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Why is TLJ your favourite/least favourite SW movie?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by Jedi Master Wysk, Apr 26, 2020.

?

Opinions on TLJ

  1. Favourite SW movie

    7 vote(s)
    14.9%
  2. Least favourite SW movie

    11 vote(s)
    23.4%
  3. Somewhere in the middle

    29 vote(s)
    61.7%
  1. Flyboy

    Flyboy Force Attuned

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    I'll be honest, lately I've been questioning if TLJ really is my favorite Star Wars film and that has nothing to do with the film itself, I just haven't seen it in forever. I haven't consumed any ST content since the Summer but in that time I've consumed SO much OT and PT content. Last night I bought the Skywalker Saga Blu-Ray collection and I've spent today going through the films, testing out the quality and stuff like that. Not watching the films in full, just a scene or two. I popped in TLJ and forwarded to a random scene, landing on the one with Rey on the rock with Luke, her first official lesson.

    It all came flooding back and reaffirmed that yes, TLJ is my favorite Star Wars film.

    As I've said before, I don't think it's a perfect film, I think it has flaws, quite a few. If I ranked the Star Wars films simply by the number of things I didn't like, TLJ would be towards the middle of the pack, but that's not what I do. I judge and critique based on how much the flaws impacted my enjoyment vs. how much the things I loved enhanced my enjoyment, and in the case of TLJ, the flaws had almost no impact.
     
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  2. Grand Admiral Kraum

    Grand Admiral Kraum Force Sensitive

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    No, I fully understood what Rian was going for. That doesn't mean I have to like that choice for the ending, and the end of Luke's arc in the physical realm.

    Non-violent approach is good.. but why was it necessary to kill Luke? Why not have him collapse, leave it on a cliffhanger then have him regain conciousness in the sequel ala Jack Sparrow getting swallowed by the Kracken in Pirates of the Carribbean?

    Why did the original trio have to be killed off in each movie, like a conveyor belt of unused toys being thrown away? The deaths of these characters were forced in my opinion, much more so than having Luke be the badass 99% of fans wanted and expected him to be.
     
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  3. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel Official

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    To be honest, we were lucky even to get back the original trio to start with. And if we want to be even more frank about the situation, there is a good chance that Harrison Ford wouldn't have come back for Return of the Jedi if it weren't for Howard Kanzajian, Lucas's producer for that film. There WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A TRIO.

    It's the story, not only the characters. It's what these characters are and the choices that they make, growing and changing.

    like a conveyor belt of unused toys being thrown away?

    No offense, but that comparison is rather unsettling. Are Han Solo, Leia, and Luke toys? Is that what they are and their legacy? Objects to be put in a sandbox? Or, is there something deeper to them?

    You may misunderstand (I have no idea), but you underestimate the idea of Star Wars: Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers- Saturday-Mantinee-style action-adventure, mixed with philosophy, scenes from Lucas's life, (also an attempt to make Star Wars more positive, since THX 1138 was more poorly received or had loss profit from its darker and mature tone), references to old films, Kirosawa, and pop-culture sci-fi from around the 1950s-60s. This is reduced to a bunch of toys? The lives of these characters are more important than these ideas being conveyed?

    The deaths of these characters were forced in my opinion

    So is Leia becoming Luke's sister, yet no one bats an eye at it anymore. Forcing the plot is old stuff when it comes to Star Wars's legacy- it's been done at least since Return of the Jedi, and probably earlier to a lesser degree (i.e. the promised freedom to the galaxy in the original opening crawl in Star Wars was changed or subverted with the idea of the Empire sending out dreadnaughts and the rest of the galaxy being fairly compliant for three whole years in The Empire Strikes Back).

    Now granted, did Disney have a chance to organically try to deal with the plot? Yes. Did they fail? Sort of, sort of not. There was a consideration towards trying to make it fit in, so I don't think that it was as ill-fitting as a lot of people make it seem to be. Especially in respect to Return of the Jedi in comparison to TESB, which is nearly like night and day for Luke's character, and for some of the others as well.

    than having Luke be the badass 99% of fans wanted and expected him to be.

    I am happy that I am that 1%. Or, maybe it's the fact that men/young boys find Luke to be relatable in regards to their manhood for some reason (which I am currently attempting to receive information for and find out). I am no such man, so I am immune to this concept, anyways.

    Anyway, I still think that Luke is his most mature and complex in Empire; he only has a few (really 3 beats) that resonate with me in Return of the Jedi.

    Also, the idea that Luke is cool is still so nuts- I honestly don't know what fans really want out of Luke. Do they want a honest yet flawed hero who does the right thing, or one that's showy and hero by what he does?

    A great Jedi is not defined by who they are, but what they can do.- Confused Matthew

    Luke being cool moments:
    Star Wars:
    Luke using his brain to convince Han Solo to help him free the princess (this is also done out of Luke sincerely wanting to do the right thing- Luke: "But they're gonna kill her!").
    Luke bragging before Biggs?/Wedge? at the Death Star plan conference with the rebels/rebel pilots (a sign of cockiness, not so much being cool as it is bragging).
    Luke trusting in the Force to blow up the Death Star, which is shown more as a faith moment or the idea of trusting in something bigger than ones' self.
    The Empire Strikes Back:
    Luke's improv plan- using the tow cables to bring down the AT-AT walkers (this is more a practical sign of intelligence.
    Luke walking over Dack's dead body to finish off an AT-AT walker or evade one (more for practicality and style).
    Luke turning around and saying "Seems like- WE'RE BEING WATCHED" (in a Flash Gordon-esque manner, very sci-fi and stylish).
    Luke's flips and skill at pulling his lightsaber towards him with the Force, and general lightsaber combat
    Luke making the jump to defy Vader (more a sign of humility towards doing the right thing- to avoid submitting to evil).
    Return of the Jedi:
    This is where Luke starts bragging a whole lot more, without being put into his place or being sincere or humble about it. In my opinion, this is a poor sign of being a good hero.

    Luke brags before Jabba, who has Han Solo held captive, about his powers. (Not a good sign, and hardly humble and or taking Jabba as a credible threat when he has already captured Leia- even though it was part of the plan). Luke does brag before Vader, but the outcome is mixed, with Luke momentarily loosing his lightsaber and then
     
    #43 The Birdwatcher, Jan 14, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
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  4. RoyleRancor

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    Considering the reactions to Luke in The Mandalorian and Vader in Rogue One, this is exactly what some people want. Action figures but real sized.
     
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  5. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel Official

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    Sorry, I was timed out for my edit, but here's my complete list of Luke's heroics in the OT.

    Luke being cool moments:
    Star Wars:
    Luke using his brain to convince Han Solo to help him free the princess (this is also done out of Luke sincerely wanting to do the right thing- Luke: "But they're gonna kill her!").
    Luke bragging before Biggs?/Wedge? at the Death Star plan conference with the rebels/rebel pilots (a sign of cockiness, not so much being cool as it is bragging).
    Luke trusting in the Force to blow up the Death Star, which is shown more as a faith moment or the idea of trusting in something bigger than ones' self.
    The Empire Strikes Back:
    Luke's improv plan- using the tow cables to bring down the AT-AT walkers (this is more a practical sign of intelligence.
    Luke walking over Dack's dead body to finish off an AT-AT walker or evade one (more for practicality and style).
    Luke turning around and saying "Seems like- WE'RE BEING WATCHED" (in a Flash Gordon-esque manner, very sci-fi and stylish).
    Luke's flips and skill at pulling his lightsaber towards him with the Force, and general lightsaber combat
    Luke making the jump to defy Vader (more a sign of humility towards doing the right thing- to avoid submitting to evil).
    Return of the Jedi:
    This is where Luke starts bragging a whole lot more, without being put into his place or being sincere or humble about it. In my opinion, this is a poor sign of being a good hero.

    Luke wearing his outfit- a hood with black clothes and the green lightsaber, which people think is cool. This is all superficial, besides the symbolism attached to it. It's pretty to look at, but there's not much more to it than that. Especially the different color for the lightsaber- a different color does not make it cool even if it's supposed to reference Yoda's training in a way or Luke being his own man or becoming a man in this film by creating something new. The color on its own is just a color- if being a new color means reaching maturity then okay. But it seems like the smallest thing, like painting a house a different color. The hilt is another story, since that is Luke actually being creative.

    Luke choking the guards, which a lot of people think is cool (it's more of a practical move and puts to question if Luke was able to smuggle both Leia and Lando in already, if violence was actually necessary here, but fair).

    Luke brags before Jabba, who has Han Solo held captive, about his powers. (Not a good sign, and hardly humble and or taking Jabba as a credible threat when he has already captured Leia- even though it was part of the plan). Luke does brag before Vader in TESB, but the outcome is mixed, with Luke momentarily loosing his lightsaber and then using his skill in the Force to retrieve it quickly later on. Also, he does not brag before Vader again, but remains defiant of him.

    Luke bragging that Jabba made a big mistake. (Bragging, but people see it as being cool.).
    Luke telling Han that he has everything under control (for subversion, fun purposes later on. Luke is once again, bragging. What is even weirder here is ignoring Han's concerns or being dismissal of Han, especially from an empathetic standpoint.).
    Luke telling Jabba to free them or die (Arrogant and assumptive.).
    Luke making a flip on Jabba's diving board.
    Luke making slashes with his lightsaber (probably ineffectively- the work here isn't meticulous like The Empire Strikes Back duel).
    Luke asserting or imparting his wisdom to Han on Endor (This is an awkward moment, as Luke has to warn Han what to do when Han knows what to do and is the street-smart and older one in prior films. Remember: Luke is a kid compared to him. But here, Luke seems more like the adult, even though only a year has passed between here and TESB. I know that Luke can warn others of danger and has a bit of tactician streak, but it's a bit chiding of him to warn Han in this manner.).
    Nearly anything that Luke is conveying to Vader on the bridge scene (He is arrogant here as can be, but many see it as being heroic and wanting to save Vader. It is pushy.).
    Luke rolling his eyes at the Emperor. (Luke not taking the Emperor seriously and being arrogant as well).
    Luke stating that he won't turn to the dark side (by saying this and not shutting up about it; Luke is not being very humble about it.).
    Luke stating that they will all die. (Again, lack of humility and presumption.).
    Luke stating the Emperor's weakness. (Again, lack of humility and presumption about what the Emperor's weakness really is).
    Luke's belief in Vader. (It is presumptuous.).
    Luke stating his heroic claim to the Emperor (Not humble- instead of being quiet about it in Empire.).
    Vader stating that Luke's already saved him, making him the hero by default. (The reality is that it is not true- Vader chose to save Luke; Luke merely influenced him to make his decision.).
    Etc.

    Considering the reactions to Luke in The Mandalorian and Vader in Rogue One, this is exactly what some people want. Action figures but real sized.

    :(. That's frankly disappointing, considering Star Wars' legacy. The work of the ILM crew reduced to action figures?- the franchise's commercialization? An actual plot? A tribute to sci-fi and science fantasy? Matte paintings?
     
    #45 The Birdwatcher, Jan 14, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2021
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  6. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    I mean people obviously had a different read on Star Wars and saw it as a power fantasy.
    it what it is.

    People will always get different things out of a text.
     
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  7. Matt_T

    Matt_T Rebel General

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    It is my favorite only in the sense that it's probably the reason Iger brought Favreau in.
     
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  8. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    Simply put i despise TLJ because for me it undermined the entire saga and butchered much of the established lore, it just feels hollow to me and I get the impression that it was written by a person who wanted to be edgy and took on ideas that he wasn't competent enough to execute well at all, and who hadn't done his homework on Star Wars.
     
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  9. Iotatheta

    Iotatheta Rebelscum

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    wasn’t Favreau being brought in prior to or around its release, and went through Kennedy to get in?
     
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  10. Embo and His Pet Anooba

    Embo and His Pet Anooba Force Attuned

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    Eh, don't really like it. The humor at the beginning sets me off, even though its just like two lines that set me off. The conflict between Poe and Holdo seems really weird, like a sitcom, where they just could have solved it by talking to each other. I had problems with the Holdo Manuever but now don't, also don't like the sidequest to the casino to find the one guy who could hack, and then another guy happens to be able to hack and is just waiting with an escape route. I feel like Finn gets love interests that try to improve his flaws, but then at the end of the movie, he is all good, so in the next movie they throw in a new love interest and he gets the same flaws. Finally, I don't like the planets. D'qar looks exactly like Yavin 4, I can't tell them apart, Jakku is Tatooine, and Takodana isn't even portrayed as a planet, its just a castle.


    Now to things I do like.
    I love how Luke was treated, while his conflict is mostly the same as EU Luke, they just handle it differently. EU Luke powers through with some trouble and then has to deal with the problems of raising a son who gets more ambitious and doesn't want to be known as just the son of Luke, while Canon Luke explores what happens when Luke can't beat those challenges, both are good. I also like how Rey and Kylo are just goons with little lightsaber training, but great force powers, battling against each other. I loved Hux in TFA, but then in the last two movies he got too goofy and annoying for me, so I was happy when they killed him off.
    Oh and CRAIT I LOVE CRAIT MORE CRAIT
     
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  11. The Birdwatcher

    The Birdwatcher Rebel Official

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    because for me it undermined the entire saga and butchered much of the established lore, it just feels hollow to me

    It undermined Return of the Jedi. It honestly DID NOT undermine A New Hope or The Empire Strikes Back. If you want to call that lore butchering, then there is plenty more in Return of the Jedi (a bit in Empire as well, though it's well done) that butchers both A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, especially in respect to the Luke's character, and the aforementioned list of heroic moments that I just posted that are actually more arrogant and undo Luke's humiliation upon his defeat with Vader in TESB. There is plenty of lore-destroying moments in ROTJ, yet no one bats an eye at it anymore because it is so far wedged in the past and incorporated into current Star Wars lore, despite it destroying a lot of lore and character in the first place.

    The thing is TLJ is often, though not all the time, anti-ROTJ, and Rian himself seems confused by ROTJ's antics, such as, having a clarification from a fan on twitter (the fan got the meaning of the scene wrong enough, though, production of the scene is still more nuanced that that), and is puzzled with Luke's dialogue to Rey when Rey makes her defense of Vader's redemption from Luke. This is because, for the most part, the script does not actually hold up well under logical or consistent means, despite being actually very meticulously crafted (due to Lucas and Kasdan frequently rotating scripts).

    it just feels hollow to me

    It's still less hollow than ROTJ in areas, such as when it gets a free pass from 30 seconds consummate music in the throne room scene. Fans will not focus on much of anything else, though the left-to-right panning shot is impressive, and there is some (unnecessary) echoing back to when Vader pinned down Luke on the bridge in Empire, plus Luke's anger and aggression. But the scene itself is very brief (there is still some quality there), and it doesn't make much sense considering Luke's rushed character development and skill in this film in comparison to Empire. The plot believes Luke to be this near-complete Jedi character, when in actuality, his arrogant and (overtly) reckless demeanor belies that on many different occasions.

    The bridge scene is very awkward in Return as well, yet fans will praise it. Watch Hamill's stoic expressions, reliance on head nodding at the end- he barely emotes compared to Vader. I know Obi-Wan told him to bury his feelings, but he is taking it too far when he can't properly empathize with Vader to convince him to turn from the dark side, besides reminding Vader of who he was. And that is not a great reason, because it does not address Vader's reasons for wanting power in the first place- he was seduced and wanted that power and also wanted control over the rebels. The closest that they get in their discussion is Luke stating to Vader to let go of his hate, which might be his hatred of rebels, since he wants to control the conflict stemming from them. But even then, the reason is vague.

    I get the impression that it was written by a person who wanted to be edgy and took on ideas that he wasn't competent enough to execute well at all

    Edgy is "The Empire Strikes Back"- The Last Jedi takes more thematically than one would normally expect by closely imitating Empire.

    Do I really need to give a list here? Ugnnn. :eek::confused:

    he wasn't competent enough to execute well at all

    Aside from spewing out exposition more (and displaying about characters felt- i.e. Rey- the sentimentality it seems, from ROTJ and a bit from TESB)- this was not a prime idea in ANH or TESB- the emphasis on Empire's opening crawl was to diminish exposition was much as possible within the script so that the film would move faster, I though it was well executed. They explained a lot. Some think too much.
     
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  12. MandoChip

    MandoChip Hate me later. Work now.
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    No, you don't.
     
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    A lot of people understand that the Star Wars saga (and particularly Luke/Vader's arcs in the original trilogy) are about hope, redemption, love and facing adversity with confidence.

    At my screening for The Last Jedi, kids came out looking depressed..asking why Luke didn't like the Jedi anymore.

    Luke was made to look jaded and suicidal, with dark side tendencies still influencing him momentarily during his prime as a Jedi Master.
    He was made into a failure, a snarky coward who left Leia and the rest of the resistance to fend for themselves.. while he sat in a hut and wallowed in sadness. His Zoom call and sacrifice at the end don't change this fact.

    They even showed Luke drinking milk like a child, grimacing stupidly to Rey.. to symbolise how far back he'd regressed. They made him look as pathetic as possible early on, to make Rey look like a superior character to new audiences. They did this instead of actually writing Rey properly and giving her depth.
     
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    I may be in a minority, but it is one of my favorite SW movies ever.

    When I went from the cinema, it was just ''Wow!''. The movie did so much, that I had no idea and was looking forward what will Episode IX bring, as this movie started where Episode VII left and tied up all the knots...

    And here is why - it builds on TFA and brings some of the most interesting visual and new things in the trilogy design-wise and not just facelifted old stuff, which Episode IX fails at greatly (Really hate the Star Destroyer design with a cannon mounted on the belly and I can go forever about bad and lazy design in IX).

    Storywise, it really surprised me... OK, scene with the bombers doesn't make much sense to me, they basically wasted lot of ships as they sent them to certain death. But:
    - Luke is not the Jedi god with playboy foldout wife from 90's, but failed hero who is not at the end of his journey yet and disconnecting from force and drinking green milk is not the answer - epic finale against the First Order. Loved it. I really love to get surprised and sure, action 90s EU Luke would be cool, but we've seen it.
    - Rey is nobody and force can manifest in anybody... Loved this idea until TROS crapped on that. Rey's training and her naivity clashing with Luke's bitter life experience was interesting.
    - Supremacy - we finally see Snoke's mobile fortress and First Order military factory in one. Interesting concept and not just another Death Star.
    - Dreadnaught, new walking tanks, everything new I liked and Poe's action against dreadnaught before the bombers came was awesome. TIE Silencer and Kylo piloting it.
    - Snoke - I loved his portrayal and design and it was one of the best CGI character I have seen. Kylo slaying him surprised me a lot the first time!
    - Canto Bight is not bad at all. Loved the change of scenery away from the small scale space chase the Resistance is in. Interesting designs and characters - also was intergral to the growth of the characters. We also got a bit lore info, which brought the SW again more into the politics - it's not just bad and evil fighting each other, but also a politicians and greedy people, who feed the war with technology on both sides and then profit from that together in a lavish lifestyle in casinos and enjoy their lives without caring about the others... also, Finn stops being self-centered and deals with Phasma as well in the process.

    I could go on about this movie forever, as I love it, but here I will stop... What I liked about The RIse of Skywalker was just nostalgia for reading Dark Empire as a kid and few story bits, but overall, it really does not connect well to the Last Jedi and is hastily made movie with bad designs and somehow, the small scale of the movie, doesn't really work for me as an end of 9 episode saga... And even tough the story group tries hard, lot of things doesn't make sense.
    If Palpatine created Snoke, at least ''...to prepare you as my apprentice.'' would be nice explanation and not just ''I made Snoke'' because I was bored to death literally these 30 years, so I was just making snokes. Star Destroyers with ANH desing, were shown in the movie as a magic but rather reminded me of Space Battleship Yamato (which made sense in the series, as the ship was a wreck in the dried out sea bed, covertly rebuilt hidden in plain sight of the enemy attackers), but I am to believe, that there are shipyards. And as with TLJ, I could go on...

    I respect creators and movie makers, I can't do their job better, as Sam WItwer said in one interview and he is 100% right, but with Episode IX
    I really think, OK, so they made a movie in haste to fill the release date quota and with all the 8 episodes before, rich in stories and designs, waiting for you to make a love letter and end the saga in epic way, you go with adaptation of 90s comic book, do not explain nothing, recyle design and say it's an homage and at the end, you are satisfied with it and say to yourselves, that people will love it. Come on!

    Sorry for my rant on Episode IX in the end, but I do like Episodes 7 and 8, but can't wrap my head around 9 logically, as I can see and understand, why people might not like The Last Jedi, or how many of them didn't like Rey since her introduction, or Jar Jar who is more of a kid's character - different people like different things - but in a same way as Anakin's romantic adventure in Episode II is just bad no matter of what taste you have, as that is just bad dialogue and the weirdest romance I ever saw, most of the Episode IX has weird stuff like that all over and it's weird, I saw the bonus disc with the 2 hour documentary and it seemed like they really cared about stuff in preproduction and really thought about the ideas... I don't know.
     
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  15. The Birdwatcher

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    A lot of people understand that the Star Wars saga (and particularly Luke/Vader's arcs in the original trilogy) are about hope, redemption, love and facing adversity with confidence.

    Redemption is only present in ROTJ. I would even argue that love towards Vader is mostly present in Return of the Jedi. Specifics. And Luke did not face adveristy with much confidence when he was defending the rebels' chances at success before The Emperor- he defends them once, twice, and then later on he has "feelings for his friends that are strong", as Vader says. But at one point, he believes that they will die, which is why he retaliates and tries to slice the Emperor. He doubts. Also, when later sacrificing himself to the Emperor, he begs for his life, which contradicts the facts that he tossed his lightsaber and stood there breathing with his claim. As soon as Luke feels the pain, he starts begging.

    As for hope, again, not very present in Jedi, which hammers down the idea that Luke will turn to the dark side. Luke doesn't stay on the light side out of hope; he does it to prevent himself from going to the dark side.

    At my screening for The Last Jedi, kids came out looking depressed..asking why Luke didn't like the Jedi anymore.

    Well....

    Luke: Obi-Wan, Why didn't you tell me? (Looks up in horror)

    Let me honest here, Luke ONLY liked the Jedi in the original Star Wars and a bit in The Empire Strikes Back, before it was revealed that they were lying to him. In ROTJ, Luke's reactions were questioning but pretty complacent- it never matched up to his reactions of horror or dialogue at the end of TESB, imo. Even though the 2nd or 3rd drafts have probably the best explanation of Obi-Wan's dialogue and reasoning for lying, it is still a bit of a short-cut, probably. Should have made the final film, anyways.

    Luke was made to look jaded and suicidal, with dark side tendencies still influencing him momentarily during his prime as a Jedi Master.

    Being jaded stems from the TESB Yoda parallel and the unresolved tension from the end of The Empire Strikes Back about lying/withholding information from him.

    He was made into a failure, a snarky coward who left Leia and the rest of the resistance to fend for themselves..

    That honestly sounds more like ROTJ Luke, although he had hypocrisy as well. List time!:

    1. Luke leaves the Rebels on Endor because he originally though that staying there would endanger the rebels and the personal reason of saving Vader from the dark side (even though Vader was going to die and get blown up with Luke if they both went to Death Star II, assuming the rebels got through with their plan- actually, it would have been safer for Vader to have stayed on Endor.). It later turns out that though Vader's direct attention is distracted from the rebels, he still permits an Imperial commander to take their troops down to search and find the rebels, making Luke's attempt to turn himself in partially fruitless, as the rebels are now without a Force user to assist them (Leia can't use the Force as of right now.).
    2. Luke says before the Emperor that he will die, as well as the Emperor himself, meaning that unless Luke is lying before the Emperor, then he fully expects to die without heading back and saving the rebels. Ironically, this is contradicted later when Luke begs for life while being shocked and when he tries to save both his life and Vader's by dragging Vader off of the Imperial ship.

    I know in TESB, Luke makes the jump (to presumably commit suicide), but there it's done to prevent Luke from getting captured by Vader and more forced into a position where he'd be forced to turn to the dark side. Granted, Luke also might be making the jump because he's so dismayed that Vader's his father, but both reasons are viable, I think, anyways.
    3. Luke not having faith/short-lived faith towards the rebels (He first defends them against the Emperor when the Emperor says that they will die, but appears to give up in his belief of them winning, even though his feelings are still strong for them.)
    4. Luke disarming himself, in a possible attempt to have the Emperor kill him to show he's on the light side (He breathes tensely, meaning he wants the Emperor to kill him.). An unfortunate side-effect is that Luke gives up on the Rebellion by purposefully wanting to die.
    5. Luke asking for help after his disarms himself and has the Emperor kill him.

    I thought that Rian said that the point of Luke giving up on the island was also not to escalate the problem of Jedi inevitably being responsible for the rise of dark side users through their corrupt teachings ("Once you head down that dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." Yoda and Obi-Wan wanting/encouraging Luke to kill his own father as a way of becoming a Jedi.

    while he sat in a hut and wallowed in sadness. His Zoom call and sacrifice at the end don't change this fact.

    They even showed Luke drinking milk like a child, grimacing stupidly to Rey.. to symbolise how far back he'd regressed.

    Or, to make a blue milk reference, and to show how much Luke just wants Rey to leave- to outright disgust her. I also thought that the Thala-Sirens were honestly a reference to those camels in The Phantom Menance and the farting joke. Luke doesn't grimace- the action is more- "Oh, yeah! I'm getting through

    Another thing at play here is if that is actually symbolism- and whether it is actually applicable to The Last Jedi. In Return of the Jedi, Luke constructing a green lightsaber is symbolic of a rite of passage, of Luke reaching maturity and manhood. The thing is mostly- WE DON'T see that within the film. Luke is inconsistent and contradicts himself at key points; he acts like a child asking Yoda if Vader is really his father. The symbolism doesn't cut it, even if his whininess is reduced to about a third or a fourth of its usual rate from ANH and TESB. The trade-off isn't worth it if Lucas decided that Luke should be inconsistent and contradictory to make for drama towards "Luke turning to the dark side".

    They made him look as pathetic as possible early on, to make Rey look like a superior character to new audiences.

    Maybe. I think that there are far worse moments in Luke's characterization. Let's say that the worst-case scenario actually played out- let's say that Disney actually went full-on feminist and wanted to disregard these characters (though the plot and themes are arguably the most important parts of the old Star Wars, not so much the characters themselves, and whether they lived or not or became a shallow version of themselves.). So anyway, let's say that Disney decided to actually make Luke to be this-this cowardly, pathetic, feminine, sad excuse of a man, who goes around being a man-child. You know what I think? They didn't try hard enough- that's what I think.

    ROTJ Luke is that cowardly, pathetic, feminine, sad excuse of a man, who goes around being a man-child, but it's covered up with things like his black clothes, green lightsaber, and repetitive comments about saving Vader (which also come across as childish and naive, but the repetition forces the audience to accept it as part of the plot points). Flippy-flips. Other characters saying that his skills (and maturity) are complete, despite evidence to the contrary by Luke's acts. Luke's lack of whininess belies other problems in the writing, such as, his arrogance and disregard for others' safety and feelings, Luke wanting to appease his personal needs over the Rebellion (Luke puts his chips on Leia, who doesn't really know how to use the Force yet.), and a focus on saving Vader. Yet, as far as I know, this is fans see in respect to ROTJ Luke. That, and it has something to do with the EU, which I do understand (I skimmed through I, Jedi as a kid.), but is NOT really accurate to Luke's character before Return.

    Lucas destroyed Luke LONG before Disney ever could. What's ironic is that in their attempt to honor the OT (and appease the fans who disliked the PT), utilizing stuff from ROTJ has hurt the film.

    Also, anything that Rey does, doesn't erase what ANH or TESB did, if she's a poor character. You want to scapegoat your fury onto Rey, okay. She's mostly a contemplative TESB Luke in this film, minus some snark, and more Padme at parts from PT parallels.

    They did this instead of actually writing Rey properly and giving her depth.

    Rey's TESB Luke, minus some stuff. Were you expecting Cloud Strife? Something insanely mind-blowing? She fits the bill of protagonist well enough. In the deleted scene of the fish village, she says that she wants to do something, because her friends are going to suffer if she doesn't; that's nearly exactly the same sentiment in TESB with Luke's character. Also, she handles things more practically than ROTJ Luke- she says that if Kylo turns, then that may be how the Resistance wins the war. Unlike in ROTJ, killing or overthrowing the Emperor is not the point- Luke is fully willing to die in throne room at the beginning. Luke just wants to save Vader- that's it. One may argue that this is more honorable of Luke to do that- to save his father without political motivation, but the reason is strictly personal and even comes across as selfish and naive, as Luke still risks stuff for the Rebellion by doing so. Also, Rey isn't sure if she will live or not, but she isn't stupid enough to say something along the lines of "both of us will die here because of unknown reasons" and then roll her eyes at Snoke when she arrives at his throne room, making her look both childish and stupid at the same time (not cool, as some fans have claimed- I don't believe that). She says what ROTJ Luke says but better- that Snoke underestimates Kylo and her, which is exactly what happens; in Return, Luke (Hamill in a very weird and arrogant manner?) says that "your overconfidence is your weakness", which comes across as chiding and like Luke knows more than the Emperor does. And yes, the Emperor's overconfidence was a weakness as well, but the Emperor did not play it safe- he dismisses the guards, lets Vader come close to him, despite questioning his feelings on the matter [loyalty] earlier in the film, and squirms in the air without doing much. Snoke PLAYS IT SAFE- he has guards stationed with him, he's insanely powerful enough to drag Rey in mid-air, and you do believe that it's a difficult situation for Rey and Kylo to get themselves out of- not just a game of hide-and-seek and forced lightsaber duel, with Palpatine acting as referee in the background or a sudden surprise (though Luke's been warned) of the Emperor having an OP lightning power that completely disables Luke and reduces him to squirming and screaming on the ground.
     
    #55 The Birdwatcher, Jan 18, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
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  16. RoyleRancor

    RoyleRancor Car'a'Carn

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    1. Hope, redemption, love, adversity are not constant states. You can lose hope. Fall out of love. Do wrong. Struggle with adversity. No matter how well you handled it before. Handling it once doesn't mean you're cured of things from that point forward. Obvious a lesson many still need to learn. Luke got to be the big damn hero for 30 years but none of the problems were really his fault. He didn't create Vader. He didn't cause the Empire to rise. He just got to swoop in to fix it all. But what happens when it IS his fault, he handles it differently because it's a different situation. He did what Yoda and Obi-Wan did.

    2. I'm sure they did. But if anecdotes are admissible evidence, I took my younger cousins to see it and they loved it. So....It's almost like this is a meaningless claim. (And it's because the Jedi suck and have always sucked. If you have a problem with this, take it up with George Lucas who made the Jedi suck)

    3. Luke always had dark side tendencies. Why do people act like this is something TLJ added? He was always an overly emotional, quick to react type. This is who he is. Yes it does. You're just being argumentative about refusing to accept an act of non-violence as the big hero moment. Hence, power fantasy reading. Luke should be perfect and kick everyone's ass and no one should come close to him. That's what you want and that's fine but don't pretend for a minute that it makes other versions bad because you wanted something else.

    4. No, he isn't behaving like a child. He's trying to get Rey to bugger off. He's being intentionally overly grotesque to bother Rey. At no point is Luke portrayed as "pathetic". So just to be clear, you try to argue against it being a power fantasy reading by taking umbrage with it not being a power fantasy Luke in TLJ.
     
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  17. Darth KreVass

    Darth KreVass Clone Trooper

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    After watching all three sequel movies multiple times in Theaters, as well at home, I have come to realize I like TLJ the most. When TFA came out, I loved it! But after watching it over time, I liked less and less. Same with TROS. Don't hate those two movies, but TLJ just seems to sit right for me. However, IMHP, this sequel has no plan. There was no "show runner" like the first 6, and The Mandalorian.
     
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  18. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Everything I have to say about my views on TLJ I put on my website as an article.

    Capture.PNG

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  19. Dynamixx88

    Dynamixx88 Rebel General

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    PS: Forgot to add Finn's character finale when he choose to not run, but fight for others even if it meant sacriicing himself in the process.

    This movie was wow after wow moments first time in cinema and it upped the game so much. It was an emotional ride compared to the shallow fun that is Rise Of The Skywalker.

    It is funny to me in the end, that people after their 30s shouting that Lucas ruined their childhood, with movies for kids/teens basically and when we finally got a more serious movie, it is most hated.
     
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  20. Jayson

    Jayson Resident Lucasian

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    Ah, who cares?
    If the negatives had it their way we'd never have another Star Wars after ESB.

    What's the most hated Star Wars film?
    What just came out? That one.

    It's been "The worst ever" refraining in my ears for ages.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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