Battle in the Throne Room

Well, PC games are a bit dangerous to back theories because they have their own "laws". I wouldn't want to believe that Jedi can carry a wagon of loot or that hitting an opponent depends on some die casting. Also there's another possibility - I would be completely fine with amor increasing the chance of using a mind trick for example or something like that - but not disallowing pushing/pulling/suspending in the air.

No, because so far the TLJ throne room fight is unique. Earlier we had Jedi vs Sith. As we saw in RotS - force sensitives can try to defend themselves against pushing, so maybe that's why it was so rarely used during fight. Here, in TLJ, we clearly had a different fight - Force sensitives versus non-Force sensitives. They didn't have Force-proof armor, didn't have ability to defend themselves against it.

There was one similar fight - on the bridge of Grevious' ship - Obi-Wan and Anakin against droids. But Obi-Wan and Anakin were clearly in control of everything, so I can accept the explanation they chose not to use the Force. Kylo, on the other hand, was clearly struggling to win and the last guardian had an upper hand until Rey threw her lightsaber.

I'm grateful too, because I love fencing and SW gives us this fantastic mix of new technology, starships, lasers AND old plain swordfencing. But if this is SW and we all know Kylo has incredible powers - then not using them at all really makes no sense. It's the paradox the storymakers created - first they created characters who have unique powers to make them more interesting but then they refused to show these characters actually use them when really necessary, probably because that would make movies less interesting. I know that Kylo lifting all guards simultaneously and breaking their necks with the Force would be much less spectacular. Or suspending them in the air and then piercing them al with his lightsaber. Or throwing them one by one into that electric shaft or whatever that was. I really realise that. But to me it's still not a good excuse. Maybe instead of using non-Force sensitive guards who should pose no real threat to any trained Force-sentitive - director should've used someone else as Snoke's guard? Because that's exactly what I mean by bad writing - first he decided that there will be a fight between Kylo and guards, he also decided the guards will be non Force-sensitives and then he had to somehow even the chances so Kylo wouldn't just cut through them like warm knife through butter. So the only way out of this mess he created was to force Kylo NOT use the Force, his obvious advantage.

"-Ok, so we have this badass, and he has a gun that disables all droids with one shot! It's a really cool gun and it saved his ass hundreds of times before! And this badass guy then fights with bunch of bad guy's bodyguards. And these bodyguards are the coolest droids you've ever seen!
- But... he has this gun, he could just shoot them with ease and win.
- Hmm... so we'll make him drop it. Or it ran out of batteries! And then he'll have to fight them bare handed - 15 minutes of bare handed awesomness! You'll see, the audience will love it!"

And I don't think that mixing comedies with Star Wars is a good idea. SW, even with its humorous accents, are not comedy films. While I love for example the Naked Gun - I would hate to see such humor in SW.

EDIT: ok, there also was a Geonosis arena battle, where Jedi were also losing but still didn't send droids flying. So it is a second example of this plot hole.

 

no, see, you're conflating "comedy" with silliness and that's not what we're talking about.
we're talking about bending the logic so that something can be deliberately less cerebral/less complicated and more entertaining.
and again, clearly that's not something you care for and that's okay.
but that doesn't make it less of a valid artistic choice.

Star Wars is an art. it's not an equation.

 

To me lack of concentration is a perfectly acceptable justification. We saw Kylo freeze a blaster bolt in TFA, but later he was too thrown off to stop Chewbacca from shooting him. In the first scenario he was dominating, the other one, similarly to the TLJ fight, is completely different. Or maybe the way in which Kylo taps into the Force doesn't allow him to do the same stuff e.g. Anakin does. Maybe everybody has personal limitations. Who knows. It's magic.

We don't know how the Force works exactly, so in situations like this (where it clearly isn't a big deal) it's probably better to assume there must be some reason for what we see.

 

I always just kind of assumed everyone had different connections with the force. Like how Ezra is super connected to animals...and all they did was basically try to kill Luke.

 

I'm just disappointed there wasn't any high ground in the throne room scene.

 

The problem is that you can't defend an obvious logic flaw just by saying "but it's art and it makes a perfect artistic choice". Maybe it's great visually that way, but it's still bad writing. And not "intentionally bad writing so it can be hillariously funny at the same moment", but just plain bad writing by guys who got cornered by their own ideas.

 

good Lord, i'm not! XD

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2018 ---

but it's not a flaw. it's a choice. and it's not bad writing.
it makes sense in the internal logic of Star Wars and just as @srg said, there's many ways to explain it away.
the point is we don't need to because the genre does not demand it.

it doesn't work for you and that's fair enough to say. it works for me. it works for many.
and not because we just ignore it, excuse it, or accept some "low standard" of plot-hole-riddled nonsense.
but because we understand that it's exactly what we paid for.

i didn't hand my money over to Johnson and say: this better make sense. i handed it over and said: make me feel something.

and really that's all we can ask of any filmmaker.

 

I don't see any flaw in this fight. Do you want to know which fight scene has a big flaw in Star Wars? Obi-Wan vs Grievous. This duel is pretty illogical.

The funny thing is, that that throne room fight scene was the first thing Rian Johnson came up with.

 

The only obvious logic flaw I see is arguing with some who thinks the throne room scene has obvious logic flaws.

 

Well, you know, there is this disappearing weapon thingy that popped up a few pages back but except for that it's still a pretty sweet scene. Rey dropping her lightsaber to grab it a second later and cut Preatorian Guard's knees is magic.

 

The high ground scene in RotS was an awesome, great art! Jar Jar was pretty artistic too, so don't you dare to criticise it.

I don't see how "a choice" can't be a bad one and thus be a flaw. You say it's not a bad choice and ok, I respect you think that way. I just don't agree.

Nope, there's no way to explain it rationally and be satisfied with it. Kylo didn't suddenly lose his abilities. Guards were not Force-proof. He had the power, he had the time to do it (hell, he was able to freeze a BOLT shot at him, so he's go both reflex and skill). The only rational explanation is that he just chose to not use it even when facing death - and that unfortunately makes him an idiot. So there's no win here - either bad writing, or a retarded hero.

"Independence day" and its sequel worked for many too. Just like many other pretty bad movies ("2012" ). So that's not an excuse. And it's definately not an excuse to put irrational elements in the movies because it's harmful for the public on the long run - it's lowering standards. Not for just those who agree to such practices, but for all viewers.

There's also one more thing. I'm a guy who always try to stay rational and not be a hypocrite. I am a SW fan but I can look at things I don't like and criticize them loudly. Not everyone can act that way and there's a lot of people who will defend even the worse ideas just because they are in their favourite movies.
In my family only I love Star Wars. My brother don't like it at all, but is taking his kids to every SW movie so far. And he liked only Rogue One, probably because it's the most serious movie with the least amount of "bad writing". He completely dislikes TFA and TLJ. I think that he has a more objective perspective on these movies because he's not a fan and can't be accused of making excuses just to defend his beloved franchise. Asking a SW fan about the quality of SW films may be just as wise as asking imam, rabbi and a bishop "which religion is true?". There's a risk you'll get a biased answer

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2018 ---

Hah, it's actually good. Obi-Wan wanted to stall Grevious, make him focus on something. Grevious was too proud to let the droids kill Obi-Wan, his ego wanted to kill him personally. And it was well made to show Obi-Wan's mastery with the lightsaber fencing. Grevious also did what was very logical - two lightsabers whirling like helicopter blades - deadly, confusing etc. I would freak if I had to face enemy like that and I'd be killed in the first few seconds. Obi-Wan didn't freak and die, because he was strong in the force and skilled enough to face even such threat.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2018 ---

Well, there is logic flaw in throne room fight and it is an obvious one. You haven't seen TLJ yet or what?

 

if those are choices that work for you ~ awesome! : D

yes, choices can be bad. i didn't say whether it was a bad one or a good one. i said it was a deliberate one, and therefore not a flaw.
a flaw would be something unintentional. this whole battle is intentional. Johnson made choices.

if this were Asimov, you would have totally valid points and i would support them. but it's not. it's a space fantasy in which the nature of its magic is redefined every time we see it on screen. the great failure of much criticism is that it's not appropriately tailored to the genre or intent of the work.

we can decry the utter pablum of superhero movies, but that's what they're supposed to be. what's the point of gnashing our teeth at them?
we shouldn't want all our art to serve satisfy the same intellectual purpose. again; the point is to feel, not to explain.

what's my head canon? Ren's powers have limits. it's hard for him to concentrate on multiple foes.
as was mentioned before, he blew it when he was distracted and Chewie shot him. he blew it again fighting Finn for no reason at all.
he's got a lot going on in his head at this point: he just killed Snoke, he's got Rey within arm's reach.
his whole life is about to either make perfect sense or collapse like a dying star and all he has to do is get through this fight to find out which.

Ren isn't the sum of his Force powers. he's a (very flawed, very emotional) human being.
if he doesn't make a logical choice in the heat of the moment, that's in perfect keeping with his character.

so no, it's not bad writing, it's not a flaw. it's a logical part of the world and the character that Abrams and Johnson created.

 

We told you what's going on in this scene. Like @FN-3263827 already mentioned it's all part of the characters. Furthermore the Praetorian Guards aren't just some random dudes. They are trained to kill a Jedi and they almost suceeded to kill two of them in the throne room.
Yes, TLJ has a lot of problems and I'm not a big fan of it myself, but the throne room fight is the slightest problem. Actually it's no a problem at all to me. It's one of my most favorite fight scenes in the whole saga, because it looks and feels real. *cough* prequels...

Now I can't take you seriously anymore. Sorry... Like Hellogreedo said it: "The prequels ruined the nobility and grace of the lightsaber. It was so saturared with lightsabers that it actually made lightsabers boring. General Grievous, you are f***ing lame."

 

What if he chose it to be like that without thinking that it's inconsistent with SW lore? Or he just focused on visual aspects and thought "let's not think too much about logic, the audience will love it anyway"? I know it was his choice - I just don't know why he decided to do it that way, I may only presume. And right now I think it's just an effect of the bad decision making - in order to make Force-sensitive fight against non Force-sensitives and maintain the impression that non Force-sensitives are a match for a Force-sensitive hero (and we were being told that Snoke's guards are "elite") - the guy with obvious advantage (the Force) has to abstain from using it somehow. You can't just create an overpowered hero and then throw him against non overpowered ones and make a good, "realistic" (accrording to the lore) fight, because the overpowered one would destroy is opponents in no time. It's just like in MMO games. When something is deemed overpowered - developers of the game nerf it. That's what Rian did in the throne room - he nerfed overpowered Kylo so the fight could be more pleasant for the viewer. And that's it.

So you say you would accept without any problems even the dumbest ideas just because "it's a space fantasy" or "it's just such genre"? We had another "perfect" Rian's idea when he decided to make Superman Leia. It's another idiotic decision which can't be really defended. No "force bubble" or anything like that can repair the damage done to the movie with this one completely unnecessary scene. And I disagree that I should consider it "great" or "logical" just because "it's such genre" or "because it's art" or "but it looks so great and gives great feelings!".

Then why didn't he throw away just one guy when they were still far away from him? And here's where your theory do not work.

You told me your opinion and your explanation and I don't have to share it just because you wrote it, just as you don't have to automatically agree with me. It's your opinion and your explanation - and it's cool, but I still disagree with it.

Absolutely real - in a world without Force users. It would look perfect in a Star Trek or something like that. But in a world of wizards with laser swords who can do mindblowing tricks (we all know what Force users are able to do) - it's not looking real.

Don't be sorry for expressing your opinion. I'm not.

 

this is a conclusion you've drawn. that's a choice you've made; to believe this rather than anything else.

no, i didn't actually say that.

this is an illogical rejoiner. if he's distracted or incapacitated by his emotions, then he's distracted and incapacitated.
from the moment he killed Snoke (heck, i would say from the moment Rey landed on the Supremacy), he was compromised.

you don't want to see any logic in it and therefore you won't ~ and that's your prerogative, and that's okay. : D

 

Because, so far, it's the most logical explanation. Also because it's a movie, not real life, and movies tend to be badly written quite often. When someone makes a movie in which Moon has the same gravity like Earth and people walk there just like on Earth - it's not because it's realistic, great, artistic or anything like that. It's because someone wrote the script that way, making a serious mistake in the process. And no fan theories can reverse it.

Yet you still defend the Kylo's portrayal during that duel.

What about the night he ran off from Luke? He thought Luke is going to kill him - his own uncle and master. He was, as Luke described, frightened. Yet he still managed to bring down the roof within seconds - and he was just a teenager then. So I'm pretty sure he should be able to use his Force abilities when emotionally distracted. And that's why I still think the throne room fight is an example of a bad writing.

But you know there is an absolutely the same probability that you don't want to see it's illogical and therefore you won't?

And so far I think I managed to disprove everything you threw at me - "Force armor", "can't use force because of the emotions", "can't focus during fight" etc. It really looks like you just don't want to admit it's bad writing and are making any excuse you can to maintain that there's absolutely nothing illogical in that fight. Visually it's great - it's fantastic even. But don't let that cloud your judgement.

 

the difference is i understand why you think it's illogical--because it doesn't explicitly answer all your questions to your satisfaction.
but that's not the movie's fault. it's not for the movie to explain everything.
that's what we have imaginations for.

but you don't seem to a.) understand that, and b.) even want to try.

again: that's entirely your prerogative! : D

 

No, I think it's illogical because it is illogical. There's no satisfying answer to that question. As I said - either a bad writing or a dumb decision of the main hero - and both these explanations are bad.

And how that can make me like Superman Leia scene or consider it realistic? Do you like it? Do you think it's logical and realistic?

 

you don't have to like anything!
and how i think or feel about it is irrelevant.

but you will always be dissatisfied if you insist on applying qualitative judgment to something about which you have immovable assumptions based on false premises:

1. that a space fantasy should adhere to your personal need for total transparent logic (and explain every motive, decision, action, and magical Force property, its usage, applications, effort requirements, etc. ).
   
2. that dumb decisions are never made by "heroes"
   • firstly, Ren is not a hero;
     
   • secondly, all he does is make dumb decisions ~ honestly, what else can i tell you? : o p

 

I think you make a good point here and unlike the slow chase in space, I thought the Throne Room fight was fun. But to each their own.

Like I wrote in my earlier post, you can't rule out that KOTOR's Force Amor has become canonized.