There's been an Awakening....

That would seem conclusive if you were arguing that Finn et al did stuff NOT because they wanted to do what's right or because they wouldn't have known it was the right thing to do otherwise.

But in the context of everything we know about the force it is just another illustration that knowing or sensing what's right is enough to eventually compel some to do something about it, while others who know just as well what's right and what's wrong don't act because they are not sufficiently compelled to do so. I wouldn't be surprised if the most conscientious person in the world confessed that helping others is not a choice. Awareness of what is the right thing to do is enough for some people fell they have no choice other than to do it.

 

I agree. It’s just the way it’s presented there in that scene that’s a bit clunky. A whole company of brainwashed stormtroopers simultaneously, and independently of one another, all unanimously overcame their programming and threw down their weapons in unison? All because of the Force? That has the distinct flavor of divine intervention to me. Like the Force itself stepped in and shut them down.

And when Finn seemingly responds like that’s exactly what happened with him, it definitely gives the vibe that the relationship was less push/pull than it was probably meant to be. Like the Force had controlled his actions more than simply allowing him to see the choice that was in front of him.

I’m willing to chalk that up to another thing in TROS that could have benefitted from a touch more workshopping though

 

That doesn't sound like what Jannah was describing happened, to me. And certainly isn't what we saw happen with Finn.

 

I'm saying that it's easy to misinterpret it that way.

I mean if I saw an object hurdling toward my daughter, I'd probably instinctively put myself in front of it. It wouldn't be something I decided to do after careful assessment of the situation and it's not like there was some invisible hand that made me do it. It would be out of a natural response to protect her. I think that's what's meant to be conveyed. It's just muddled and can lead the audience to draw the wrong conclusion.

 

The idea troopers of being "brainwashed" and then magically coming out of the spell they're under before rebelling has been a popular way of pouring scorn on the Finn story. It's pretty misleading though. Nowhere is it stated that troopers are brainwashed. They are taught to be obedient. They are not taught independent thought. Therefore they are conditioned to serve without question. They are likely conditioned to avoid questions, e.g. shown the consequence of non-obedience. But that's not the same as being "brainwashed". In spite of all the conditioning they've had, Finn and the other troopers were still able to recognise right and wrong and felt they had not choice but to do one and not the other. Regardless of the consequences.

Finn literally says this to Rey in Maz's palace. "I made a choice". That develops into "It wasn't a choice" in TROS. That could be interpreted as muddying things. But you could also say that Finn is recognising that it's not just him. If others are doing the same thing at the same time then it's not down solely to individual choice.

 

Quibbling over the definition of words is rarely ever conducive to anything approaching a constructive conversation. Especially when two people are essentially saying the same thing. But out of pure genuine intrigue on my part, I’d honesty like to know how else you would define that term beyond what you wrote.

If the methodical programming of an individual to think and act the way you want without question doesn’t count as “brainwashing”, then . . . well, what does? I’m fascinated to know your thought process on this.

 

A person who is conditioned to wipe their feet on the way over a doorstep is not brainwashed. It's just the behaviour that they are used to and wouldn't normally question it. However they learned the habit.

 

Sorry to be so discerning, but you just gave another example of what DOESN’T count. Is there any way you could maybe articulate, in your opinion, what does? I’m not intending this an attack or a ‘gotcha’, I’m just legitimately interested to know (what to me is) your unique perspective.

 

Someone who has been brainwashed has had their mind affected in order not to perceive the facts or their own senses and act accordingly. Someone that's been brainwashed will continue to perceive things as they have been told in spite of reality showing them otherwise. That's not someone who is conditioned to behave in a certain way at certain times.

 

That’s truly a very distinct perspective. Thank you for sharing.

Brainwashing (or psychological kidnapping if you prefer) is the act of subjecting individuals to profound coercive techniques for the purpose of controlling their actions or beliefs or emotions. It’s typically denoted by isolating an individual from a recognizable support system and indoctrinating them into a severe system of conformity. It’s often associated with the predatorial nature of extremist cults.
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In other words: A ‘re-education camp’.

Because Finn failed to act in compliance with their rigid behavior control, he must now be ‘reprogrammed’.

Stormtroopers aren’t simply conditioned to behave a certain way at certain times, they are “programmed” to conform. Programmed to kill.

Finn was extracted from his recognizable support system, placed in a construct of severe behavior restraint, and then programmed to take other people’s lives without question.
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We aren’t talking about someone being culturally conditioned to say “bless you” when hearing somebody sneeze. We’re talking about fundamentally rewiring a young person’s brain so that they’ll devalue human life and kill on command. The First Order is certainly presented as a cult-like group and definitely practices a form of intense menticide that could accurately be described as “brainwashing”.

That’s why his refusing to kill is so remarkable and inspirational. It’s what he was designed to do. It was his express purpose for even existing. And he rejected it because deep down he knew it was wrong.

 

I always saw it as indoctrination, not unlike Mando. Both were raised in an isolated sect with little knowledge of their homeworld and/or legacy stripped away and told that this is the way things MUST be. Under this indoctrination, Finn learns their views of right and wrong, but as seen in various background sources, he still does what he thinks is best for the group of individuals as opposed to the group or the mission. Ironically, it's because he thinks of his fellow soldiers as individuals that he isn't given a nickname. But none of the ST Stormtroopers as far as we know are like the PT Clone Troopers, who have literal chips in their head to force them to behave a certain way when a trigger world comes up...like, say Order 66. (In the new canon. In the old canon IIRC, the clones weren't forcibly controlled so much as conditioned.)
The point is, for most of the trilogy, Finn's decision to not fire on civilians and later defect was one born of a moral that he had developed despite his conditioning, one that he inherently had that the system he was in couldn't beat or "brainwash" or critique or condition out of him.
From that mindset, I can see the reveal in TROS that it was the Force the entire time making one feel like it was all a copout. Heck, I share some of that sentiment. But at the same time, I'm a fan of "The Awakening" being when Finn and Rey working in tandem. Add in Finn's subtle Force foreshadowing in TLJ with him seeing the Jedi books and the confirmation of his Force Sensitivity in TROS, and it adds up to me. I may not fully like the math, but it adds up.
Finn recognizing this Awakening in others and being able to point them to the reason works. Still, I can't deny that it does do something to weaken his own agency.

But maybe it's one of those "The Force gave me the moral strength and fiber to make this choice, and now I recognize its role in all of this."

 

None of that means they are in a magic spell and Finn is magically transformed in an instant nto a normal free thinking conscientious person. That just wouldn't be at all credible or even possible for someone "brainwashed".

Phasma talks about re-conditioning. The fact that there needs to be place "reconditioning" in the first tells us that it's not some magic mind control trick that's done to them.

 

You know...Phasma's words left me wondering if any more stormtroopers had had to be 'reprogrammed?' If others had rebelled against their brainwashing, and had been once again submitted for reconditioning?

I really wish they'd explored this more in TROS. Even TLJ, which I loved, didn't address the possibility of others wanting to escape the FO, although we did get that little hint of things not being so 'black and white' with DJ's speech and the revelation that the Resistance bought their weapons from the same dealers as the FO.

 

I don’t recall ever saying anything about “magic”. I mentioned “breaking the spell” in a figurative sense. Finn was “programmed” to conform through conditioning to do something against his nature - to take an innocent life without question. When it came time to do exactly that, to fulfill his purpose, he refused. That’s what’s happening with the character. He defied his programming because he knew it was wrong.

I implore you, please lookup what the word “brainwash” actually means. Not how it’s been depicted in pop culture schlock, but the practical real world origins of the concept and its very tangible effects on exploited individuals. It’s not “magic”. It’s simply a form of intense psychological conditioning.

If what you’re saying is that it’s unrealistic that a victim of a lifetime of forced education would, in an instant, overcome that level of severe mind manipulation, well sure. It’s a movie. And a fantasy movie at that. It’s taking a true-to-life concept and exaggerating it for dramatic and allegorical effect.

The text isn’t to be taken literally. It’s the subtext behind it that’s the important part: Someone who had been stripped of his humanity was able to find the resolve to reclaim it. If you, 12-year-old watching this, ever finds yourself in a somewhat similar situation, then think about what Finn did and do the right thing. That’s the point.

Again, we’re saying the same thing. We’re just disagreeing on what to call it. Which is honestly pretty silly.

 

It has been a popular complaint that Finn is too quick to blast away at FO troopers after he defects, because they are just brainwashed automatons incapable of having independent thought and therefore aren't responsible for any of their actions or for being FO troopers, just like Finn had been moments before. The truth is that, in spite of how they were trained, Finn's former comrades have the same choice to make that Finn did. And are either unwilling or unable to make that choice.

Finn was definitely not conditioned to take an innocent life or to carry out any orders like "kill those innocent people". He's conditioned to kill the enemies of the First Order, as ordered. Finn recognised that the villagers on Jakku he was ordered to kill were not enemies of the First Order and chose not to follow those orders.

 

Yet TROS retconned that by having 'the Force' stop him.

 

Sooner or later, everything in Star Wars has been attributed to the force by at least someone. I don't know how that can surprise or annoy anyone at this stage. It's not like people have ever been up in arms about the Jedi and their good guy exploits not being much to get excited about since the force guides their actions and gives them their powers.

It seems that Disney are dammed for teasing but not making Finn a Jedi during the trilogy, but also dammed for having Finn express an insight and a belief that trained Jedi share.

 

But did the force just call out to these or did the others just not listen? In that case it comes back to choice.

 

Yep. Lucas has once said that the force is not special to any one person. It's just a way of expressing destiny and the one can have a greater destiny if they choose to take it when the opportunity presented. Some people cannot see when their destiny is being shown to them. Or they see but can't/don't act to meet that destiny. For the force it's "listening" to hear it. Or feeling it flow.

 

Ooooooooh, OK. I think I get where you’re coming from now. You don’t want to view the FO Stormtroopers as victims in a predatorial system of exploitation because that would make you feel uncomfortable with the prospect of our heroes killing them. If they had a choice in the matter, then that would make it more justifiable in your mind. Then it’s their own fault for being there in the first place and are essentially getting what they deserve.

To me, that perspective dramatic undercuts the monstrous nature of what the FO has done and intends to do (by extension) to the rest of the galaxy. The First Order’s brand of ‘order’ is to strip away freedom - to rob everyone of their self-determination and force them to obey. They want to mechanize the populace and annihilate their humanity. But the indominable spirit of rebellion will inevitably find a way. That’s what Finn represents.

It’s a theme in George’s work that goes back to THX-1138 (and earlier). The construct of an individual, born into a dehumanizing system of control, being ‘awakened’ to the innate horror of an environment he’d previous accepted as normal and tries to escape from.

It’s a concept he’d been enamored with since he saw Arthur Lipsett’s 21-87, where an excerpt of a conversation between Warren S. McCulloch and Roman Kroitor served as the basis for defining what it is to be human. Are we just machines that can be easily assigned a number and a task? Or is there some kind of invisible, undefinable “force” that compels us to become more than just the sum of our parts? That’s what FN-2187 is speaking to. That’s his journey.

The idea is that the “enemies of the First Order” are whoever the First Order says they are. Is it a platoon of highly trained and armed soldiers? Is it a totally defenseless child? The expectation is the same: pull the trigger without question. The classifications of ‘guilt’ and ‘innocence’ are irrelevant in that design. But Finn recognized it anyway and rejected his programming. That’s the feat. When all traces of humanity should have been drilled out of him long ago, he reclaimed it for himself. Because he’s a man and not a machine. Star Wars!