Darth Plagueis In The Sequel Trilogy.

The only reason why other theories about Snoke exist is spoiler ban, a Disney attempt to hold it "mystery".
If Pablo Hidalgo didn't said what he aparently did (beating around the bush) , nowone will ever think about other theories than Plagueis. It was first theory,months before film release, and its still by far strongest one.

This phenomenon is called intelectual vacuum.

Its like someone with the highest authority say that Earth is flat though all observational data proves its a ball.


This will deny all valid logic and observation, and people will start to lose their brains slowly. In this intelectual vacuum, a myriad of alternative models of physics will emerege, in attempt to fill the vacuum-to explain why the Earth inevitably looks as a ball but is, as it is said so, - flat.

. That kind of thing happend unfortunately with Plagueis and Snoke. Plagueis is 99.9% based on observation in film as as well on well established logic arguments and background of the character. Almost 100 % sure,and confirmed, if there will be no hints of denial from officials.

We have intelectual vacuum- and a explosion of alternative ideas who Snoke could be.

Thus we must live with this for some time unfortuntely.

 

Agreed^ I like your thinking

 

I'm back to drop this little nugget off. This started off as a tweet string about how Pablo doesn't like lightsaber forms. Then somebody made a comment about how a Jedi needs training to fight a Sith and...... We knew Kylo wasn't a Sith but Pablo said "no Sith in that movie...." I tweeted and IMMEDIATLEY got a response:



To all my valiant Pro DP fans, I am sorry to destroy your dreams. But who am I kidding? You guys are now gonna argue that he said ARE and not ARE OR EVER WERE. Anything to keep your hope alive So enjoy your delusions. I will be here if you need a shoulder to cry on

 

Lol didn't Pablo pretty indirectly say it a while ago that the Sith are dead/gone? At least it's been fully clarified now! I'm jealous he tweeted you...now if only I could figure out Twitter .

 

Indeed, this is firm evidence Snoke is not Plagueis.

Plagueis was a Sith. Snoke is not a Sith. Risky move by Disney, but, we will see.

This is purely arbitrary decision by Disney however, dont have anything with the plausibility, and we cant help it here.

The only problem from my point of view is to explain why they didnt said it directly.

From the standpoint of fairness and humanity I would beg Pablo to simply say Snoke is not Plagueis.There is no reason anymore to make a lough of people .

Snoke is not Plagueis. was it so hard to say? Why is this so hard to say?

 

Huh? I'm not sure what you're saying here. He said Kylo & Snoke "are not Sith". Plagueis wouldn't be Plagueis anymore. The Pro-Plagueis theory is that he is no longer a Sith. He left the order. He is doing his own thing. Wouldn't you after being fried by your apprentice, attaining a power no Sith has ever achieved and not truly going by the rule of 2? I mean, I've been arguing from day dot that Snoke isn't a Sith and how that doesn't mean he is not Plagueis. This isn't some new information that will shock any of us Plagueites to our core.

If you're saying Snoke wasn't ever a Sith then:

1. His extensive knowledge negates the need for Sith and Jedi Orders (to pass on knowledge) and makes many plot points seem ridiculous in the previous trilogies as these orders were shown to be the ONLY pathway to learning about the Force (to the degree the Sith and Jedi know it).
2. Snoke would've been around for potentially a thousand years, doing nothing whilst the Sith had their plan to take power, doing nothing whilst the Jedi were ripe for the taking (as the Sith proved) and doing nothing as the Jedi were destroyed and Sidious reigned. Conveniently, he only shows up when the last Sith is destroyed....
3. Why is there a mystery behind his character? Why not just reveal immediately who he is? Because he isn't anyone we have seen before so if he ain't a Sith of old, namely Plagueis, then there is no surprise. "I am Snoke, from the unknown regions where I have been doing nothing for hundreds of years but magically acquiring dark side knowledge". Oh, right. hello Mr Snoke. What a big shock that reveal is! Mystery over! *eyes rolling*
4. Then surely, as a Dark Sider, he would've been after power? And as an evil dark sider, surely he would've committed evil acts? We are shown how the Dark Siders/Sith only gain power after they commit evil so they can learn more Dark Side knowledge. Yet Snoke did this without being detected by the Jedi or Sith? Snoke was doing this, very conveniently, as the Sith were enacting their 1000yr old plan? And Snoke didn't impact upon the balance being restored?

Now Snoke being an ancient Sith beyond Plagueis I could, if a gun is held to my head, accept. It will be dull and a huge missed opportunity, but ok - whatever. But if Snoke hasn't even been a Sith, if he is entirely new then I will bow out of this trilogy and view it as a well made fan film series. It'll just be a massive retcon. A tacked on villain who has no real connected to any part of the saga we have seen so far.

ROTJ's ending was, after the PT, a definitive ending. This is a mythological tale about Darth Vader and his family. That's the story. The decision to go beyond that could potentially damage what is a rounded, whole, satisfactory tale that has a beginning, middle and end. Vader's journey ended. His hero journey ended. As did Luke's. The only way to continue this story without muddying the hero journey for those characters is by introducing a villain that has been the source of the conflict these characters have faced. Otherwise, the Skywalker saga will go on forever and ever with no logical conclusion. And do we really want that?

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 3, 2016, Original Post Date: Mar 3, 2016 ---

And I will say it again, Pablo has never outright confirmed Snoke isn't Plagueis. I've been in numerous debates with him and he just won't say it. He's happy to hint at it and make a few lame jokes, but he won't confirm it.

And I will say this again too - who knew outside of Lucas, Kershner, Kasdan and Hamill, that Vader was Luke's father in TESB? No one. Heck, Vader wasn't even made to be Luke's father until TESB started production!

Until there is official confirmation that Snoke isn't Plagueis, regardless what comes out of Pablo's mouth, I'll continue to argue for it. Pablo won't even confirm to me whether he knows who Snoke really is 100%! And like I say, I have had many tweets with this guy. But he won't confirm it. Chew on that.

 

I am not scared by Snoke not be Plagueis as much as I am honestly frightened Snoke is not Sith, but they used Plagueis traits for Snoke. They also used Sith test , Kylo ren kiling his own father. By this they, as we predicted unfortunately, destroyed the conections within SW saga. People actualy cant watch Revenge of the Sith as the pain will be to great to see how they pirated Plagueis traits. The problem is Plagueis is mentioned in prequel trology, and now they use its traits to create new character. In practice they count people would not watch prequels anymore, theorethical and practical Schism within saga.

Sad.

 

Something that stands out, when Palpatine related the legend of "Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise" to Anakin in Revenge of the Sith is this:

• "[Plagueis] had such a knowledge of the Dark Side, he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying."
• "[Plagueis] could save others from death, but not himself."

I'm wondering, in the context "of ones he cared about", if Snoke (if he is not Plagueis) could be someone Plagueis cared for: the son of Plagueis?

[Just a quick aside: it was interesting to hear a Sith speak of caring.]

Snoke would then not be a Sith, as his father would have left (and likely renounced) the Sith after Palpatine's betrayal.

Plagueis could have created Snoke long ago just as Plagueis might have created Anakin. Perhaps Snoke was Plagueis' first attempt, and Anakin was his later attempt thought to have been more successful.

But, more importantly, Snoke could then have the sufficient motivation, the requisite chronology, and desired depth of back story to have remained behind the scenes, witness the rise of the Empire, and learn all the Dark Side knowledge his father would teach.

Perhaps Plagueis did (as Yoda advised Luke to do) pass on what he had learned.

Then we have a rather promising possibility for a new character who is still connected with Plagueis but is neither a Sith nor Plagueis himself.

Snoke would then have the luxury of time, the broad knowledge of history of the Galactic Empire, and perhaps more importantly, because of Palpatine's betrayal of his father, the reason to allow the Empire crumble and let Palpatine's arrogance be his undoing.

Snoke would then also have a vested interest in the Skywalker lineage and have reason to fear their return based on possible warnings from father Plagueis.

This still does not explain Snoke's wounds, but perhaps that could be explained that he had an imperfect knowledge of the Dark Side to keep himself alive, or that his father Plagueis was no longer there to ward of the ravages of mortality.

This could then cause Snoke to rise from the shadows, form the First Order, assemble The Knights of Ren, and act primarily out of desperation as perhaps his only hope to stay alive, possibly transfer his mind/spirit -- or at the very least to pass on his father's knowledge -- would be to lure Ben Solo to the Dark Side and use him as a conduit for that Dark Side knowledge or as a new host he could then occupy as he continued his father's quest for immortality.

JediMasterRobert

 

Called it didn't I? You started your post with exactly the notion I said you would. Denial is a long and hard river to row against. But I wish you the best of luck

 

If Pablo said Snoke was never a Sith you might have a point. That would be denial. But all he has done is say what I and others have been saying for months! Snoke is not a Sith. Sidious "killed" Plagueis and took on a new apprentice. Sidious was THE master of the Sith order. So by default, if Plagueis did survive he wouldn't be part of that order any more! He wouldn't be a Sith.

I'm confused to why this is suddenly front page news today??

 

We're not confused though. Snoke isn't a darth so he's not Darth Plageuis or any other Darth so how should they reveal him as Darth Plagueis and have fans recognize him?

"Hey my name is Snoke, used to be called Darth Plagueis." Lame


"Hey I used to be Palptine's teacher"-Snoke
"You mean you're Darth Plagueis?"
"Er, uh, well not really, I mean used to be"-Snoke

That's a semantic argument at best and horrible in a movie. They would either stick with Sith and Darth Plagueis or there are no Sith and no more Darth anything. It is lame to say there are no Darths except for a former Darth who is now no longer a Darth because he feels like it. Crappy story telling.

Another order has come on scene and it's time to embrace it and be excited for somethings new

 

It is clear that Snoke has abandoned rule of 2. Knights of Ren are proof of that.

However once Sith is always a Sith. Before Darth Bane there was thousands of Sith, killing to frequently each other though, so Darth Bane introduced rule of 2, which was aimed at controll of self-destruction of the Sith , as well as it resulted in concentration of power in just 2 Sith at the time Master and Apprentice, and their power grown with each generation.

What I want to say, abandoning the rule of 2 is not abandonig the status of Sith, and Snoke if once been Sith has no practical reason not to stay and be named Sith even if training many Dark Knights, and even if changing some other practices. Trough the history the Sith had all kind of practices, once they even had empire of their own, their academy etc...and only for the last 1000 years (out of 6000 years of their formal existance) they embraced rule of 2.

Thus, if Pablo is not lying(there is no reason he would lie) unfortunately Snoke not being Sith means, and I hope Disney is aware of consequences, that after roughly 6000 years of Lucas Galaxy history (when Sith emerged on large galactic Stage as oposition to Jedi) we have Lord that is non-Sith wielder of the Dark side .

This means eather they dont know what they are doing, or more likely they scrapped entire Lucas Galaxy history literaly, finished with the Sith,and opened another Chapter for the purpose of been able to do anything they want.

The Force Awakens could be known amongst fans one day as: Great Star Wars Extinction.

 

This is kinda my thoughts on this matter (though Pablo's tweet does somewhat lessen my Plagueis conviction).
For instance, during TCW was Maul Sith? I'm not sure if there was ever an official declaration, but it was my understanding that he was not (or if he was, then it was a perverted offshoot brand).
I mean, Savage and Asajj obviously weren't (being outside the Sith structure), so I don't see why Maul (or Snoke) would be exempt to that as well.

 

They were all Sith or Sith in training. Asajj was training to be but never made it to full fledged Sith. Maul was a Sith and was thought dead. When Sidious found him again Maul tried to be Sidious' apprentice again but since he had taken his own apprentice, Sidious saw him as a rival Sith Lord trying to usurp the mantle of Master of the Sith.
After Sidious killed Opress, he tells Maul that the only truth of the Sith is that there can only be two and that he has been replaced.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 3, 2016, Original Post Date: Mar 3, 2016 ---

Also since both Sidious and Vader are dead, there is room for two Sith to usurp the title. If Snoke was Darth Plagueis, since Vader and Sidious are dead, he could easily claim mantle of Master of the Sith (especially since Plageuis was one), but instead we see Snoke as a non Sith. What could possibly be the reason for not taking the Master of the Sith title after Sidious is gone?

He doesn't have to follow the rule of two if he doesn't want to. After all the Sith didn't have it for 5/6ths of there existence. Also he could effectively change the Sith ideologies to whatever he wants (since, again, there are no other Sith to oppose his rule).

Makes no sense for Snoke not to be a Sith of he was indeed Darth Plagueis

 

I do not believe anymore Snoke is Plagueis.

It was clear arbitrary decision made by Disney and has nothing to do with the arguments and plausibility. Plagueis conects and solves entire saga, but also closes it. They want it open. They destroyed old canon for that purpose. Anything we knew about Sith and Jedi that was told to happened in 6000 years(and before that they were brothers in Force) does not count anymore.

I acknowledge Plagueis he is not.

And I say it here: Wrong move Disney.

 

*Sigh*

"I created your grandfather/father. I trained the Emperor".

For fans of the saga we'd know he was Plagueis. For newbies, they don't need to know his old name! They will realise the link when they watch rots. At no stage do I expect to hear the name Plagueis. The backstory of Snoke being that of Plagueis will be confirmation.

Snoke is a mystery. The official site implies more us to be revealed. As in the mystery will be explained. If he's new then there ain't no mystery!

I'd also suggest that "I'm Snoke, an ancient dark sider who was never a Sith, did nothing over 2 trilogies and emerged just as it seemed the baddies have been killed" is the lame option.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 3, 2016, Original Post Date: Mar 3, 2016 ---

1. He was killed by a Sith
2. Opposed rule of 2
3. Achieved power greater than any Sith.
4. Was un-Sithed and had to form a new philosophy/order/doctrine and so why move away from that and go back to being known as a Sith?
5. The Sith were defeated. Why align yourself with the name of the fallen, especially when trying to take over the remnants of the Empire?
6. Arrogance. He wants to create his own order. Not just be another Sith.
7. His philosophies might be radically different from the Sith now. We just don't know.

I could go on...

 

Except that the obvious jump from I created Vader/I trained Sidious is that Snoke is DARTH Plagueis. Which he can't be because no Sith, no Darths. And to say he dropped the title arbitrarily is dumb.

How bout "I'm Snoke, you won't get to know much about me at all, I am shrouded in mystery and all that really matters are my motivations. There will be tiny hints and amazing clues as to my possible origins but my full story might not be told til Episode IX, if at all. I will use the Dark side in a new and frightening way and Rian Johnson will write me as an amazing and well developed villain the likes of which Star Wars has yet to see. My possibilities are limitless. My beats are sick, I'm a shot caller and my SH1T don't stink!"

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 3, 2016, Original Post Date: Mar 3, 2016 ---

You could go on but it still won't make sense

 

Just explain then without contradicting the other films:

Where Snoke got his extensive dark side knowledge from?

What has he been doing for ip to a millennia?

Why didn't he impact the balance of the force?

How will he be some mega new Sith when he has seemingly hidden from the Jedi and Sith and only emerged when they're all but gone?

 

1) I don't really care all that much where he got his dark side knowledge but we do know that the Jedi and Sith are not the only, or oldest religions of the force so there are endless possibilities
2) Knitting, kayaking, skydiving, being a hermit, discovering dark side knowledge, ruling somewhere else, being a former Jedi, trapped in a prison or planet somewhere, cooking. Doesn't really matter to the story of the new trilogy
3) don't know. Probably won't be discussed at all in the new trilogy and probably will have no bearing on the story.
4) because that way it makes the movie work. That's how movies introduce villains. You can't retroactively add Snoke to the previous 6 films. Unless you want Lucas to do another special edition and throw Snoke in there somewhere. Hollywood hasn't invented time travel yet. Or he could be from somewhere outside the known Galaxy until recently. If he is thousands of years old, waiting 60 years for a better opportunity is like us waiting a few weeks for something

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 3, 2016, Original Post Date: Mar 3, 2016 ---

Also for all the times you've said Pablo probably doesn't know Snokes identity because he isn't part of the inside group:

 

Exactly my friend. - dissaster as we foreseen and feared of, has happened.

mr Pablo Hidalgo, Executive producer in Lucas film, one in charge for "Canon", confirmed that Snoke and Kylo arent Sith.

If anyone knows the consequences of what did he said by that ,or done by that ,its Pablo Hidalgo..

One can not be a Sith entire his life and became non-Sith by any circumstances, since Sith lived 6000 years in all the ways with all kinds of practices. So Snoke not been a Sith now means he never have been a Sith. Just abandoning rule of 2 doesn't mean he is not a Sith since Sith had even an Academy once. So Snoke being "dissapointed" or hurt or something doesnt mean he is no more a Sith, he would be a Sith that adapted a new way of doing things, which Sith made many time trough history. But still a Sith.

So Snoke is not and thus never was a Sith. Confirmed by Pablo Hidalgo.


And once, 7 milenia ago, all the Force users Once known as The brothers in the Force , have splitted into Jedi and Dark jedi, which became Sith. there was no place for third lineage of Force wielders that will acummulate power and knowledge over generations.

But Pablo just said they have such one in a new trilogy, and he obviously lived alongiside Jedi and Sith for decades, if not centuries.

This is absolute destruction of the basics of Lucas Universe, made by Disney. Entirely new canon.

Actualy we dont have any canon anymore! Pablo doesnt even want to talk about canon.Old canon is destroyed,but there is no new canon. Its a sandbox.

There is no any STAR WARS canon anymore!

Wrong move, a boomerang move.