Lose another character....Can we deal with it???

And for all we know Kylo doesn't off Snoke, as you said, we'll have to see. But my question still remains, would it be your requirement that Rey and Rey alone defeat both? The conflict that Luke resolved was not succumbing to the dark side. Ultimately he didn't defeat the emperor, Anakin did. Neither Luke nor Obi Wan resolve a final conflict... they win light saber duels and in both instances for Obi Wan, the larger conflict and danger remained. Rey has already won a light saber duel. How in your eyes is she not being given equal treatment? If they weren't going to give her a winning light saber duel ever I would agree with you, but they already did.

The only difference between her and at least the Skywalkers (and this is presuming that she is a Skywalker which isn't guaranteed at this point but assuming she is) is that she hasn't been truly tempted to corruption by the Darkside. (I'm overlooking other differences like the fact that she is untrained and still wins a duel against a Force User because maybe they'll contextualize it more in the next movie, i.e. maybe she had LS training in the past and just doesn't remember it). If she is not given that challenge to overcome darkness, and is not saddled with losses, that will be an example of not giving her equal treatment. Recall: Obi Wan lost his Master, temporarily succumbed to the Dark Side in confronting Maul, failed as a Master in training Anakin, and was ultimately struck down by Vader, Anakin lost an arm to Dookou, fell to the darkside, murdered younglings, and was defeated in a most gruesome fashion in light saber duel, Luke lost his hand in a light saber duel, failed repeatedly in training, and neither defeated the emperor himself nor was responsible for the destruction of Death Star 2.0

That is the template. If you want her to be given equal treatment (I prospect to which I do not object) give her the full spectrum of comparable triumphs and setbacks. Right now, there have arguably been no set backs.

 

i gotta agree with @Rayjefury a bit on this one:

Luke was lying on the floor in ROTJ. he triumphed over the Dark side, but he needed help to defeat the Emperor.
and while Obi-Wan dealt with Anakin in ROTS, i'd hardly call what he did triumphant. and doubt he'd think so either. maybe if Obi-Wan had backup....

so really, from a saga-progression perspective it makes total sense that there might be a combined effort for Rey and someone or multiple someones else.

• the PT ended in failure for a hero who acted alone.
• the OT ended in success, but by the skin of the hero's teeth with a last-second assist (in fact all of Luke's OT endings required last-second assists).
  
• maybe this time, with Luke's wisdom, he'll be more inclined to say: Rey, you're not doing it alone.

NOT because she's a woman (that's never been an issue in TFA), but because human beings need each other (in keeping with the ST's theme).

i particularly refer back to Rey's obstinate desire not to accept help throughout TFA.
it's her one real weakness and it's probably going to bite her in the butt in viii.
but she'll have learned her lesson by ix.

 

I think the one slight red flag they showed Rey having was that her ferocity could become anger pretty easily (and we know anger is a path to the dark side). When she came after Finn when she thought he had stolen Poe's jacket, the scowl on her face was epic. And I honestly think the only thing that saved Kylo Ren, was that SK base cracked, I think that man was about to be skewered something terrible otherwise.

That said as long as they give Rey realistic highs and lows and avoid any old sexist tropes, there shouldn't be any problem.

 

hahaha ~ that was me, i totally voted for her and i'm owning it.
i still think they can do something cool with her character.

i mean, they kind of have to at this point. hahaha

 

I just realized something about Han's death in the movie and how it fits the pattern of e4; bear with me, maybe some of you already realized this, but. Okay, so in this movie Han is like, Ben Kenobi now, right? I mean, he's not a Jedi, but he's the old character who talks about the Force, goes on the mission to the Death Star, and sacrifices himself by lightsaber. In the prequel trilogy you have the story of Anakin Skywalker and his good friend Obi-Wan Kenobi; and in the original you have Luke and his good friend Han. So the best friend of the main character makes it into the first episode of the following trilogy, and dies in that episode.

But what's weird, at least from my point of view, is that the way I saw them makes it seem different. What I mean is, I saw episodes 4-6 first, then I saw 1-3, then I saw 7. So when I saw Obi-Wan Kenobi die, it was in the same movie I met him so wasn't a big deal, because my focus was on Luke and Han, obviously, the main characters. When I saw Kenobi die he was an old man I didn't know his history there was no PT. But when Han died, that was the character I knew for a trilogy's worth of knowing. It was a blow. It seemed really jarring and out-of-place for a hero I knew well to get killed. But this is because I saw the movies when they were released, out of episodic order. Because they were released out of order, I got to know Kenobi in the PT after I saw him get killed in episode 4, whereas I got to know Han before he was killed; so it seemed a harsher death for me, but was actually the same pattern as before.

So I wonder now, what is the experience of someone who grows up watching the movies all in episodic order. So they get to know Obi-Wan before he is killed in e4, just like I got to know Han before he's killed in e7. I mean, has anyone here by chance grown up and watched the movies for the first time in actual episodic order 1-7? Was Obi-Wan's death in e4 just as harsh as Han's in e7? Did it make it easier to expect Han's death since you'd already seen it happen with the "Skywalker's best friend" in the PT?

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 18, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 18, 2016 ---

Did any of that make sense?

 

Interesting pattern you noticed there. I can't really speak to the rest of it since I saw the series in it's chronological production order, not it's chronological story order.

But it does have me wondering if this means Luke survives to the next ST and dies in Episode 10? Or if it's someone who's actually introduced in Episode 7 that dies in Episode 10?

Hmmmmm

 

I read something a few weeks ago about Leia being quite the opposite of who you're describing here. They basically pointed out that because Leia is so dedicated to her cause and fighting for a "just and democratic galaxy", she disregards the fact that Kylo Ren is indeed her son, Ben Solo, and separates any emotional ties she has with him. She intended for Starkiller Base to be destroyed with or without her son on it, but Han Solo came back quite conveniently and she then mentions to him to attempt to bring him home. Although this doesn't make her completely heartless, it's interesting to see both sides of her character: the side that will do anything to eradicate evil, regardless of emotional ties and the side that will do anything to bring her son Ben back to the light. (I tend to think that the Leia you're describing is closer to what we'll actually see over the remainder of the trilogy, but it's definitely interesting to see it both ways!!)

 

I really don't want Luke Skywalker to die

 

Oh, I completely agree. I suspect half of Kylo's issues stem from feeling ignored, pushed aside, misunderstood and not being able to make decisions about his own life. However, I think there in lies the power of the sacrifice and redemtion for Leia and Kylo, as Kylo has always probably wanted and needed to be put first by his parents, and Leia has probably always wanted to put Kylo first, but has been caught in the conflict of Duty vs Love. So what could be a more powerful way for Leia to go than to put her son before all else and sacrifice her life for him? Also, what could be a more powerful way to help heal Kylo's broken soul? Han has opened the door, I think Leia could crack him wide open and let the light back in. I think part of the reason Kylo didn't get his 'darkside power boost' after killing Han was because Han helped heal part of Kylo's anger, which is a fundamental part of his darkside batteries, so to speak. Han was probably also caught in the balancing act of duty/love to his wife vs duty/love to his son. I'm guessing Kylo didnt approve or understand why his parents made the decisions they did, but I also think Han's sacrifice and Leia's potential sacrifice will not be in vain. At least I hope not, or they'll be tears for days.

 

i love the sentiments you've expressed here (and i love the Dark side batteries ~ ha!). but i seriously doubt Kylo Ren could be healed by Leia's death. he needs life. he needs a reason to come home that will be there for him in whatever way it wasn't before (or in a way he can appreciate).

Leia has been, up to this point, willing to let her son die along with the FO. of course that's not what she wants, but she recognizes the possibility that it could happen at any moment. i don't know what would change for her (though i'm guessing it could).

i feel like Luke is going to have drag Ren back by the scruff of his neck to face her. i honestly don't see her going to him.

 

Glad you appreciate my unique vernacular.

I agree Kylo needs life, as you call it, but nothing in life will call or appeal to him unless he starts to heal those anger issues. He will only want to lash out or rain darkness upon the galaxy in order to vent his anger, or self medicate on darkside force drug energy and power.

Dragging Kylo back would only bring out his anger and defiance, as it would be too reminiscent of his powerlessness and lack of decisioning as a youth.

That only really leaves the option of putting Kylo down like some poor rabid dog, and that's not going to be very satisfying. Don't we all want to see the power of hope, family, sacrifice and all that stuff lead to redemption and saving of the galaxy n that? I think SW has more to offer than we all banded together and got the bad guy.

I guess the writers will have to come up with some good scenarios.

 

i guess that's why i feel like Luke's going to have force him back (like you said, like a rabid dog). i agree, he's not going to like it and it's going to be ugly. but this is where Luke will have to play his own part in righting his mistakes with Ben.

and i feel like Vader's sacrifice and Han's sacrifice is enough for this poor family. i'd be very sad to see Leia lose so much and then give herself up. even if it saved her son, she wouldn't be there for him in the aftermath and then he'll have lost both parents (and both deaths would be his fault, essentially). i think she can do it without dying.

and absolutely: if this story doesn't go full-out on the love and hope, it will have ruined the saga for me. hahaha

 

Nah yeah, maybe. Writers tend to go for the dramatic, heat wrenching play though... It does seem like the tragedy of the Skywalkers sometimes.

 

General Hux is the most expendable character though I love his leadership and devotion. He's seem like the man of vision, a strong soldier who climbed to his potential position at young age. He has what Napoleon, Caesar, Alexander have in common. A revisionist mind and capabilities to be the great.

Moreover, we need him to stay alive to develop the other dimension of Star Wars, and I mean the real war, the traditional warfare, not just the struggle between Light and Dark side of the force.

In my opinion, if they want someone to die, they must create a new character to serve that purpose. To kill off another OT characters without a good reason will rage the fans.

However, I feel that they've a plan for Poe to die somehow and I hate if he really destined to die. I love Poe's character.
He's maybe a cocky pilot, (well all 'the best men' has a bit cockiness, but it is his gentleness, humanity and leadership I love most about him.

For Captain Phasma, I hope she die as hero (of First order of course) than stay long enough to see herself become useless.

 

completely agree. now the question is.. can carrie fisher pull this all off? :/

 

I find your lack of faith disturbing.

 

I put Luke, Artoo, and Threepio.

I think you should put Chewie on the list.

 

I just hope it's not Luke. I would really like to see him as a mature Jedi throughout the series.