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The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

Discussion in 'Disney/LFL' started by Lazarus Dei, Mar 17, 2021.

  1. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    And fun fact - apparently The Hobbit wasn't even released in the US until the next year, and the US didn't join WWII until 1941...so that means somehow Bucky found a way to get The Hobbit shipped from Europe to the United States.
     
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  2. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Force Attuned

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    Thanks I thought it was the US government
     
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  3. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    [​IMG] !!!!
     
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  4. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    What an episode! The ending reveal, the weird team-up, the switching of roles...it's all great!

    Walker's infiltration at the beginning was a brutal yet bloodless reference to America's invasion in the Middle East (...and other countries...) and some of the missions there.

    The level of Sharon's cynicism was really surprising, as was Zemo's cooperation. But Zemo is playing the long game here, and we can't trust him more than we can throw him. Bucky is playing with fire, and he's going to be burned. Meanwhile Sam's dedication to his mission is going to cost him that boat and possibly his relationship with his sister. But that's the tradeoff this show is emphasizing - Captain America can't be all good and still desire a personal life. One can't exist with the other in the picture. Sam can't have both legacies.
    Also, Sam's optimism is weird but inspiring. He's faced with cynicism, brutal revelations, and grey-vs-grey morality, and he's STILL trying to be the Paragon. That is why Steve chose him for the shield.

    Overall this was another great episode. It wasn't my favorite, but it was still great.


    Other notes:
    - I've heard some complaints about the forced nature of the writing, and I don't think it's a wrong complaint. I'm enjoying the banter, but sometimes it does feel forced. Now I can justify it by saying it's simply Sam trying to get Bucky to open up, but that doesn't fix this issue. Ultimately, I think it's a tone issues - FATWS is a dark story, but someone in charge really wants it to be a buddy-cop story. I don't blame them, but I'd be fine if they saved that dynamic for a sequel series or movie. (Captain America & the Winter Soldier anybody? See it's different because there aren't any semi-colons!)

    - Bucky's comment about Sharon's newfound cynicism really speaks to something I've been feeling (that also relates to my above note): The characters in this show feel a little off from their movie counterparts. I can justify this for Bucky, but even Sam feels off in a way I can't fully describe. Maybe it's because we no longer have Steve as the buffer between the two, or because Steve was a solid Straight Man for Sam's jokes in a way Bucky can't be, but something is just a little off...

    - I have a few predictions on how this will all be wrapped up, but right now I think the most likely scenario will be: Sam gets the Flag Smashers to realize that they can't go back to the way the world was during the Blip no more than people can go back to the way the world was before the Blip...but they can find a new way forward. For the Flag Smashers that will be helping depose the Power Broker and setting up a new country that welcomes all who have been displaced and need a new home. It may not be a world with no borders, but it'll be a place with one people. For Sharon...I can see her either stepping up as a new major player in Madripoor if Marvel wants a spinoff about her, or I could see her returning home. Zemo will escape, and that may tie into the Wakanda Disney+ show that's being made. Sam will pick up the shield, recognizing that being Captain America isn't just about being the symbol of his country, but the symbol of an ideal...or maybe even a symbol of peace (MHA x MCU crossover anyone?). Lastly, I think Bucky will retire from the role for a time and maybe even go out on a second date with that girl.
     
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  5. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I have thoughts on this week's episode, but I want to listen to John Rocha's breakdown of things before I talk about my own. His episode breakdowns are long (2+ hours) since they go scene-by-scene, but they're really in-depth because of it, and they really provide some nice extra perspective. If you have the time, or are going on a long drive, it may be worth listening to. They're NSFW in terms of language however, so be warned.
     
  6. Lazarus Dei

    Lazarus Dei Tree Dodger Extraordinaire
    1030th General **** (Mod)

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    I’ve generally been enjoying the show, but it did finally step up the action this week and start to feel a bit more like MCU and less like an odd-buddy cop style show... they’ve got a lot to wrap up in 2 episodes though
     
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  7. Embo and His Pet Anooba

    Embo and His Pet Anooba Force Sensitive

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    I do like this more than WandaVision, and only because of Wyatt Russell.
     
  8. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    I'm still watching that John Rocha video, and today/tomorrow's episode will mean that I have even more to watch. So...yay?

    Anyways, Episode 4 was my favorite of the bunch...until I watched today's episode with my family. "Truth" hits hard. It's brutal, and I'm not just talking about the fight scenes. There are a lot of emotions, talks, and truths (heh) that the characters have to deal with, and not all of them are willing to do so. Characters that you thought might be allies turn out to be enemies because of their truths.

    That doesn't mean it's all dour though. This episode has some of the best laughs and warmest moments in the entire show as well. It's an emotion-filled episode, full of highs, lows, tears and smiles. You'd be surprised at how well this moves some of the plots along as well. It's far from a perfect episode, but it does lead into the finale with a level finality I wasn't expecting this series to have.

    FATWS doesn't shy away from some of the grittier aspects of the black experience and ideology, and I'm so happy it doesn't. This show has been very cathartic in a lot of ways, especially after the released footage last night.
     
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  9. Andrew Waples

    Andrew Waples Jedi General

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    [​IMG]

    I'll be honest, wasn't expecting Elaine to show up.
     
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  10. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Force Sensitive

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    I haven’t watched this yet and I think im going to start. Used to be a marvel guy. Not anymore. Maybe I might get back into it especially with the future of marvel on Disney plus
     
  11. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Season Finale is done!

    And what a morning this has been - the finale, family friends announcing a pregnancy, and MHA's latest fan translations!

    The final episode of FATWS was a very solid one that stuck the landing in a lot of ways, but felt like it took shortcuts to do so. Certain character arcs needed more time to breathe (which they probably originally had, given at least one story arc was cut from the show). But the action was on-point, as were most of the big (and small) character moments. As is the case with Marvel lately, their best moments have been the non-action moments, where characters can live, breathe, and talk. The ending also hit harder than I expected in the best of ways. And it looks like Sam has mastered Steve's ability to give epic speeches! (His main one hits really, REALLY hard. It's sort of surface level, but it's also one of those things that needs to be said again, and again, and again until people finally get it.)

    Overall, this wasn't my favorite episode, but it's one that sticks a solid landing in a season that I was quite afraid wouldn't at times. (It's also in the top half of my favorites, along with the previous two episodes, so it's doing good.) There aren't many twists, but knowing the outcome isn't bad if the journey to get there is well-done. And this one is.

    EDIT: This is a show that would have been great to have dropped last summer with all of the BLM movements; but this week was also an appropriate time for it as well, considering the good and the bad of what has happened. Life works in funny ways some times...
     
    #31 Use the Falchion, Apr 23, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2021
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  12. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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  13. Embo and His Pet Anooba

    Embo and His Pet Anooba Force Sensitive

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    Did you also hate Karli? I found her too much of a stereotypical villain
     
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  14. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Not really. I think her arc and subsequent storyline was undercooked and a little scattered, but I got what they were going for. I found Karli pretty sympathetic in a lot of ways, and certainly more nuanced than the WandaVision villains. So very far from stereotypical to me.

    EDIT: Embo if Karli is stereotypical to you, I hope that means the other media you're absorbing has even more complex villains! :);):p

    Since Phase 3, the MCU has been trying to have more complex and nuanced villains. Not all of them will be successes, but the fact that they keep trying is something admirable.

    Karli is a radicalized revolutionary (and/or terrorist, depending on one's view as she openly admits). She's a person who saw her people being marginalized and kicked out of homes they made. She found herself kicked out and ignored by the world in order to get things "back to normal" or "back to how things should be." It's reminiscent of displacement situations like those found in Israel and Palestine, or even just gentrification. She was driven to crime more or less, and when she gained the chance to get power and change the world, she took it. The harder people pushed back*, the harder she pushed forward, until she couldn't stop and think about a more peaceful solution, because in her mind (and sadly for her as well), there wasn't one. Karli wasn't validated, heard, or understood by those who mattered, so she screamed and fought and killed until she was heard. I think she's perfectly understandable. Heck, maybe I find her too understandable.**

    But that's one of the beauties of this show. Karli thinks in extremes, Zemo thinks in extremes, Walker thinks in extremes, Isaiah even thinks in extremes...but Sam doesn't. Sam listens, he responds, and he reaches out. Sam doesn't think like Karli because he knows exactly what she's going through and how little it will change things. Same doesn't think like Zemo because he's seen two counterpoints to Zemo's philosophy and refuses to play his games. Sam doesn't think like Walker or even Bucky - the shield has meaning, Cap's legacy has importance, but it's not about what Cap thought or who he was. And Same doesn't think like Isaiah, because the moment he does is the moment Isaiah's sacrifices become useless.

    And frankly, to me, 90% of Star Wars' villains are far worse than Karli in terms of stereotypical evil. The only four that are even remotely similar are: Second Sister, Maul during TCW, Kylo Ren (who utterly fails at this IMO), and the mastermind behind Ahsoka's big arc in TCW Season 5. I'll accept Anakin as well though, although I don't think of him as sympatric or nuanced after he becomes Vader. The fall to Vader was nuanced - or at least attempted to be - but the end result wasn't.

    So...yeah. Karli is real. We see Karli's far more often than we think we do. As a character, her arc wasn't entirely well done, but I'd say she's far from stereotypical.

    *I may be getting too real, but this is a very real thing that happens. Look at the protests and reactions to it last year. You promote BLM, and then people counter with All Lives Matter. You go to a protest, and you're a threat, worthy of tear-gas. So protests aren't working, and emotions and unrest boil over into riots but you have the wrong skin tone, and then you're labeled a "thug" or "dangerous," no questions asked. And this is far from new. Ask your grandparents about what things were like when they were kids or young adults. Ask them about the Civil Rights movement if they were in America at the time. We talk about King like he was so long ago, but the reality is that our grandparents lived that life.

    That's why Sam's speech was so poignant. Karli's reasons were entirely justified, but people reacted to the terror instead of the reason. I'm not condoning the violence that riots inherently have, but how often do people ask why people are rioting? How often do people want to answer that head-on?
    **I'm of the mindset that very few people change because they want to, but rather because things force them to. Usually this is external pressure or fear of loss or fear of missing out. If a majority of people in a culture or city aren't affected negatively by something, then nothing will be done. (Unless the person in charge has the power, influence, and means to make a meaningful change.) Cynical, but I haven't seen much reason to believe otherwise.
     
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  15. Embo and His Pet Anooba

    Embo and His Pet Anooba Force Sensitive

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    I guess I just found her fall to the dark side too sudden, because I thought she was great at the beginning of the series
     
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  16. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Jedi Contrarian

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    Ah gotcha. I definitely don't see it that way in hindsight, but I think I see where you're coming from.
     
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  17. dogs&coffee&starwars

    dogs&coffee&starwars Clone Commander

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    I really liked Karli, she was a strong female antagonist (you don't see those a lot which is why I really like Ventress), and also Karli really did make some good points, honestly, if I was sam I would have joined her. I don't completely agree with her, but she made more sense than Walker. i also was very happy to see Sharon again, even if she's slipping into an antagonist position. I really hope Sharon works with bucky and sam a couple more times before she goes full-on antagonist though. i would love it if they got suspicious of her, and then slowly realized what she is doing, and not have her be Villian immediately.
     
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  18. Lukestarbucker

    Lukestarbucker Force Sensitive

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    I liked Ventress too. She was also kind of funny in a dark way if you ask me which is a big reason why I like her
     
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