Darth Plagueis In The Sequel Trilogy.

You mean the ones who grew up with the PT, who know more about midichlorians than old Star Wars fans? The same people who have heard about the legendary Sith Lord, Darth Plagueis?

 

Nope. I mean the ones who will need an explanation if Snoke ends up being Plagueis.

 

Palpatine = Darth Sidious, so I'm sure they'll be fine without one.

 

So much hope......I must ask. Which one of you is going to cry if it is not Plagueis?

 

While I allow for many possibilities, the "Snoke as Plagueis" possibility continues to stand out in my mind for a variety of reasons, including my studies in world literature and mythology.

The "Plagueis option" for Snoke, for me, harkens back to the classic literary work Frankenstein by Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley.

Among the many various parallels and connections I sense here, if Plagueis did in fact create (directly or indirectly provoking the Force to give rise to) Anakin Skywalker in the course of his experiments with midi-chlorians and Dark Side Force esoterica in his search for the secrets to immortality, Plagueis can be seen as having succeeded in creating something tantamount to a monster.

Here is some background information on Frankenstein:

• Project Gutenberg: Full Text eBook: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/41445
• SparkNotes: Plot Overview: http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/frankenstein/
• About the Characters:
  • http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/f/frankenstein/character-analysis/victor-frankenstein
  • http://www.cliffsnotes.com/literature/f/frankenstein/character-analysis/the-monster
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankenstein's_monster

• Some more information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankenstein

Now, the complete title of Frankenstein is Frankenstein ; Or, The Modern Prometheus.

Prometheus stole the secret of fire and gave it to humans.

Zeus, angered by this and having been tricked by Prometheus, "plagued man" through the creation of Pandora, the "all-gifted" one, who was presented to Prometheus' brother Epimetheus.

Pandora was given a container and was ever so curious, opening it even though she was warned, and, when she did, evil escaped across the world.

But one thing was left in the container: hope.

Interesting to note:

• Prometheus means "forethought"
• Epimetheus means "afterthought"

Here is some background information on Prometheus and Pandora:

• From Encyclopedia Mythica:
  • Prometheus: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/p/prometheus.html
  • Pandora: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/p/pandora.html
• From Infoplease:
  • Prometheus: http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/entertainment/prometheus-greek-mythology.html (note how Zeus "plagued man" through Pandora)
  • Pandora: http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/entertainment/pandora-greek-mythology.html
• More information:
  • http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/bulf/bulf01.htm
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora

Now there are many ways to regard and interpret all of this in the context of Snoke as Plagueis (or even, to a certain extent, just Snoke), and one of many possibilities I see, with relation to the Star Wars saga is how Plagueis is almost an amalgam of Prometheus and Pandora while at the same time existing at either end of those respective myths and what they represent:

• Prometheus steals the sacred secret of fire.
• Plagueis "steals" the secret of life/immortality from the midi-chlorians or more generally the Force.
• Prometheus gives the secret to man.
• Plagueis keeps the secret for himself.
• Prometheus' transgression brings punishment from Zeus by way of Pandora.
• Plagueis seems to operate at the periphery of galactic events, unscathed in the shadows, but his scars, aging, and possible frailty speak to some mortal wounding or punishment -- either from Palpatine and/or the Force itself.
• Pandora's entrance into the world marks the spread of evil: a veritable plague.
• Plagueis' forbidden dabblings with the Force have possibly brought about an unnatural state of enhanced evil into the galaxy, and that Dark Side is very much a plague, an illness for which the only current remedy is the Jedi and the Light side of the Force.

Now, coming full circle to Frankenstein with some interesting points hinting at possible connections across the saga...

• Frankenstein experiments with life, and the passing of a loved one compels him deeper into his research.
• Frankenstein finds a way to imbue life in that which is not alive.
• The grand result of his mad science is a monster nearly 8 feet tall.
• The Monster eventually seeks revenge against his creator because he cannot fit into society. He eventually confronts his creator about this point ("the Creature says that his encounters with people led to his fear of them, driving him into the wilderness" source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankenstein#Victor_Frankenstein.27s_narrative)
• The Monster demands a mate, someone like him.
• The Monster's creator seeks vengeance on his creation.

We can begin to see where Anakin (as Plagueis' possible creation) is comparable with Frankenstein's monster. Anakin's creation also bears some connection with the introduction of Pandora into the world.

Luke's entrance into the saga marks the birth of the new hope.

And we can see how the Monster acts in darkness born in fear.

We learn from Yoda where fear leads:

Prometheus, for all his actions, is made to exist in a state of perpetual punishment.

Snoke / Plagueis also appear to dwell in misery and perhaps use that for sustenance.

There's even more about this to consider, I believe, but I'll close this post on this note -- a hauntingly relevant quote from Frankenstein:

JediMasterRobert

 

Wow.

#PlagueisConfirmedForever

 

#TeamPlagueis #PlagueisConfirmed #PlagueisLives etc etc.

Amazing post.

 

@JediMasterRobert ​

If Snoke isn't Darth Frankenstein Plagueis
then Uncle MonkeyLizard Owen & Aunt Ahsoka Beru must have raised
the baby Luke & Leia Sith Twins under the one watchful eye of Master Even Piell.

***
#SnokeSucksWithoutPlagueis​

 

Thank you @JediMasterRobert for helping me find this thread.

And here I thought this thread was finally buried.

Welp, do any of you Plagueis believers care to foolishly bet 1000+ credits on the "Plagueis is not in Ep VIII" wager?

After reaping the benefits of the last one, I now hunger for more of your credits.

 

Yeah go on. But if Snoke's origins aren't revealed at all in VIII then you can keep your mitts off my credits!

 

I can't believe someone rated @JediMasterRobert's post clouded!

That a genius bit of posting right there even if it turns out DP isn't Snokey.

 

As an old Star Wars fan I am greeting people here for the first time.

I was tormented by the name SNOKE for months. I would like to present my personal explanation of everything to this respectful audience.

He introduces himself just as Supreme Leader. But inhabitants of the Galaxy, maybe Leia and Luke themselves named him SNOKE.

Only Palpatine and Anakin knew the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise , and they are both dead. So in fact nobody alive knows who Supreme Leader is, they cant explain it as nobody alive ever heard about Darth Plagueis, the Wise.

He never calls himself Snoke actually, Kylo Ren and general Hux refer to him officially as Supreme Leader.

Luke and Leia , after realising that they encountered another Sith ( after he turned Ben to the Dark side), a one that should not exist by their count , crafted a name that is actually description of his main trait : S.N.O.K.E. ( Sith - No - One - Knew - Existed ).

SNOKE ( Sith - No - One - Knew - Existed )

 

Hux and Kylo both refer to him as "Leader Snoke" in the same scene.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 19, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 19, 2016 ---

I'll bet every single credit I have before episode VIII, that Snoke is revelaed as Darth Plagueis. I'll also throw in my house, family and every penny I have.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 19, 2016 ---

After 478 pages, can someone please compile a believable theory regarding Snoke's identity. So far I've heard he's a random bad old alien who has no connection to he previous 6 instalments and walks in and pretty much takes over the Galaxy. Or he's Jar Jar. He's someone who knew Plagueis . He's Anakin. He's Ezra. He's a random Jedi we never met who survived order 66. Lmfao.

Looking forward to comparing @master_shaitan's recent bullet pointed post to whoever is brave/foolish enough to challenge it.

 

I am 100 % sure without a doubt. I analysed everything said, from his scars http://s30.postimg.org/83t7ypq9t/Snoke.jpg, from him being "the Wise", from the fact his hologram idea for Snoke has been influenced by memorial Statue of Abraham Lincoln https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_(1920_statue), and finished by explaining( at least to myself) this strange name they crafted for the character: Sith No One Knew Existed, SNOKE. The Villiams music argument for me is of secondary importance, actually I dont see its very solid argument.

He is Plagueis, I bet in my 39 years of being Star Wars Fan.

 

Not just that, I always read the:

"He's an old Sith Lord that has cheated death but then left the Sith Order and created his own one in the Unknown Regions where he waited for Sidious to be destroyed before taking over".

Why not just call him Darth Plagueis and be done with it?

But indeed, I'd love to see an extensive list of points about who Snoke could be if not Plagueis. Where does the evidence lead?

 

None of the following post is evidence that Plagueis is Snoke, but if you're interested in James Luceno's Darth Plagueis novel, I want to suggest the idea that Plagueis cheated death purposely to further his own goals. It's an unlikely proposition, but his death did pave the way for Anakin to achieve his destiny with the dark side, a destiny that Plagueis had foreseen through a force vision, and a destiny that would never likely have occurred had Plagueis remained Sidious' master.

"Lifting his face from the macrobinoculars, he stretched out with the Force and fell victim to an assault of perplexing images: ferocious battles in deep space; the clashing of lightsabers; partitions of radiant light; a black-helmeted cyborg rising from a table … By the time his gaze had returned to the platform, Qui-Gon and the boy had disappeared.
Trying desperately to make some sense of the images granted him by the Force, he stood motionless, watching the starship lift from the platform and climb into the night.
He fought to repress the truth.
The boy would change the course of history.
Unless …
Maul had to kill Qui-Gon, to keep the boy from being trained.
Qui-Gon was the key to everything."

It's interesting that Plagueis had seen Qui-Gon as the danger, and not the boy he thought was prophesied to kill him. Was Qui-Gon the key because he was the only Jedi that staunchly believed Anakin was the Chosen One?

Based on the novel, here's a fan made video that re-enacts this moment (from 0:51 to 1:30).

After receiving this vision, I think it's possible Plagueis realised that Anakin was the strongest force-sensitive being that he had ever come across (even more so than Sidious), and he wanted him as an apprentice. Could you imagine being the one who, through dark side experiments, manipulated the force into creating the most powerful being in the galaxy, just to then let that potential go to waste?

If Plagueis wanted Anakin to realise his destiny, then the only way to make this happen, without jeopardising everything he and Sidious had done up to this point, was if he removed himself from events. This is because Plagueis would've understood that two apprentices just wouldn't work (Sidious wouldn't allow it), consequently he recognised that Sidious had to be the one to train Anakin. He couldn't afford to remove Sidious at the expense of Anakin, because Plagueis still needed a way to infiltrate the Republic.

On top of the Vader force vision, here are a few more passages from the novel that support this idea:

• "The Jedi routinely performed blood tests to verify the midi-chlorian counts of prospective trainees, but Plagueis had passed beyond the need for such crude measurements. He could not only sense the strength of the Force in another but also perceive the midi-chlorians that individualized Forceful beings. It was that dark side ability that had allowed generations of Sith to locate and initiate recruits."

• "Serenno,” Palpatine said, more to himself and mildly confounded. Damask hadn’t said anything about Jedi attending the meeting there. So what message was he sending now? Glancing at the trio of Jedi, he thought back to his Master’s remark that even Jedi could be turned to the dark. Had the near-bungled assassination of Vidar Kim persuaded Plagueis to entice and recruit a Jedi to serve as his apprentice?"

• "Plagueis pried the Bith’s thin hand from the fabric and grinned faintly. “Yes, Master, your death comes at my bidding. You said yourself that perpetuation with purpose is the way to victory, and so it is. Go to your grave knowing that you are last of the old order, the vaunted Rule of Two, and that the new order begins now and will for a thousand years remain in my control.”

• "Like Plagueis, Tenebrous had obviously embraced the fact that Darth Bane’s Rule of Two had expired. Precious few Sith Lords had honored it, in any case, and with good reason, as Plagueis saw it. The goals of the Grand Plan were revenge and the reacquisition of galactic power."

• "Plagueis locked eyes with him. “Consider the mind-set of an anarchist who plans to sacrifice himself for a cause. For the weeks, months, possibly years leading up to the day he straps a thermal detonator to his chest and executes his task, he has lived in and been strengthened by the secret he carries, knowing the toll his act will take. So it has been for the Sith, residing in a secret, sacred place of knowledge for one thousand years, and knowing the toll our acts will take. This is power, Sidious."

• "In a rare moment of compliment, the Bith had even said as much. In the same way that tectonic forces cause a boulder to plunge into a river, forever diverting its course, events give rise to individuals who, stepping into the current of the Force, alter the tide of history. You are such a one."

• "There! Plagueis thought. He admits it! And who better than a human to wear the mask of power while an immortal Sith Lord rules in secret!"

• Before Sidious murders him, Plagueis says"And to the new meaning we will tomorrow impart to the Rule of Two.”

• "Something was shading his sense of triumph: a vague awareness of a power greater than himself. Was it Plagueis reaching out from the far side of death to vex him? Or was the feeling a mere consequence of apotheosis? Outside, the summits of the tallest buildings were gilded by the first rays of daylight"

 

This is how I believe the creation of Snoke as a character occurred:

• 2011: Lucas decided to write a Sequel Trilogy. At the same time Luceno was writing the Darth Plagueis novel.
• 2011: Luceno contacts Lucasfilm and asks how they envision Plagueis to look. Lucas himself supplies Luceno with concept art of Darth Plagueis and a backstory - indicating that Lucas had given more thought to the character beyond what was required for Revenge of the Sith.
• 2012: In writing the treatments/story for the Sequel Trilogy, Lucas decides that the best way to continue the saga is with Plagueis as the big bad - bringing in the idea that he speaks of time and time again - that the Sith are the epitome of greed and the ultimate greed is eternal life. This also allows Lucas to continue the Chosen One story (with Plagueis as the creator) this connecting it with his PT and the story of Darth Vader. The fact that Lucas' last thought on Anakin's creation during the making of Revenge of the Sith was that he was created by the Sith - shows that this was his latest thought on the matter.
• 2012: Luceno releases his novel about Plagueis, containing the backstory that Lucas gave him. A backstory that very much links in with Lucas' PT stories (banking clans, links to Separatists etc etc).
• 2012: Lucas sells Star Wars and his treatments to Disney. Disney decide to scrap Lucas' story and do their own thing - likely because of the fallout of the PT. They believe they can do it better.
• 2012: Michael Arndt, who worked with Lucas, is dropped. He says he cannot write the story in any less than 18 months. JJ and LK come on board and begin writing the script.
• JJ and Kasdan think about who the villain could be, starting with the visual look and characteristics of the villain. At one point they think he could be a woman. But they run into trouble due to the balance of the Force storyline and having a character tie in with Darth Vader and the Skywalker story as a whole.
• JJ and Kasdan then go back to the Lucas treatments (that Lucas thinks were abandoned). They go with Lucas villain (that Arndt was using as well) and form their story around that. They still make other changes but not wholesale changes - the heart of it is still very much Lucas.
• They are continuing to design Snoke anyway but now base him upon Plagueis. His injuries and deformities make sense. This also ties in with why he was away from the action and didn't impact upon the balance of the Force. It explains where he gets his knowledge from. Like they have with other sources, they draw heavily upon the story from the novel which has now been de-canonised - allowing for a complete blank canvas for Plagueis. All that has been established is that Plagueis was Sidous' master, saved people from death and was supposedly killed in his sleep.

And what do we have with Snoke? A man who literally looks like he was massacred by a Sith Lord and rose from the dead. A being who is very knowledgeable and wise. Someone who would've hid in the shadows until his only competitor was destroyed. Someone who is essentially identical to Darth Plagueis.

The biggest issue in creating the ST was in dealing with this balance of the Force issue. The films made it clear that balance was restored. And the theme of balance is certainly being continued. They addressed it already in TFA. So how do they have it that the chosen one (Vader) achieved this yet someone was still around who has the might and power to be a truly satisfactory villain? The only answer is Plagueis. He is the only one that fits into the timeline without many questions being raised. Sidious severely wounded him and he is in a weakened state (just look at him!). Even now we know he is unprepared to face Luke - he is still in recovery. So this explains why he only emerges now and why he didn't impact balance. So why can't he be someone who predated Plagueis and Sidious with the same story?

Because if he existed in a time period of from Plagueis era to potentially 1000 yrs prior (balance was restored 1000yrs before TPM) then he was literally idle for that entire time not looking to do anything whilst the Jedi were in power or when the Sith took over. It's just too long a period. It's too long a time period to both survive (if he achieved Sith immortality hundreds if not thousands of years ago, surely others would have?) and then reclaim his strength. It's too convenient. But that is different with Plagueis. We know he is the first and last Sith to have saved people from death. We know he was the first and last to be able to create life. And thus we know he was likely the first and last achieve immortality. So it's understandable then that he sat back for a mere 50 years (opposed to 100-1000) whilst regaining his power and allowing his apprentice to enact his own plan.

What's more, Snoke is explained to have been around to watch the Empire rise and fall. Suggesting he was around to see the events of the PT and OT. Yet, that's all it says. It doesn't talk about important events prior to that. I mean, if he was 1000yrs old wouldn't he talk of being around to have witnessed the original Sith Empire? Or how the Jedi ruled for 1000 years? No, he is specific to the events that Darth Plagueis himself was directly involved in and witnessed.

 

Simply superb.

 

It seems you got the same rating, some members....really?

 

I apologize as I came late to this debate I cant find did anyone mentioned this:

Supreme Leader (Snoke) posts a challenge to Kylo Ren, to kill his own father, Han.

Darth Plagueis once posted a chellenge to Palpatine to kill his own father.