SPECULATION State of the Empire

Considering that Star Wars borrows on both history, fairy tale and a great many other things I felt my comments consistent with the subject matter. You seemed to suggest that if any empire remains that somehow the story would destroy the victory of ROTJ.

 

That's because the narrative being pushed at the end of ROTJ was just that, the Empire was destroyed, which falls in line with the Fairy Tale aspect of Star Wars.

Now it gets retconned, and we are left trying to find excuses (not reasons) why things happened differently then the end of ROTJ portrayed them as happening.

 

In my mind, you're right but with caveats. It is most definitely a fairy tale, but fairy tales (and most fantastical fiction--especially sci-fi) work well when they serve as allegories for real-life trials and tribulations. We need those historical and contextual references to hang our hats on as an audience. By grounding a piece of fiction, no matter how far-fetched, it connects us to the characters and the story in a very real way. There's also plenty of examples where GL pulled from real-life examples to establish story points and features (the name "stormtrooper" and Darth Vader's "fritz-style" helmet are very intentional references to Nazi Germany and WWII). The entire prequel trilogy with its trade negotiations and Palpatine's political machinations is a perfect--if ponderous, heavy-handed and poorly executed--example. A politically multi-polar galaxy with many, many factions trying to advance their own agendas through peaceful and, more-likely, ultra-violent and visible means is a perfect mirror for our world circa 2015.

 

But it is only retconned for those of us who saw the ROTJ as the end. Lucas intended more stories. So there was always going to be more to the story. Lets put it this way. The Galaxy was restored to peace and with the evil witch's defeat her evil minions retreated to the haunted asteroid field.

 

Well... as the political stronghold of the Empire was seen collapsing at the end Jedi, it might no longer be an Empire. Also as it's forced to defend rather than conquer?

So, the Empire could now be a renaissance of a new faction? Maybe, the good guys this time?

 

I doubt that any faction of the crumbled Empire will be considered "good," but that being said, there's a huge difference between out-and-out evil like it was in the OT, and the sort of bad the remnants probably exemplify. They're probably still doin' naughty things, but an occasional beneficent act may pop up every once in a while. A broken clock is still right at least twice a day, and all that...

More than likely, it'll be somewhat akin to a bunch of bickering feudal states that sometimes fight among themselves and sometimes work together to one end (and I doubt that one end would ever help the citizenry). But no one state is like the other, so there are probably many different shades and levels of "badness."

 

From a point of view.

The British Empire was a unforgiving conquering faction hundreds of years ago that iembossed it's idealogies worldwide. Now the media hails it as one of society's leaders.

The USA and Europe with histroy of bloodshed on it's soil as it established itself, are presently a political and economic empires through the media, and they've wrapped up the world into it's culture.

 

I think the empire should at least be a weaker form of it's former self, but as the story in TFA unfolds, we should see them regaining some of there former power.
But maybe the picture of the Trailer will give us some clues:
These Stormtroopers are definitely in Top notch condition, They don't look like they belong to a worn down empire.(you might say they are new recruits, but that's not likely) Their Armor is shiny new, and it looks like they are a part of a big assault or invasion. This Picture tells me that the Empire (if it's still called that) is alive and seemingly prospering. My guess is either the "Empire" hasn't been fighting the "Rebels" that long, or the empire has the upper hand once again. Let's look at those theories closer.
The theory that the Empire has not been fighting that long is simple and could make sense. It is possible that after the destruction of the 2nd Death Star sent the remaining Imperial fleet in Disarray, and scattered across the Galaxy. After 30 years, the Imperial remnants would have come together again and either re-forged the Empire, or established a new entity, which would follow the example of the former Empire. These leaders of the "Neo-Empire" would then secretly build its power over the 30 years. until in the picture above. They then would quickly strike hard and quickly against the former Rebels.
As for the other theory, I think the Empire only was weakened at Endor, and after 30 long years of war, the empire quickly boosted their power and quickly which made them superior to the Rebels.
I myself like the first theory best. Let me know what you think.

 

@Batman Quite right my good Dark Knight!

[Disclaimer on this post: Sorry this is a long-winded post, and meant to be an exercise in geo-political analysis and prognostication rather than a crazy rant (even though I realize it kind of looks like one). I have a gig that doesn't really allow me to work out these kinda mental muscles, and I kinda got on a roll]

If one were to remove their respective "'Murica!" or '"QueenAndCountryQuiteRight!" spectacles and look at the American empire (yes fellow 'Muricans, search your feelings, you know it to be true) or the British Empire from a neutral point of view, you'd see a pretty nasty, brutish and, a lot of times, really evil history. But so as not to go full Howard Zinn, there's also been plenty of good too. Despite all the bad (and there's been plenty), and thanks to a lot of really unassailably good, noble folks with even nobler intentions, I feel like on balance when you take the full breadth of the individual histories into account they both come out in the "basically good" camp.

However, all that goes out the window once many of the checks on the more "evil" inclinations evaporate as they might during a protracted struggle. The U.S., for example, is a not a nation, but country made up of many nations. We just call them states. If it were to break up, many of the checks on the shall-we-say "baser" political and social instincts that you find in the Constitution would disappear fairly quickly in many of those smaller nations. I live in, was born-and-raised and am fairly proud to be from, Texas. But holy hell, a neo Republic of Texas is most definitely not a country I'd wanna live in (or would feel very welcome in for that matter). Basically, there'd be states-***-nations where your average citizen would be much better off.

Now here's where I get back to SW and speculating about what became of the Empire...The same principles would apply, for the most part, to the different "nations" of the former Empire, but with some pretty big differences. Yes, there'd be places that'd be better to live in than others, but it'd be the crazy-pants mirror to a broken-up U.S. because you're starting with a political actor that was unarguably and unequivocally evil from head-to-toe, rather than one that's basically kinda good with some very evil tendencies.

Every road and school the Empire built was more than likely matched by 10 planets or races burnt to the ground or subjugated. When the Empire crumbles, some of that may go away in different degrees depending on the whims and motivations of whichever governor or moff or admiral or warlord or crimelord that picked up the pieces in each system, but the former-Imperial well was poisoned to start, and it's not something a successor government can easily overcome unless they start. And thanks to the multitude of factions jockeying for position, it's very likely to be horribly unstable.

A citizen of a system ruled by an Imperial remnant faction is likely to have a government that he or she probably doesn't trust (thanks to evil deeds that no amount of positive spin can overcome no matter how much time passes), is inherently unstable thanks to a hundred other baby Empires just like it and ruled by a leader(s) that only got the opportunity to lead by rising to the top of a system that rewarded ruthlessness, backstabbing and ruling through fear--traits that just don't go away (Darth Vader's turn to good notwithstanding). Best case scenario for an ex-Imperial faction is becoming more stable by eating up brother and sister factions by force.

 

I agree that your first theory is the best. It is unrealistic to think the Empire disappeared after the Battle of Endor. However, losing its leadership and a good number of its resources it would have become severely weakened. There was probably enough loyal Imperials that new leadership would form and over 30 years it could conceivably grow in strength and numbers as you suggest. Add in an new "Awakening" of the Dark Side and you have the makings of a new Imperial Alliance ready to take control of the Galaxy.

On the other side you have the New Republic which after 30 years is out of it's "honeymoon phase" and dealing with its own internal government struggles, devoid of Jedi since Luke's disappearance now having to deal with the new Imperial/Dark Side threat.
A search for Luke ensues creating an "awakening" in the Light Side and sets up the storyline for the next 2 movies

 

I still somehow think its possible that the remains of the empire came under the control of the new republic. The empire once was the republic. In the PT Palpatine declaired himself emperor. When he dies, the senate who fear him and his power, and also the ones who helped him run the galaxy decide that since he is dead to go back to the ways of old. They elect a new leader, Possibly Mon Mothma, or Leia. Since the senate would take control of whatever forces the empire held, then I could see the new republic using funds to buy newer gear and upgrading tech for its soldiers.

What are we seeing in the trailer. New shiny troopers. Someone is funding them.
Also as speculated the tie fighters do not seem to be shooting at the falcon, which would point to those ships being on the same side as our heroes.
A rumor I have heard and spoke of was that Lando was in charge of the imperial fleet or empire. If this is true, it could give weight to Finn being his son and being a storm trooper, cause the troopers may be the good guys too.

But what about the rebel x wings? If the storm-troopers, star destroyers and all the other military gear become part of the new republic why would we see rebel style x wings? Because they too are part of the new republic notice they look newer and upgraded as well.

What we are seeing is a one sided trailer meant to fool us. Storm troopers and tie fighter makes it look as though our heroes are fighting familiar enemies when in FACT all we are seeing are the good guys military. The real enemy has not been shown to us. We are just to assume things are the way we remember them.

EDIT:
I forgot to say that I think there may still be broken factions of the old empire. Fighting with old style trooper armor and tech. I think it would be cool to see old troopers fighting the newer troopers.

 

The thing to remember there is no senate. It was dissolved. Sure the Alliance might have council that they intend to become the Senate. But that would need time to form. The governors are already in charge of their regions. This could mean they simply become many small monarchies or Planet-States or that they work together under a successor to Palpatine to keep anything they can. Sure its not the whole galaxy but its almost half. Remember also that there were disagreements in the galaxy before the Empire. Will the now free planets that were formerly Sepratists now ride to the Alliances banner or will they Balkanize because their beef predates the rebellion and democracy epitomized by the Republic failed them.

At the end of the day the make up of the Galaxy will be entirely what serves the script. Some stories work better with a monolithic New Republic others need a Cold War, others a contracted ongoing struggle, others need a murkier quagmire of factions and twists and turns.

 

Stormtrooper 1: Did you here in some podunk sector a bunch of the rebels blew up the new Death Star.
Trooper 2: Really we built a second one. I thought the rumors were all bluster propaganda.
Stormtrooper 1: No really I had a cousin they called in for the aluminum siding. Anyway the blew it up its all over the news. Rioters in Corsucant toppled the statue of the Emporer.
Trooper 2: Call command its probably a drill.

 

I agree... New book shows others had a huge hand in the empire like Tarkin... Should still see the Empire... Rome didn't die when Augustus Caesar did nor will the Empire at the death of Palps...

 

I applaud you work and the spirit of what you are trying to do is right on. The problem is this is a 2D map of a 3D galaxy. The outer rim is a full sphere of worlds on the edges of the galaxy. Corsucant is the center. The toppling of the Statue of Palps suggest some degree of unrest which could be suppressed but they made that look like a really big riot. So there would be throughout the galaxy systems more fully Alliance and others more easily held by the Empire (because the regional governor is strong or well liked). So the rival militaries will be running around the galaxy securing resource and strategic worlds. It could develop into a division that is a plane (as opposed to line) or sectors but that is difficult to draw out.

 

I would argue that the celebration was the defeat of the emperor... Not the empire with the exception of the awful fill in special edition planets.... That was horrible... A power struggle would be imminent...

 

Is it possible the stormtroopers we see in the trailer are performing a covert military operation? On the surface the Empire is cooperating with whatever the Rebels call themselves at this point but, we have a small faction within the Empire doing as they please?

 

Personally, I like the idea of the empire being on the losing end of the war. It's been 30 years without the emperor, so I'd expect most of the Moff/faction conflicts to be over. I think Captain Phasma will probably be the leader of the largest faction remaining (the one with Finn in it), and that will be the primary enemy for the rebels. As for the political atmosphere, I could see the empire still holding onto the capital, but it'd be a very loose control with many internal revolts. The rebels will almost certainly have the upper hand.......that is, until the Sith return...

 

I get where you're coming from. The main reason why I will always love the OT more than the PT is just that; the fairy tale innocence worked so well.
However there might be a way out of the episode six finale without being too contrived. The victory at the end of ROTJ was over Vader and Palpatine, it was about the destruction of the Sith and the end of the Empire as the ruling power. Nothing about that has changed I think; I believe this new empire will probably rule over small parts of the galaxy without evil Sith at the top trying to control everything. It will take some creative writing to bring back this new empire as the main threat though, on that we agree. Too much real world politics in Star wars kills the magic.

On the other hand, the rebirth of evil and the cyclic nature of the eternal struggle between the 'dark' and the 'light' is classic storytelling. Even Sauron was a resurrected evil in Tolkiens's backstory (check the Silmarillion if you haven't yet, it's brilliant) for his Hobbit and Rings books.

Or the Hammer Horror Dracula films: Dracula was resurrected in the most ludicrous and pulpy ways at the beginning of each sequel (Taste The Blood Of Dracula being my favourite) and the films didn't suffer from it. It was part of their charm.