SPECULATION State of the Empire

I can imagine a kind of cold (star) war scenario in the ST. Weary of warfare a truce is established between the new republic and what remains of the empire.
A new Sith threat takes over the empire and through propaganda and the possible advantage of a new weapon of mass destruction the old empire becomes a serious threat again, turning the cold war into a flaming hot one.

Maybe the old republic has outlawed the force and Luke is still the last trained jedi in existence. He went into exile because he fears he can't control his powers and will not risk the dark side taking over one of his new pupils or even himself. In a propaganda scenario where the empire is seeking to re-awaken the force this could lead to the idea that the new republic is just as 'evil' as the old empire was in their handling of force users.

 

I agree. Star Wars has always depicted a "used future".

 

The Empire is dead. Long live the Alliance (two last lines from the 1983 novelisation of Return of the Jedi. - and the book´canon, right?)

 

Actually not sure about that - are the novelizations canon at this point? Hmmm....

 

Someone from Lucasfilm said (can´t remember his name), that the novelizations are canon, with exception of obvious "out of place" things like "ducks" in A new hope novelization.

 

That would be Leland Chee, keeper of the holocron.

 

Hi everyone,

First time posting here at The Cantina. Just thought I'd contribute my two cents (12 cents if you count for inflation) regarding TFA.

My view is that the Empire is still alive and kicking (Rebel butts) after ROTJ. Yes, the Emperor was overthrown (down a shaft), the Death Star was blown up (again), the Rebels managed to destroy the Super Star Destroyer. But despite all that and the galaxy-wide celebrations, the Empire was 'galaxy-wide' and had vast military power and capabilities. Thus, after the Battle of Endor some Imperial general/admiral could have taken control, quelled those celebrations/uprisings and restored Imperial order. So no chance for a 'New Republic'. Which is probably one of the reasons the EU is no longer considered canon (or turret, or blasters).

So, who ever has taken control of the Empire could have restructured and redesigned it which is where the new-look stormtroopers come in. Of course, the problem with this idea is believing that the rebels have been on the run for the past 30 years. But then anything's possible.

As for the Sith, I would think that during Palpatine's reign there should be plenty of Sith around (masters and apprentices). So even if Palpatine kicked the bucket, the Sith would still be around and hunting for Luke. Adam Driver's character could be a Sith apprentice tasked with hunting down and killing Luke.

Well, that's all i got so far. What do you guys think? Let's share our thoughts.

 

I think the new look of the Stormtroopers is simply from a natural evolution of technology. For example, the PASGT helmet of the U.S. military first saw use in combat in 1983 during Operation Urgent Fury in Grenada, and became standard issue for the U.S. military in 1985, and completely replaced the M1 helmet for frontline troops by the end of the decade.

I think that the Rebels gained some star systems after the events of Return Of The Jedi, so I don't think they've "been on the run". The Soviet Union broke apart at the end of the Cold War, so using that analogy, Russia = the Galactic Empire, and the ex-Soviet states = the Rebels.

Assuming Darth Sidious followed the "Rule Of Two", there were no surviving "official" Sith after the events of Return Of The Jedi.

 

You have a point there on the new-look stormtroopers. They were different in AOTC/ROTS compared to the OT.

It is possible that the Rebels managed to gain some star systems. There could have been an uneasy truce for 30 years and in TFA someone in the Empire decides to reestablish it to its former glory.

As for the Rule of Two, that's assuming that J.J & co. decides to go down that path. The death of Palpatine and Vader left a void in the Sith-world so it's anybody's guess how it developed from there. That's probably how it ties with Serkis' line about "there's been an awakening". The Sith could have become dormant after ROTJ and 30 years later a new Sith Lord appears.

 

Just going through the posts in this awesome thread. Boba Fortuna made an interesting observation about the Millennium Falcon and Tie Fighters scene in the teaser trailer. The Ties do seem to be shooting at something 'behind' the Falcon and not 'at' the Falcon. They also keep firing even after they pass the Falcon. IF this interpretation is true, there are two possibilities IMO: 1) lending support to the idea that the (former)Rebel Alliance and (former)Empire are facing a common threat, or 2) Rey & Finn are piloting the Ties & helping whoever is flying the Falcon.

 

I too never bought the whole "Empire was destroyed at the end of ROTJ" thing either.

I'll keep my comment simple, but bring up the Empire having been largely influenced by the real-life Nazis, which I'm sure was mentioned here already. While I have no issue with the comparison, I find it odd people "confirm" the end of the Empire after Palpatine's death by comparing it to the death of Hitler and the incredibly quick demise of the Nazis thereafter. The problem I see with that is that it was not the death of Hitler that brought down Nazi Germany -- instead it was overwhelming power of opposing military forces pushing well into the country's borders combined with the collapse of infrastructure and a general lack of needed supplies.

Now, by all appearances the Rebels were not a massive force to be reckoned with right at the end of the film (in fact, I think it's alluded that essentially their entire fleet is there at Endor for an all-in effort). I'm sure they increased their power after the news got out, systems swaying into their influence of course... but not in such a way to completely overpower the Empire, who certainly did not have their entire Imperial Navy present at the battle. While a massive loss, it's not a "nail in the coffin" type of loss, to me.

Bringing what I feel would be a better comparison, I will mention the Germans after WWI. Broken, hungry, reduced in land and military size, and burdened by massive obligations to the victors... but not destroyed. Changed, no longer an empire, but hardly incapable of pushing their way around and eventually making themselves a force to be reckoned with again, as well as what was essentially an empire.

And that's before the sheer weight of countries entering later like the US could fully be felt. I don't even think the Star Wars universe has such an analog of a powerful realm sitting on the sides (the Hutts don't seem the type to really participate), unless a gigantic rebellion took place in powerful systems... and I'm not sure they'd even align themselves with the general Rebellion but might instead push for their independence, akin to the constituent countries and populations of Austria-Hungary. We already know the Republic and Empire were conglomerates, and I think after what would be 30+ years of warfare mixed with oppression some would move to get themselves out of it all while neither the Empire nor the Republic were strong enough to keep them in.

Perhaps we'll see a similar situation as what happened historically. Rebellion "defeats" the Empire (perhaps after some additional noteworthy victories following Endor), forces them to a peace as a rump state, and then works at rebuilding the collection of systems into the Republic again. Something of a cold war ensues while the Empire secretly works to increase the effectiveness of their military and advance it technologically (like Hitler did with his military when he was not supposed to by the accords of the treaty) while the Republic busies itself elsewhere, until it sees itself strong enough to begin taking back territories by force.

 

First it should be stated that there are any number of directions they could take that are valid and make sense. So we are really speculating.

The closest thing to an actual view of politics of the Empire is the tearing down of Palpatine's statue in ROTJ. This says to me that the empire was far more than a tight monarchy that gave a lot of stability and order. There must have clearly been a dislike for Palpatine among the masses. If the story stops at ROTJ it conceivably is a happily ever after moment Han and Leia gets married and the senate reconvenes and everything is good. This suggests that the new trilogy could begin with a threat to the new republic.

That is of course not the only option.

Continued war. After a press of victories and more systems joining the Rebellion now formally the Alliance even a few Imperial governors throwing in behind them. However the military discipline and contingency plans of the Empire kick in and after a period of infighting one of the Mofs or generals rise to lead the empire. The resulting war could very well rage for 30 years or end at any time with the Empire consolidating with a smaller footprint leaving the Alliance to make its own way. Like the Byzantine empire following the fall of the western empire. This could easily end up with a resulting cold war which many have speculated.

Factions, chaos and lawlessness. This could easily follow the fall of the Empire. Imagine complete breakdown of the empire. It becomes the wild west. Sure some governers maintain control. Some of the Alliance systems are safe but the empire Balkanized into many factions. This would put legacy empire factions, criminal orgs like the Hutts or Black Sun and even elements of the Alliance breaking off now that the overthrow of the Emperor has been achieved.

My speculation is something like a combination of continued war/factions exists. Partly because GL said that the 3rd trilogy will involve the moral choices of ruling and establishing the Republic. So I could see flaring up conflict with the remnant of the empire and the alliance needing the help of the Hutts (there was a rumored scene with Leia meeting with Hutts) or even Black Sun to consolidate power.

 

Did the people of the empire even know their emperor was a Sith Lord?

I wouldn't consider the empire as a Sith Empire.

Darth Vader was criticised for his belief in the force etc etc in ANH but they never mentioned anything about the emperor.

 

Good point. I'll also point out that Tarkin said to Vader "You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion."

Two notes on that: 1) it was referring to the Jedi. Full quote: "The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe. You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion." and 2) After watching the PT, I find it a tad amusing that he has the gall to refer to Vader as if he were still a Jedi.

I've wondered if it that was just a confusion the general public (including Tarkin) had, thinking everyone who was a Force-user was a "Jedi" as a generic term. I almost feel it's that, because were he privy to who the Sith were, and that the Emperor was a Sith as was Vader, I'd find it terribly amusing that he would call him a Jedi.

In any case, if it refers solely to Force-use, or "Force religion", then it implies he didn't know the Emperor had such ability.

 

I would imagine no. I would suspect a very healthy propaganda element.

Thus Vader was the only jedi not in on the evil Jedi plot to destroy the republic. He continues in the true sense of the Jedi as guardian of peace, order and stability. Which after all our glorious Emperor wants.

 

Star Wars is very much a fairy tale. So at the end of ROTJ, we get the fairy tale ending. The wicked which is dead, the kingdom is returned to order and they all live happy ever after.

That is the narrative that is being pushed at the end of ROTJ. The "tension" being built up through the whole movie is that both sides are gearing up to what will be the all or nothing battle. Both armies, and the confrontation between father and son. That is why the drama of the Rebel meeting is ratcheted up when it is revealed that the Emperor himself will be there...

In a fairy tale, evil empires crumble when the evil king, or wicked witch dies. It's the short and sweet way to reward the good guys for being good.

In the book "Making of Return Of The Jedi", Lucas points out a couple times that he has to wrap up the story so that the Empire is defeated.

Lucas even strengthens the narrative that the empire is defeated at the end of ROTJ when he did the SE and we see the Galaxy in open revolt, and the symbols of the Empire are being torn down (a stormie being thrown over a ledge, and the Emperor's statue on Coruscant being brought down).

So to deny that the narrative at the end of ROTJ is anything but the defeat of the Empire is, at least in my opinion, people trying to find a way to defend Episode 7 at the expense of ROTJ.

 

This is by far one of my favorite threads. Applying political science and IR theory to SW combines two of my most gloriously geeky interesst

Now that the lovey bit's outta the way, I hafta agree that there's absolutely no way the Empire ends at Endor. The admirals and moffs have too much power and influence and there's too many of them with unbounded ambition to not at least make their own individual power plays (recently listened to the Tarkin audiobook, and that plays a big role). They probably couldn't take over the whole shebang, but they could carve out their own fiefdoms with plenty of surplus hardware to back it up.

 

I would point out that Rome was destroyed but the remnants of the same structure reformed as the Byzantine empire. So I don't think it cheapens the destruction of the Empire in ROTJ to have continued strife years later. We saw a great victory the evil emperor was destroyed and now we are seeing the repercussions of how peace and stability are brought back and it is not narrativly necessary that every single empire official rolled over and gave up.

 

You do realize that you are comparing actual real life history to a fairy tale?

That was kinda the whole point of my post