Were "fan expectations" the problem?

First off! Welcome to the forum! It's always nice to see a new person jump in...
As someone who loves The Last Jedi I accept there are people who don't like the film. Star Wars is a massive IP so there's always going to be a large group upset with something. The truth of the matter is that people who didn't like the film are a tiny minority. Every controlled sample has supported that and that's okay. Lucasfilm is producing a lot of new content and it's impossible to make everyone happy.

There was a plan. Multiple people have said there was a plan as far back as 2014. This has been stated by Adam Driver, Daisy Ridley, Kiri Hart, and it's reflected in the Art Of books.

To be fair, she's only spent a few hours with Finn so far. She's spent more time interacting with Kylo, Luke, and Chewie. Obviously her and Finn are close, but Finn isn't the only person she is close with after two films.

 

Thank you for welcoming into the forum! I look forward to discuss Star Wars in this media as I think it's the best place to do so without being toxic and being respectful to each other. Tough I have to disagree with the fact that only a vocal minority didn't like TLJ, as it also has a very low score on Metacritic and even Imdb, which granted, some of the ratings are from trolls.

And even though I'm not as excited as I'd like to be for Episode IX, I wanna remain hopeful that JJ will end the saga in a satisfaying way. Fortunately, there are lots of things to be excited for moving forward, like the Mandalorian tv show and the Benioff and Weiss trilogy.

 

Wanting more is being against Finn?
Two movies have passed and I would EASILY argue Kylo Ren and Luke have had as much impact on Rey's belonging as Finn.

Non-existent?
Now I know you are just trolling. Have a good one.

 

I too would like to welcome you to the Cantina. While many of us have varying views, it does tend to stay civil in here for the most part.

I see the complaint a lot that there was no plan for the ST. I do not think that is the case. I don’t think there was a super detailed plan but they did have an idea where they want the story to go. That is where the filmmakers had a lot of latitude on how they wanted to get there. However even with that creative freedom there ideas had to be given the ok by Lucasfilm. This was proven when they brought in Gilroy to clean up R1 and parted ways with Lord and Miller with Solo. I do however think it is fair to criticize that it does not feel like they had a plan. There definitely is two different styles between TFA and TLJ so I get where some may complain about it.

As far as the question of how Rey got her powers, it has been answered. Snoke tells us when he says “I warned my young apprentice that as he grew stronger, his equal in the light would rise. That is really all the explanation needed. Some may not like the answer and that is their prerogative (cue Bobby Brown) but it has been answered. I sometimes think that these days because of the internet and all that comes with it we are hyper-critical and over analyze everything. Back in the day we just watched the movies and enjoyed them for what they were

 

Could please stop saying this as nobody knows the % of people that love, like, mixed, hate the film. What happens is you will bring up the numbers that suit your argument, and than the other side will bring up numbers like the Rotten Tomato score for example. You will both dismiss the others numbers, so nobody really knows as there is no way to tell how the millions of SW fans (casual, general, diehard) feel about the movie.

 

My impression (not based on any particular numbers) is that the majority of those who disliked TLJ were your more serious fans than the casual movie goers.

 

This is actually a fallacy. We do know roughly what percentage of people liked the film and who didn't. There were several controlled samples that show the vast majority of people enjoyed it. That's an indisputable fact.

Yes, someone may bring up the RT score, but no one who understands the science behind sample would ever take it seriously. If someone has a controlled sampling that disputes the data we have I'd love to see it.

I didn't like The Shape of Water or Green Book (as much as others), but they're both Best Picture winners. There's no accounting for taste, but the numbers are what they are.

 

Thank you for welcoming into the Cantina! The vibe in this forum seems so positive and refreshing compared to every other social media platform.

As for the Rey's powers explanation, I think it's a pretty lazy and dumb explanation because basically Kylo did all the training for her and she didn't earn it, but given it was JJ who created the character of Rey and was the one who set up the mysteries around her, I'm hopeful he will give her a more satisfaying background to her powers than the one Rian gave us, though I definately want her parents to remain nobodys. I like Rey a lot, it's just that her lack of training does bothers me a little bit.

 

Welcome, feel free to join in.

I've only been here a little over a year, and the most wondrous thing I've come to realize in that time is how everyone seems to experience SW in their own unique way. We're all interested to hear your thoughts on how you've perceived and interpreted these movies, just don't expect to change anyone's mind. State your opinion and rejoice when others share it, and pry out of curiosity when they don't. Personally I find it fascinating when someone has a completely different view on character, moment, interaction within the series. If we all thought the same, we wouldn't have much to talk about.

I believe the plan for the saga was loose, but I do believe they had one. Mostly specifics for where certain characters should be at the end of each movie, and directors got to choose how they got there, as long as it was approved.

As for Rey, her power was explained in more detail in novelization and is a subject of great debate on here. Not that it isn't true, but that how weak it is (or not). The idea is that in TFA when Rey repels Kylo's attempt to delve into her mind she somehow acquired Kylo's skills regarding the force and its use. It's often referred to on here as force download. I'm not a fan and if there's anything I would love to have retconned in IX is that. I'd actually find it more acceptable to have Snoke's vague comment stand on its own, that light was to meet dark. Even that's kind of weak, but it's better than the former imo.

Lastly, just a bit of advice lol... add in some imo, "I think", "I believe" in your posts unless you are posting from a position of fact. Even when you have data, understand much of the data surrounding the ST especially is nuanced and has contradictory data. Prepare accordingly, and understand that the goal is not to change people's mind, but to have friendly conversation. The mods are great here and will intervene if things get out of hand, but mostly they'll remind you of rules if you stray. Try not to take disagreements personally, as friendly as we are, we're pretty set in our ways lol. Have fun.

 

I know loads of people from friends, family, and co-workers who saw TLJ and none of them took these polls you cite, so this is another BS thing that you're pushing to make your argument. In fact none of them post online about the movies either, so there are LOADS of fans we don't even hear from regarding their opinion, but I can say it was pretty split among the people I know and wasn't a small minority. And you proved my point by dismissing the Rotten Tomatoes score cause it doesn't help your argument. I atleast admit that we really don't know what the % of fans loved or hated it, but you keep pushing your polls as I'm sure you would have said that the polls showed Hillary beating Trump too the night before the election!

 

I have always taken Rey's ability is because she is open to the possibility that the acts can be done. She sees in Kylo's mind acts that can be accomplished with the Force and all she needs is the ability to connect with the Force and concentrate enough to be able to do it. She is not a skeptic, this is what Luke was taught by Yoda. It wasnt about powering up it wasnt about "this crude matter" as Yoda put it. It is about being open to what you can do and applying enough concentration to do it. It is about mental discipline that Rey has that Luke did not have as much as it is about training.

We have people in our own world who do amazing things at amazingly young ages. I remember when I saw the story of Alma Deutscher and I was stunned. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ix-violin-concerto-9-second-opera-Vienna.html

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 25, 2019, Original Post Date: Feb 25, 2019 ---

I have always taken Rey's ability is because she is open to the possibility that the acts can be done. She sees in Kylo's mind acts that can be accomplished with the Force and all she needs is the ability to connect with the Force and concentrate enough to be able to do it. She is not a skeptic, this is what Luke was taught by Yoda. It wasnt about powering up it wasnt about "this crude matter" as Yoda put it. It is about being open to what you can do and applying enough concentration to do it. It is about mental discipline that Rey has that Luke did not have as much as it is about training.

We have people in our own world who do amazing things at amazingly young ages. I remember when I saw the story of Alma Deutscher and I was stunned. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ix-violin-concerto-9-second-opera-Vienna.html

 

I won't drag this any further off topic, but if you're genuinely interested in the science behind polling send me a PM. Among other things I'm a baseball/economics nerd so educating people about this stuff is fun. The data is quite clear in regards to TLJ.

 

Thank you for welcoming and for the advice!

I think you're absolutely right that time changes our perspective on the films . I, as most people, used to considered RotJ as the weakest of the OT, but the more I watch it the more I love it, and now I consider it as my favorite film in the entire saga. Same thing happened with Solo, I usually would rank it near the bottom, but as I was watching it yesterday on TV I realized it's so much better than I remember it to be, now I like it as much if not a bit more than Rogue One and rank it just below the OT and Revenge of the Sith. It's crazy.

I also agree that the explanation for Rey's powers is kind of weak, but I still hold optimism that JJ will give us a stronger explanation given that he was the one who created the character in the first place.

 

So you're a part of the Analytics crowd that is ruining Baseball? Endless pitching changes, the defensive shift, driving up pitching counts = 3+ hour games (sometimes 4 hours if you're a Red Sox/Yankees fan). I'm an old school baseball fan where pitchers used to go 7-8 innings and weren't yanked after 90 pitches, and the games were usually under 3 hours! I'll lay off you regarding TLJ, but my goal is to vanquish every Analytics person from the sport! Order 66! LOL!

 

The only expectation I had of The Last Jedi was for it to follow the narrative of all of the previous films/media. It did that, uncompromisingly. It's a work of art. Truly spectacular.

 

The wonderful thing about sports statistics, is that you have everything about that player/team. The only variables are injuries, or if players had inordinate amounts of luck, or if their conditioning is at peak level, ect.... When doing things on movies it's sample size, and often that doesn't take into effect, or just gets inaccurate readings on demographics. Even if they split their tests from cities to rural settings, blue vs red states ect... it's near impossible to factor in for numbers, where most fans go watch. Add that people tend to be inclined to talk up a movie directly after seeing it, face to face with someone smiling and seeming enthusiastic... it's much more likely to skew favorably for the movie.

I'm not saying you can't believe what you want, just saying talking in absolutes when the stats can suffer from inaccuracies built in with the methodology is irksome. Lean toward your opinion sure, but leave room for error. Stats are proven wrong all the time, and in sports when they have everything possible at their finger tips is far different than gauging movies where stats are based on small, miniscule even, sample sizes.

 

there were some that loved it, some that thought it was ok, some that thought it was a bit meh and some that think it was terrible.

when a thread turns into a disagreement about statistics.. it's like someone throwing dog poop on it, and no sod wants to touch it anymore.

we don't know the true numbers, we will never know the true numbers.. and 74.1% of us (yes i made that up ) will live happy star wars filled lives without ever knowing the numbers.

 

Sports analytics are super complicated for all the reasons you mentioned. It's way more complicated than a simple survey of whether or not someone liked a film. An audience sample is easy and I'm sure all of Disney's studios have people crunching these kind of numbers. The only people that question controlled audience scores are people who disagree with the results.

Lucasfilm did a very good job of keeping TLJ a secret. I really didn't expect much other than Luke wanted the Jedi to end, Rey was going to be with Luke, and that was about it. I really don't have any expectations for Episode IX and I think I prefer it this way. Opinions about what was going to happen in TLJ were far stronger than what's happening now. Frankly, I can live without talking about character's DNA for two years.

 

Since audience scores continue to be brought up here is a little news that is pertinent to the discussion.

https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/making-some-changes/

 

Until RT limits the ability to create multiple accounts to vote their score is always gonna be brigaded. IMDb has the same issue, but it's much more time consuming to create multiple accounts so their numbers are less polarizing. The more difficult it is to manipulate the results the better the data (TLJ data shows this as well).