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Canonical Force Ghost history and what it means for the future

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by LadyMusashi, Dec 18, 2017.

  1. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    After seeing Yoda's Force demonstration in The Last Jedi, I decided to summarize everything we know about Force Ghosts and their history and abilities in the new canon, so we can speculate what that means for the future, especially of one Luke Skywalker.

    The history is in the chronological order.

    I

    In Attack of the Clones, while Anakin is killing Tuskan Raiders, Yoda senses his pain, but we, the audience, hear Qui-Gon Jinn's voice yelling: "No, Anakin!"

    II

    In the sixth season of The Clone Wars, in the episodes Voices, Destiny and Sacrifice, Yoda hears voice calling him from the Force - the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn who retained his identity in the Cosmic Force. But, because he was killed before his training was complete, he could not show himself. He sends Yoda to the Origin of All-Life where he trains under the Force priestesses. One of his trials is to face and accept his Dark Side.

    III

    At the end of the Revenge of the Sith, Yoda tells Obi-Wan to study the technique Qui-Gon learned to achieve immortality.

    IV

    In the story Master and Apprentice from the book From a Certain Point of View, during A New Hope timeline, while Luke runs to find Owen and Beru, Qui-Gon materializes in front of Obi-Wan. Over time, Qui-Gon has learned how to separate himself from the Force and, while he was previously communing with Obi-Wan telepathically and teaching him, considering the importance of the moment he takes a more corporeal form. This process of separation from the Force into the physical world is very painful. Also, time within the Cosmic Force isn't linear.

    Later, during A New Hope, Obi-Wan sacrifices himself and becomes one with the Force. He is able to communicate with Luke by voice - while Luke and others are escaping and during the trench run. Prior to death he tells Vader: If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine

    V

    In The Empire Strikes Back, Obi-Wan communicates both by voice and by showing himself on Hoth and Dagobah.

    VI

    In Return of the Jedi, Yoda becomes one with the Force. At the end of the movie, the ghosts of Anakin, Yoda and Obi-Wan show themselves to Luke.

    Return of the Jedi DVD commentary:

    "This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father. Even though later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he was able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who learned how to do that: how to join the Force at will and then retain your identity. But it was his identity as he was when he died as Anakin Skywalker."

    Basically, Obi-Wan and Yoda preserved Anakin's spirit until he learned what he needed to learn. And since the time in the Force isn't linear they could do that, even though only a short time passed in the real world.

    VII

    In The Last Jedi, once Luke re-establishes his connection to the Force, Yoda is able to appear to him. Yoda demonstrates that he is capable of affecting the real world by calling down the lightning to burn the Jedi tree. He practically fulfills Obi-Wan's promise to Vader, not only had he achieved immortality, he is more powerful than anything Dark Sider can imagine.

    After giving similar, but more personal, promise to his nephew, Luke Skywalker becomes one with the Force at the end of the movie.

    Let me know if I forgot any significant canon entries.


    To summarize and extrapolate:

    -By becoming one with the Force, a Jedi who received proper training and passed the trials (or received assistance) is able to retain their identity.

    -The process of learning doesn't stop after physical death - Qui-Gon learned how to materialize, Yoda to affect the physical world.

    -We don't know the limit of the power Jedi can acquire, but since the process of separating from the Force is painful, we can assume that it is limited, but beyond what a living Jedi can do.

    What this all might mean for Luke Skywalker?


    After the lessons he learned at the end of his life, we can expect that he will keep a promise to his nephew and stick around in a way Obi-Wan would if he haunted Luke. He also might give Rey some lessons in her moments of doubt.

    While I doubt that he will go around solving problems for the Resistance, we might possibly expect a singular demonstration of power in some crucial moment.

    Additionally, he might do for Leia what Obi-Wan and Yoda did for Anakin after she passes away. While she actively opened herself to the Force late in life and is not a Jedi in a classical sense, I don't think anyone can argue that Leia passed every imaginable trial - just by being Leia. Also, we are moving closer to the understanding of the Jedi from OT - it's the trials that matter.

    Tell me if I missed anything and what are you thoughts?


    NOTE: While The Last Jedi debate is lively and impressions are fresh, I will leave this thread here. In a few months when speculations start, I might move this thread to Episode IX forum and change the prefix to SPECULATION.
     
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  2. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Force Sensitive

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    Finally, I've been waiting for someone to create this type of post! Shows a good example of the logical progression of the force ghost.
     
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  3. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    Also, I forgot to add that the way I interpreted it, the pain is not so much physical as it is emotional, existential.
     
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  4. Darth Raybo

    Darth Raybo Rebel Official

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    What a great thread, some of the information you posted I either missed or didn't know so thanks for that. I think this "could" be a powerful part of the movies going forward. As you stated while being force ghost, the training continues. If Yoda could interact with the real world just what is the limit of their abilities, and who can it effect? This has so much potential and will be a great discussion going forward, hopefully we will learn more about this in written text or other forms and soon.
    It gives me hope that some of our beloved characters still may have some important on screen time, and not just giving advise but physical presence.
     
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  5. Lazlo

    Lazlo Rebel Official

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    To properly answer this question we have to try and understand how JJ will view this and how it will drive the story forward. I had the same thought about Yoda and the lightning... More powerful than you can possibly imagine.

    We have not seen the last depiction of Luke Skywalker by Mark Hamill.

    No doubt my thoughts will evolve over the next two years, but I think JJ will give the audience a lasting and final memory of Luke Skywalker as hero. He'll appear at a pivotal moment and nudge the scales just enough to let the good guys prevail.

    Personally I think it would be fun to have Luke torment Kylo Ren mercilessly, but I can see how it would be problematic story wise and would also lessen the effect of "LUKE"S BIG MOMENT TO PUT RIGHT THE SKYWALKER LEGACY."

    So yeah, I'm calling it. JJ is going to do something big with Luke in Episode IX
     
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  6. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    If he could just sass him just a bit, I'd be a happy camper. Luke sass game was on point in TLJ, both in actions and in words, with Rey and Kylo both. And there is nothing someone who craves power and to recreate the world in his own image hates more than being made fun of. So, a bit of Force Ghost sass, please. Learn from Yoda, Luke.

    If he truly liked TLJ script as much as people claimed, than he saw the same things we who liked the movie did and so he probably will. A little Force Ghost intervention to nudge the things in the rights direction. ;) Yoda's lightning opened a ton of possibilities.

    Plus, if you were a screenwriter, would you pass a chance to write the lines for Luke Skywalker?
     
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  7. lighteye

    lighteye Rebel Commander

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    Great post. Just a quick add on here. Obi-Wan also interacts with physical world in the RotJ - he moves lianes and sits down on a fallen tree. To me this indicates already possibility to interact with the physical world.
     
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  8. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    Canon means nothing.
    They can do what they want. :)
     
  9. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    I always thought that was an affectation, but your interpretation is equally valid - just a more subtle interaction than burning a tree. :D
     
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  10. TheBBP

    TheBBP Jedi Commander

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    Yeah, uhhhh... I was gonna say that too.

    Being serious, that is a great breakdown and solid speculation. Great post.
     
  11. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    Not really, the freedom is in the story, the devil is in the details. Every director/writer, even Rian who had the most freedom in terms of story, said that they worked with the Story Group after finishing the script. Rian's process was to write the script and then move to San Francisco for a few weeks where he worked with SG and they ironed out the script. Freedom in Star Wars doesn't mean you can do anything you want as some directors found out the hard way.
     
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  12. lealt

    lealt Rebel Official

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    As you said the Devil is in the details, meaning you can actually do whatever you want.
    You only have to find the way.
    So it's pointless to discuss... because there's not a long term plan.
    We cannot foresee what's coming.
    The Pandora's box is open.

    If something is useful for the plot, they'll do it.
     
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