game, or Malachor because that's a cooler Sith planet). Palpatine is offering Rey a chance to join the Sith and become his heir. But we don't care about that at all because Rey will never take that option. She has no incentive to do so, nor a connection that would make her prone to do so. Likewise, we as an audience have seen him fail at this so spectacularly before, so there's no reason to think he'll succeed this time.

Fair points about ROTJ and Rogue One, but that's exactly what those battles were. Yes, there were scenes with dozens of stormtroopers fighting off rebels, but at the end of the day it was about Jyn's team stealing the Death Star plans. Small conflict with impactful goals that affect the world at large, because scope is all about perspective. The same is true within ROTJ. We follow three fights, but all of them are relatively small compared to the action going on around them (another bomber run, an espionage mission gone wrong, and a very intimate duel). I wholeheartedly believe that Star Wars can pull that off in the small screen.


In ROTS, remember we weren't following a giant crew through an epic battle. We followed two soldiers through their journey while an epic battle raged in the background. The scope was there but it was personalized, and television can do that just as well.

The battle on the Star Forge can be just as small as it needs to be, so long as we're reminded of the larger battles going on outside.

If this was a movie, half of the side characters may not have received the arcs they needed, while the other half may not exist for time constraints, unless they're going to all start gaining spin-off movies like the MCU does.

I'm aware, but for the MCU they already had a mostly built-in credit by the time the major changes came about (the largest two early on were Age of Ultron, Ant-Man, and Civil War. Age of Ultron had been preceded by Winter Soldier and Guardians of the Galaxy 1, two of the most popular MCU movies at that time and to this day. Ant-Man simply followed the old Origin Story tropes that most people were familiar with and added in some MCU flair. Civil War was by the directors of Winter Soldier, reintroduced Spider-Man (who in turn was a blend of his Ultimate and 616 self), and had a direct competitor in Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice, which did the same thing you're crediting the MCU for doing but still received harsh criticism. All of those factors make us view Civil War in a favorable light in comparison to the changes they made. Of course the movie was also just really, really good). Most of the origin movies followed the standard Super Hero Movie trope and the characters' origin stories (just updated for modern times, which audiences are used to). LOTR did it successfully as well, but remember The Hobbit movies? That's what happens when you stretch out movies for too long. Meanwhile, movies like *shudder* The Last Airbender and Eragon are what you get when you try to cut too much out of a movie.

I'm really glad to hear that! I've heard of some people who grew up with the books who utterly despise the movies (there are so many Harry Potter fans who are like that out there, and I know my fair share), and I'm very happy you're not one of them. I'm not going to debate too much on this because I'm not a giant LOTR fan, but I respect the ever loving stuffing out of it for what its done for the fantasy genre.

Three things here.
One, I completely agree it is possible, we're just disagreeing on format and competency.
Two, it will never be the way the game is, no matter the adaptation. The goal of the creators should be to create a good show or movie first and then a faithful (in spirit if nothing else) adaptation second. My thing is that a television show would allow for the least amount of material cut.
Three, this is Star Wars. There will always be some sort of divide. The question is whether or not that divide can be discussed peacefully without resorting to name-calling and whatnot within the fandom at large. And even within that divide you'll find some hardcore purists.

Agree to disagree here. I think a Taika Waititi Star Wars movie not only will happen, but it'll help Star Wars out. Hiring Taika proved that Lucasfilm is at least willing to learn from their mistakes in terms of their hiring process (it now seems like they're hiring potential directors to work on shows first to see if said directors can work well within the world as well as test out how the audience feels about their style via reviews and ratings). Taika's movies are critically acclaimed and award-winners, and his work on the Mandalorian is seen as some of the best on the show. And yes, I did quite enjoy the beginning of the final episode, with the Stormtroopers. Did it feel bumbling? Yes. But it also felt like a throwback to C-3P0 and R2-D2 in the OT, specifically ANH. It was refreshing. Star Wars can handle a comedy movie in its lore, just like it can handle a heist movie, a war movie, a Shakespearian tragedy of a trilogy, a western television show, and a space-gothic horror comic book crossover. It just needs to be a good comedy.

(Sorry this one is out of order.)
Television manages continuous stories all the time. But for KOTOR, it's all about time management. Many shows have an A-Plot, B-Plot, and C-Plot. My favorite example of this is Avatar: The Last Airbender. In Season 2 there's an episode called Bitter Work. The A-Plot is Aang learning how to Earthbend. The B-Plot is Sokka trying - and failing - to find food. The C-Plot is their main antagonist also trying to learn a new technique.

A KOTOR show can do all of that as well. Let's say it's the middle of the season, so you're worried about a slump.

Let's say in the previous episode the crew just arrived on Dantooine. In this episode, the A-Plot can be the MC and Mission's quest to find her brother (which could have been the C-Plot of the previous episode, in which she snuck off and everyone was worried about her. But now she's finally opening up and asking for help), the B-plot would be Bastila and the rest of the crew finishing up their quest/resupplying for the next stop, and the C-Plot can focus on Malak so we learn more about what he's up to and who he surrounds himself with. Mission finds out that she just missed her brother, but she's happy that she opened up.
When the crew goes to Kashyyyk, Mission, instead of rushing off, will tell the crew that her brother's here, but promises to wait until they finish their main objective before running off (something the crew doubts, but she stays true to her world).

I'm sure an actual writer can do better than what I just did, but that's just what I came up with off the top of my head.

But if KOTOR was to be a movie or a series of movies, it would either end up with the brother subplot being dropped and potentially put in a book, or it'd end with Mission's brother abandoning her so that he could join Darth Malak or Darth Revan. Meanwhile Darth Malak/Revan had actually planned to kill her brother and recruit Mission to the Dark Side because - surprise! - she's Force Sensitive. And then Malak would tempt Mission, who would resist, and the movie would move on.

Again, back to a show, this could all still happen, but if it's a show there could be a little more time given to Mission and the MC exploring their feelings on fate, destiny, and all that other junk. (I know I keep using MC, but I'm trying to keep spoilers (for a nearly twenty year old game) to a minimum).


Also, it's within those middle episodes where the most change happens. Let's look at Avatar: The Last Airbender again. The Sokka from the first episode is vastly different than the Sokka in the finale of Season One. And compare the Sokka from the Season One finale to the Sokka in the Series Finale. That's the power of good storytelling. Even if the story meanders, there's still development to be made and characterization to see. The character changes may happen in those big episodes you're talking about, but they're rounded out, expanded upon, and tested in the episodes that follow.

The same is true for shows like Parks and Rec and Brooklyn 99, and those barely even have a plot! The Captain Holt from Season One of Brooklyn 99 is a far cry from the Captain Holt of Season 5 or 7, and the April Ludgate of Season Two of Parks and Rec is a far different girl than the woman she becomes by Season 7. (We don't count Season One of P&R, since everyone's character is a little off that first season.)

Would a show have a bad arc, a filler episode, or a subpar season? Most likely. But I'll take that over a series of disappointing or disconnected movies, which is what I also fear would happen.

 

likewise, always enjoy a good debate and there is nothing wrong with having different opinions and taste.

Reading through your post it basically becomes clear our main issue is you are more of a TV person and I'm not really a fan of TV I much prefer films. I just don't think rarely do TV programs have the content to justify their run time and most of the time I get halfway through a series and give up as I just feel like far too many episodes only to meet the number of episodes ordered, rather than to exist because that's what the story dictates.

 

KOTOR is back in the news, with possible theatrical film being filmed next year based on that general era. Nothing has been confirmed, but it is a trending story and I find it really exciting.

 

It would make sense if the remake comes out it in 2023.